60 replies to this topic

[Lyoto Machida]

Horrace, on 05 August 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

They already said ppc's were going to get heat increased by +1, that should fix everything. Not that there is anything to fix as the game is near perfect, but it should fix everything anyway. I'm fairly sure they said there is a carefully thought up balance plan that they are steadily and slowly following.

The alternative would be making crazy changes with little thought or logic behind them and we really don't want that do we?

+1 heat fixing everything...hahaha. I always love your PPC posts.

[ztac]

Yeah nerf the PPC , but why not nerf the Gaus? After all it is the Gaus that is creating the problem. When my mechs get killed it is allways AC fire that has done the damage or a GAUS and AC ... seldomly do I see the oh so powerful PPC as the culprit. The real problem is that people just don't test weapon effectiveness , go play on the training grounds with different weapons and see just what it takes to kill the mechs there , you might come away thinking the PPC is not so powerful after all. If the real problem is sniping then maybe the 4x zoom module should be removed from the game? This idea no doubt requires you to charge your weapon , release, cooldown, and repeat.

[Grey Ghost]

We complained heavily about Dual Gauss in the closed beta (couldn't even mount an XL engine with that build back then), and that does only 5 less damage than 2xPPC+Gauss. Even if you nerfed PPC's into the ground, a lot of people would probably just shift back to that. Though only the two 65 ton & the 70 ton Mech can do that currently, which would probably be easier to deal with.

The only way I can see pinpoint damage becoming less prevalent would be to make all Energy & Ballistic (minus LBX, MG) weapons do their damage in pulses. So maybe PPC's become more like lightning lasers that work like a Large Pulse Laser does right now, and have Ballistics fire in bursts. Though a Gauss firing in bursts might be a little weird I guess, so maybe it should just have adjustments to it's Damage / Rate of Fire / Ammo count etcetera.

Honestly though, as long as the Dev's can keep the game balanced to be mostly fun to play I'll be satisfied.

[Joseph Mallan]

The real fix for PPCs is to stop bringing more than 3. More then 3 creates an upset stomach.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

C12AZyED, on 05 August 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Nothing is stopping you from doing that, its just more difficult to do.

So it solves nothing. You think the people who are just picking up the game are the ones murdering everything in sight with Gauss+PPC? No, its those users who have the skill sets to pull something off like that. Nothing changes other than making the weapon HARDER for the lower end to use, while the higher skill populous has one more edge on them.

[Lightfoot]

Purlana, on 05 August 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Why would you use an Awesome as a PPC platform when you have the stalker or highlander?

We're working on it.

Edited by Lightfoot, 05 August 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

PPC is fine, just needs more heat. heat linking ppc/gauss would be enough to fix the problem.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Yes I really, REALLY like that idea.

+like from me.

[Joseph Mallan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 05 August 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

PPC is fine, just needs more heat. heat linking ppc/gauss would be enough to fix the problem.

Just give PPCs TT heat should be enough.

[Aim64C]

Khobai, on 05 August 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

This idea falls into the same category as ECM and heat penalties. Its too complicated for its own good. And a simpler solution would not only be better but also make the game more enjoyable.

It's such a difficult and complicated mechanic, hated by gaming communities everywhere.

Torque Bow.

Spartan Laser.

BFG9000.

Because things that don't fire the moment we depress a button are too complicated and no one will be able to figure out how to use it.

Just because a housecat has more tactical savvy than you does not mean the whole gaming population is in the same boat.

Mr Bigglesworth, on 05 August 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

I think the correct question is, Do they currently use PPC, and would they continue to use it.

I use the PPC, among other weapons, all the time. I'm one of the first people to start recommending this change for the PPC (at least in recent history).

Joseph Mallan, on 05 August 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

The real fix for PPCs is to stop bringing more than 3. More then 3 creates an upset stomach.

At least one variant of the Awesome, the Masakari, and a few others look at this and laugh before stripping off 40-60 points of armor.

mwhighlander, on 05 August 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

So it solves nothing. You think the people who are just picking up the game are the ones murdering everything in sight with Gauss+PPC? No, its those users who have the skill sets to pull something off like that. Nothing changes other than making the weapon HARDER for the lower end to use, while the higher skill populous has one more edge on them.

The truth is that some of these people wouldn't be able to do much if the only weapon in the game were AC2s with unlimited ammo.

It's not necessarily the "new people" that suck. It tends to be a bracket.

Again - this gameplay mechanic already exists in several other games. Those games even allow those weapons to be instant-kill and multi-kill weapons. The "charge and release" mechanic is not, at all, overly complicated. For the purposes of MWO, though, the charge time would be considerably less than what most of those examples use (and allow for partial discharge at reduced damage).

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 05 August 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

PPC is fine, just needs more heat. heat linking ppc/gauss would be enough to fix the problem.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Joseph Mallan, on 05 August 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Just give PPCs TT heat should be enough.

It hasn't been enough in previous MechWarriors that went so far as hardpoint restrictions and doubling armor values.

And that was when lasers were contact-damage hitscans and autocannons were about three times as fast as the ones we have in this game (not to mention the gauss).

[Joseph Mallan]

40-60 points of damage to doubled armor, so it is hitting as hard as 2-3 PPCs on TT using a Targeting Computer.Like I haven't seen that. And I have a Stone Rhino design that does 75 damage per Alpha (+3 heat per Alpha) and it is respected as a good build... not cheese.

I used Large Pulse in previous MWs cause heat was to high with ERPPCs, and Pulses had better it detection. I also liked the feel of those other MW titles.

[Troutmonkey]

You've made the charge mechanic too complicated, as PPCs on chain fire wouldn't work with this method.

Just make it like Halo's Spartan Laser - Hold to charge, when it becomes fully charged it automatically fires. Releasing the trigger before the weapon is fully charged will cause it to not fire.
Releasing the mouse will also move on to fire the next weapon in the chain-fire group.

This would actually give the PPC some unique flavour as a weapon, while simultaneously changing it from a snap fire weapon to a more pre-meditated one. No more peek and pop, unless you're clever enough to start charging the weapon before you emerge from cover, and then you have to know where the enemy is.

I fully support PPCs receiving the above treatment.

[Roadbuster]

Aim64C, on 05 August 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 05 August 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

PPC is fine, just needs more heat. heat linking ppc/gauss would be enough to fix the problem.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

That idea isn't as bad as it sounds if you think about it.
Linking Gauss with PPCs would mean that if you fire 2 PPC + Gauss together you get a penalty. And because PPC is the weapon with the highest heat output this would mean you get the penalty heat of the PPCs.

So instead of 16 heat from the PPCs (18 heat after patch) this would produce 26,08 heat (29,34 heat after patch)

Not that bad.

I think PGI should try different things besides increasing heat. I'd like to try a firing delay for PPCs.

EDIT: Took me 3 attempts to post these lines. Got logged out, database error and blank page. Please fix your page.

Edited by Roadbuster, 05 August 2013 - 11:55 PM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Mr Bigglesworth, on 05 August 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

I think the correct question is, Do they currently use PPC, and would they continue to use it.

No. I don't use the ppc. I had one build that used one ppc but I sold the mech some time ago.

But while I don't use it myself I'm fair enough to not demand to nerf it so hard that other players wont use it ever again.

A general note: I did not say that the charge mechanic would do that. I quoted Rengakun who demanded to add more heat AND slower firing rate to the ppc...

[C12AZyED]

mwhighlander, on 05 August 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

So it solves nothing. You think the people who are just picking up the game are the ones murdering everything in sight with Gauss+PPC? No, its those users who have the skill sets to pull something off like that. Nothing changes other than making the weapon HARDER for the lower end to use, while the higher skill populous has one more edge on them.

The charge on the PPC is an easy to understand principle, a sound effect to indicate the weapon is charging up aswell as an animation on the PPC make it clear how the weapon operates. New players if they have any modicum of comprehension, should easily be able to pick up on this! Thus, they will get used to the weapon, as higher end players will, and I do not recognise where the disparity of understanding you are mentioning could come from.

Edited by C12AZyED, 06 August 2013 - 01:56 AM.

[C12AZyED]

Troutmonkey, on 05 August 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

You've made the charge mechanic too complicated, as PPCs on chain fire wouldn't work with this method.

I fully support PPCs receiving the above treatment.

Right there is the first reasonable and valid criticism I have heard so far. Thankyou. Let me see if I can come up with a solution.

Chain Fire Scenario 1:

Player has 3 PPCs prepped and ready to go. Wants to fire them consecutively, not simultaneously. How do the account for this in the controls?

Chain-Fire Weapon Toggle

The best solution is that they add a unique new control/key binding that specifically locks all your weapon groups into chain fire (including our 3XPPC charged group example). A bit like arm lock toggle, it could be a toggle that simply means whatever weapons are fired next are done so in a chain. Press this toggle button before or during charge time, and once you release Left Mouse Button(default fire button) only 1 PPC will come out, after that you'll have to click to release the other 2 PPCs.

Press the toggle button again afterwards and all your weapon groups will no longer be in chain fire mode...simple.

Edited by C12AZyED, 06 August 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[C12AZyED]

Aim64C, on 05 August 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

It's such a difficult and complicated mechanic, hated by gaming communities everywhere.

Torque Bow.

Spartan Laser.

BFG9000.

Because things that don't fire the moment we depress a button are too complicated and no one will be able to figure out how to use it.

I use the PPC, among other weapons, all the time. I'm one of the first people to start recommending this change for the PPC (at least in recent history).


At least one variant of the Awesome, the Masakari, and a few others look at this and laugh before stripping off 40-60 points of armor.

Again - this gameplay mechanic already exists in several other games. Those games even allow those weapons to be instant-kill and multi-kill weapons. The "charge and release" mechanic is not, at all, overly complicated. For the purposes of MWO, though, the charge time would be considerably less than what most of those examples use (and allow for partial discharge at reduced damage).

Hehe, your initial sarcasm made me think you were against against the proposal at first, I was glad to see you are a supporter of the charged PPC mechanic. Yes, you make very good point by using Halo as an example. Both the Plasma Pistol and the Spartan Laser use a charge mechanic, and both weapons are extremely viable, popular and easy to understand!



The Plasma Pistol even begins to slowly leach ammo when held in charge mode, which is slightly similar to the(optional) "Heat-Creep" mechanic I suggested, where instead holding the PPCs once charged slowly starts to build heat on your 'Mech, pressuring the Pilot to eventually release them.

[McQuackers]

Alright, the issue of 'charge and release' that I take umbrage with is that it's quite possibly the least effective way to change PPCs. People won't be walking around with fully charged PPCs, waiting to find an enemy mech. They'll spot a mech in the distance, notice it on seismic, or have it spotted by a friendly, and charge accordingly. Your heat-creep mechanic would be pointless. The only thing that would make people hold onto a fully charged PPC would be if it took prohibitively long to charge (5 seconds), and in that case, no one would use PPCs.

As it stands, PPCs have a 4 second recycle time. Assuming that holds, then you're effectively adding a 2 second recycle penalty to PPCs and, in that case, pretty much no one will use them. 6 second wait for 10 damage? Not viable.

If you dropped it to a 3 second recycle time and a 2 second charge, that's effectively just increasing the recycle time to 5 seconds. Assuming someone actually wanted to fire it at 4 seconds for 5 damage (which is just asinine), they'd be getting a large amount of heat for what is essentially a MLAS's worth of damage. Sure, that damage has extreme range, but the heat/damage payoff isn't worthwhile. No one (except newbs) would use PPCs in this case.

Lastly, the charge mechanic has no basis in MechWarrior/BattleTech. It reeks of arcade play and clumsy balancing.

This is not a fix by any means; it's just an artificial restriction to try and keep PPCs behaving normally. Want to fix PPCs? Bump their heat. Bump their recycle time. Whatever. Trying to change how they work is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Steel Claws]

No I know.... How about we all shoot spit balls and use harsh language at each other. Stop. Just Stop. All this crying about things that aren't broken - even if you think so (and that doesn't make it true). As for the PPC, next patch it gets nerfed so quit crying about it already.

[Khrull]

Charging the PPC is how MechAssault 1 & 2 worked and nobody complained. Bumping up the heat is a nerf. In contrast, charging the PPC is a solid game mechanic, which adds strategy.