45 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

With the introduction of the KTO is pretty clear PGI's design philosophy when it comes to hitboxes is becoming more and more flawed.

Honestly it's down right XXXXXXX stupid.



The entirety of this mech is nothing but CT.

Even if the mech had a abnormally large ct that should be acceptable, but due to the way PGI does there hitboxes it becomes disastrous and a bad design.

This is simply because of the Pelvis / Hip area. This is where the entirety of the problem is. Even if the KTO did have a bigger ct the Pelvis area makes it massive by making it 33% bigger. It's even worse when you look at Rear CT.

The Pelvis / Hip hitbox needs to be fixed.

The KTO should be closer to looking like this:



What we have here is the Pelvis / Hip split between the Legs. There is a reason mechs have Hip Accurators, it's because they are in the hip. Shooting the hip shouldn't do damage to the CT.

Another example:




This brings us to the 2nd part that is high on my list of stupid. The Legs.

The only way it should be possible to kill a mech is by destroying it's Engine or head location. PERIOD.

Which means we have to address what's wrong with the current system for destroyed legs.

1. Destroying a leg location should reduce the mech to 15% speed for 5 secs initially. Once that 5 seconds is over the mech is permanently reduced to 50% speed. Additional hits on the damaged leg will not effect the speed at all but still transfer damage.

2. Destruction of both leg locations knocks the mech down. Once the mech gets back up speed is permanently reduced to 15% speed. Additional hits on the destroyed legs does not affect speed but still transfers damage.

Doing this will make mechs more durable. And since PGI is unable or unwilling to fix pin point convergence making more intelligent hitboxes is an absolute must, very much so in a 12v12 environment.

Because as it is now I can't help but feel it's stupid and needs fixed.

-Crow

Edited by Carrioncrows, 10 August 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Agree about the Hitboxes on the Kintaro because your example of how they should be is what I thought they were going to be. Totally disagree on the leg thing. In most MW games, taking out a single mech destroyed the mech. Here you have to take out both of them and that isn't that easy or efficient to do on anything but a light mech and taking out the first leg on a light isn't exactly easy either.

[Carrioncrows]

Viktor Drake, on 06 August 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Agree about the Hitboxes on the Kintaro because your example of how they should be is what I thought they were going to be. Totally disagree on the leg thing. In most MW games, taking out a single mech destroyed the mech. Here you have to take out both of them and that isn't that easy or efficient to do on anything but a light mech and taking out the first leg on a light isn't exactly easy either.

Those MW games where wrong because the A. didn't want to take the time to do it correctly, or B. didn't have the technology to do it correctly.

Destroying a mechs legs doesn't kill it.

The only thing that kills a mech is destroying the engine or killing the pilot. That's it.

In TT you lose both legs you are not out of the fight, hell you can still even attempt to stand up and move with blown out legs and even shoot while on the ground.

Doing it correctly makes mech more survivable and adds more durability to it.

Making mechs easy to crack but hard to kill. Light mechs won't be such a death trap and even if you do get legged your still in the fight until the moment they kill your engine, even if they take both of em.

PGI has the tools already in place to make this possible, it just needs to be implemented.

Mechs should never be easy to kill. Maybe easier to cripple, easier to blow off locations, but always harder to kill. The above suggestions will do nothing but elevate the gameplay.

Simply put this is needed and should of been in the game from the get go.

EDIT:
Once you get one leg destroyed on a mech, the rest of the mech goes really quickly because there is no way to mitigate damage. The issue being that on these mechs with massive CT's there isn't a whole lot you can do to mitigate the damage anyways so there needs to be less CT and that hip / pelvis area needs to go.

At least if you do lose a leg or legs it lets the pilot continue to fight. The above change instantly fixes a lot of the issues with the Quickdraw and all the other light mechs. Losing a leg might still be a death sentence but at least you'll go down swinging and destroying a light mech by legging it may still be the best way to kill it, but it affords the pilot of that light mech every opportunity to fight back before the engine or pilot is destroyed.

And that's a good thing.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 06 August 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[Khobai]

XL engines are another issue. Being able to aim specifically for XL engines makes them significantly worse in MWO than in tabletop. For that reason, I do not think a mech with an XL engine should be destroyed when one of its side torsos is destroyed. You should be required to get four engine critical hits to destroy an XL engine (destroying a side torso would only give you 3 engine critical hits and you would still need a 4th). Clan XL would work the same way but require 6 engine critical hits instead of 4 because Clan XL is more durable.

I also agree shooting off legs should not destroy a mech. This is 2013. PGI can make an animation for a mech hobbling around with two broken legs. Stop being lazy.

and lastly center torso bias is a huge problem. Everybody aims for center torso because its so easy to hit and kills a mech way faster than it should. Center and side torsos are not armored enough to handle the pinpoint damage mechs are capable of in MWO. PGI needs to increase internals or implement some kindve damage reduction for torso sections... maybe the damage reduction can go away after an arm or leg is shot off to add incentive to shooting off limbs.

So like... an intact arm and leg might give 10% damage reduction each to their adjacent side torso (total 20% DR). And each intact side torso might give 10% damage reduction to the center torso (total 20% DR). So as long as the mech's limbs are intact the mech is gets damage reduction. That's sort of the same thing as damage spreading out across a mech randomly in tabletop. And it makes sense destroying the arm/leg would partially compromise the integrity of the side torso.

Edited by Khobai, 06 August 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries allowed for glorious ground fighting. If you lost a leg, you could keep on fighting! You'd fall over and land on your back or torso, but with jump jets you could attempt to get back up. Not only that, you could use a few keyboard commands to slew your view up at angles you normally wouldn't fight in to hit people while lying on your belly. It was awesome. Never has ground fighting been done so well. In fact, once you lost your first leg, a common tactic was to keep re-positioning your torso while lying on your belly so the enemy couldn't hit your remaining leg.

The only flaw with the whole system in that game was if you lost both legs, you blew up. Other than that, since 1996 we have yet to see gameplay as good and that's really sad.

[Carrioncrows]

I was really looking forward to this mech, but at this point with the hit boxes the KTO is: UNPLAYABLE

Sure it works as long as nobody shoots at you, but the moment they do shoot: every damn bit of incoming fire hits that Massive CT or Massive RCT.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Like somone else pointed out, the Mechlab is not a reliable indication of in-game hitboxes.

The Catapult shows the ENTIRE canopy as the head in the Mechlab, and in-game it is a small amount of the center glass.

Still, I am curious to see if a lot of complaints roll in about this (especially once the free variants hit the Mechlab).

[Intruder]

MeiSooHaityu, on 07 August 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

Like somone else pointed out, the Mechlab is not a reliable indication of in-game hitboxes.

The Catapult shows the ENTIRE canopy as the head in the Mechlab, and in-game it is a small amount of the center glass.

Still, I am curious to see if a lot of complaints roll in about this (especially once the free variants hit the Mechlab).

Did they ever: there's an entire thread entitled "Kintaro: the walking CT".

[Roadbuster]

I like the idea of mechs still being able to do something even with 2 destroyed legs.
I also support the idea of increasing armor and internal hitpoint values for the torso regions.

Longer fights where taking out an arm or side torso is more effective than just going for the core would be a big improvement for gameplay.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Intruder, on 07 August 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Did they ever: there's an entire thread entitled "Kintaro: the walking CT".

I'm affraid I don't understand your response? I was pointing out that the Mechlab hitboxes don't equate to the game's hitboxes. And, yes, I have seen other threads.

Besides, is this more of an issue than on the Catapult and the Cataphract (and countless others). To me it seems like a LOT of mechs in this game have rather large CTs.

If the game does make the CT as large as the Mechlab does show, then I am with the posters on this one. The Mechlab's representation of the CT is HUGE.

[General Taskeen]

Well its good at the least the consensus of the communities is that hitboxes in general across most Mechs really need to be addressed. "Double Armor" after all was to make "matches last longer" to "live longer," but even that doesn't help when mech weight classes are out of proporition (thus easier to hit) or their hitbox area's completely hinder them as to be useless.

The XL Engine is also something people are finally bringing up. While "interesting" in the way it is intrepretated, for game play purposes there has to be something better that can be done. Locking the torso twist into its last position when the torso is destroyed or completely slowing down the Mech and Mech Torso Twist when it happens instead. Just throwing idea's out there.

[PoLaR]

I've expressed how I feel about this a few times to you Carrioncrows.

I am In total agreement. Hit detection field needs to be changed.. please make this 'Mech playable. My Blackjack which Is 10 tons lighter can outplay this Kintaro any day. Brawling Is pretty much out of the question right now. I am dumb-struck how this 'Mech made It through testing phases In It's current state..

Please PGI! Hear our plead!

[Carrioncrows]

MeiSooHaityu, on 07 August 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

I'm affraid I don't understand your response? I was pointing out that the Mechlab hitboxes don't equate to the game's hitboxes. And, yes, I have seen other threads.

I'm not using the using the mechlab as a reference for the CT.

You are thinking this:




We know this doesn't represent the actual CT of the Mech.

Let me sum up the entirety of the issue with the KTO and hit boxes in general.

This is the issue with the KTO, scale and hit boxes.

This is how they are in Game right now.




This is what all hitboxes should look like:



This just isn't for the KTO, all mechs should have their pelvis / hip hitboxes split between the legs and not bound to CT.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 07 August 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Devilsfury]

This mech is unplayable at its current form. You have it 100% correct on the CT. Out of about 20+ matches, I have been CT probably 19 of those. This thing really sucks right now!

[General Taskeen]

Carrioncrows, on 07 August 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

I'm not using the using the mechlab as a reference for the CT.

You are thinking this:




We know this doesn't represent the actual CT of the Mech.

Let me sum up the entirety of the issue with the KTO and hit boxes in general.

This is the issue with the KTO, scale and hit boxes.

This is how they are in Game right now.




This is what all hitboxes should look like:



This just isn't for the KTO, all mechs should have their pelvis / hip hitboxes split between the legs and not bound to CT.

I agree.

I have wanted this for a long time and hitboxes need to be balanced and uniform across all mechs in the way they are drawn on the model itself. For hitboxes with huge torso's, like say a Hunchback-4G, that needs be addressed to in some way.

After that or before the sizing of Mech weight classes also needs to be addressed, as it directly correlates to how fast they die.

[Tennex]

still waiting for this thread to be updated

http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/

[Tennex]

Carrioncrows, on 07 August 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

This just isn't for the KTO, all mechs should have their pelvis / hip hitboxes split between the legs and not bound to CT.

Jagermech is a horrible example of how hitbox should be.

its impossible to run XL on because of how big the R/L torso is. and once you lose the R/Ltorso you lose half your weapons since most of its armaments are loaded on the arms.

[Carrioncrows]

Tennex, on 07 August 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Jagermech is a horrible example of how hitbox should be.

its impossible to run XL on because of how big the R/L torso is. and once you lose the R/Ltorso you lose half your weapons since most of its armaments are loaded on the arms.

I don't have an issue with that.

You are trading lower weight for more vulnerabilities.

XL is a calculated risk.

That comes with the whole personal design choices. Some people feel that running an XL makes them too fragile in some mechs other people feel just the opposite. The only clear cut mech that I would consider an XL a no go is the stalker.

Everything else is fair game based upon your own preference.

There has to be some upside to running a Standard Engine. There has to be some reason to run it. And that reason is you need to kill the Ct to kill the engine.

Or else why not just have every mech come with: Endo, Double heat Sinks, XL Engine.

99% of time everyone's first move after they buy a mech is to put Endo and DHS on their mech so why not just include it in the cost.

Well theoretically it's to promote build diversity.

So having all pro's and no cons, or at least no significant con's, well that just creates stagnate min / max builds.

Long story short, it's a risk, but a justifiable one to most people.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 07 August 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[AaronWolf]

I personally would love to see the "Lose both legs and die" thing go away, and it more resemble TT in that fashion. And Hitboxes get a little love. Since it's not just the KTO. If they can't do that, they need to find another solution!

[Kanjejou]

Well I personally would totally be for the "all mechs should have their pelvis / hip hitboxes split between the legs and not bound to CT." seriously maybe we will stop seing mech getting cored by being shoot in the pelvis its ridiculous giroscope are here for that....

It would help mediums/lights mech a lot... and a good resizing of every medium mech could be good too...

Edited by Kanjejou, 07 August 2013 - 01:06 PM.