129 replies to this topic

[travelbug]

so ive played a few games today and noticed many things that have been said in these forums.
but of all the big changes, 12v12 makes group play almost mandatory.

sp pugging in 8v8 was not easy as well, but with enough skill, you could change the tide of battle even without communication with your teammates. the same cant be said with 12v12. seldom will one mech acting alone make a difference. and if your team or lance isnt moving towards the same direction or focus firing then the game has actually ended after the initial salvo.

sure, i have had some good wins in sp pugging with 12v12 and sure we will all learn better ways to deal with as we get used to the system. that system however does not favor the single player and winning has become more of a cr#pshoot depending on whether you actually have some premades in your group you can follow or someone who knows what hes doing actually takes command.

and woe to the new player who is limited to trial mechs. with the increased firepower and defensive meta, i can see noobs getting torn to bits in mere seconds after initial engagement. add to this the smaller cbill gain and horrible framerates; and i believe pgi has just made the game impossible to pick up for the new player.

i really dont know what the stats are, but my guess is that at least half the mwo population are sp puggers and this current meta is just a blow to them. it was placed to appease the well formed groups and clans who can more easily bear down their strenghts in such an environment. and they may even be in the vocal minority if the way i see it is correct,

Edited by travelbug, 07 August 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Sasha Volkova]

Single player pugging was dead when they put in ELO.

Simply since a good player will now have a clueless n00b around his ankle whenever he drops.
He will also most likely face two average players so his n00b will die quickly and then he will be outnumbered.

ELO sure is making this game fun to play from a SP PUG point of view...

[Eisenhorne]

Over 22 games yesterday, I have a 40% win rate, with a 4.25 K/D.

One player can't make a difference... no matter how many mechs I kill my teammates all rambo out into the open and get instantly cut down.

[Rascula]

It doesn't look to good for puggers at the moment this is true, but there are things we can do to help.

Firstly Id recommend every new player to get on teamspeak and group up with the guys on there, it really does make this game a lot more fun.
Secondly If your new don't be afraid to ask for help, the community here is excellent at giving advice and were more than willing to help!
And lastly, don't forget the game is still not realised yet, so things can and will change.. Hopefully for the better!

[travelbug]

0okami, on 07 August 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Single player pugging was dead when they put in ELO.

Simply since a good player will now have a clueless n00b around his ankle whenever he drops.
He will also most likely face two average players so his n00b will die quickly and then he will be outnumbered.

ELO sure is making this game fun to play from a SP PUG point of view...

in 8v8 the good player had the opportunity to turn it around though as one mech made more of a difference then. for example, since palyers were more spread out, he could duel the two average players one on one and come out on top. in this meta there is no such thing as a one on one duel.

also 12v12 punishes small situational awareness errors. if that noob stepped out in the open, he woul likely get focus fired by five mechs and die without knowing what happened. in the old system, he would still have time to maybe seek cover or run away.

im a new player myself and the initial grind was tough. but i remember some good hearted players telling me not to quit and the going gets easier later on. i know one thing for sure, if this was the meta i would be playing as a new player, i see no way for me to continue grinding, let alone enjoying the game. it would just be too tough.

[aniviron]

It's not early enough to say for sure, but this is a reasonable approximation of what I've seen so far in this game, and in most other games to boot.

The downside to 12v12 is that one player makes much less of a difference to the team, and so it will be rare to see one brave/foolish brawler flank and take out the LRMs from behind now, or rather, even rarer than it used to be.

The upside is that one player makes much less of a difference to the team, and so one really good (or really bad) player won't have the opportunity to make a game completely lopsided by winning a 2v1 (or charging off and dying, while exposing the rest of the team) and so games are likely to be closer. There are more players, which has always helped to reduce the impact of very good and very bad players on the game, and the results are closer, even if not necessarily more fun for a good player. It's been this way is almost every shooter I've played online.

[Redshift2k5]

I've still played the majority of my games as a pug, and it's been fine.

[travelbug]

Rascula, on 07 August 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

It doesn't look to good for puggers at the moment this is true, but there are things we can do to help.

Firstly Id recommend every new player to get on teamspeak and group up with the guys on there, it really does make this game a lot more fun.

but thats exaclty my point without ts or skype it becomes a sad experience almost. there are many reasons people wont go on ts- there could be a language barrier, spouse or chiildren sleeping while you play, etc. and even if i group drop, i enjoy the sp pugging experience immensely. and for people like that, there seems to be little place for us in the current meta.

i dont intend to scare away nor discourage new players, since this is what this game sorely needs. but every move, every change that pgi has made recently(heat scaling, heat grouping, etc) just seem to make the game more and more inaccessible to the new player.

[Proxzerk]

travelbug, on 07 August 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

...
also 12v12 punishes small situational awareness errors. if that noob stepped out in the open, he woul likely get focus fired by five mechs and die without knowing what happened. in the old system, he would still have time to maybe seek cover or run away.
...

Out of the 10 drops last night, I would say that this is the number one thing I have noticed, if you get yourself in trouble there are now more roving packs of more mechs to focus fire on you. Less room for noobin' it up.

As a player that has been playing since January, I have to say that once the learning curve period over, I don't see much difference from 8v8 to 12v12. There are more targets now and as long as you are not trying to be a hero, you should have the same amount of success as before... At least that's what my stat tracking seems to indicate in addition to the general feel of the drops; out of 10 drops probably 5 of them were with my unit in a full comm lance.

[Sam Slade]

travelbug, on 07 August 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

in 8v8 the good player had the opportunity to turn it around though as one mech made more of a difference then.

This is very true. I'm not a good player, have a crap computer and play with a HORRIBLe ping... but I was stupidly lucky in one of my first 12 man games... killing an Atlas, 2x Stalkers and a Victor in my Victor... before walking face first into a Gaussjager(dead me). Looked at smoking ruin thinking "we've totally got this"...

So the rest of my team got picked apart in scrappy and un co-ordinated fights.. we lost, I was first on my team to die. Puglife is hard but for 12 mans we NEED tonnage and a premades only que for ALL premades.

[Blalok]

While I agree it looks bad for solo puggers, I think it's still too early to tell. Give it a week for the meta to fully adjust.

I saw some good attempts at coordination last night, and was much encouraged by the way everyone seemed to get that this was going to be more of a defensive match now, even without it being said.

Where I think this is headed:
It's going to demand more discipline - I saw many instances of squirrel syndrome, only to have my teammates lead into the waiting crossfire of mechs under ECM coverage. Gonna need actual scouts who can cut ECM.

LRMs are rampant in this initial phase; I'll be curious to see if that holds up.

[travelbug]

aniviron, on 07 August 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

It's not early enough to say for sure, but this is a reasonable approximation of what I've seen so far in this game, and in most other games to boot.

The downside to 12v12 is that one player makes much less of a difference to the team, and so it will be rare to see one brave/foolish brawler flank and take out the LRMs from behind now, or rather, even rarer than it used to be.

The upside is that one player makes much less of a difference to the team, and so one really good (or really bad) player won't have the opportunity to make a game completely lopsided by winning a 2v1 (or charging off and dying, while exposing the rest of the team) and so games are likely to be closer. There are more players, which has always helped to reduce the impact of very good and very bad players on the game, and the results are closer, even if not necessarily more fun for a good player. It's been this way is almost every shooter I've played online.

agree. but if its not fun for the sp good player and neither is it fun for the sp new player, then what does the new meta accomplish?

Proxzerk, on 07 August 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Out of the 10 drops last night, I would say that this is the number one thing I have noticed, if you get yourself in trouble there are now more roving packs of more mechs to focus fire on you. Less room for noobin' it up.

As a player that has been playing since January, I have to say that once the learning curve period over, I don't see much difference from 8v8 to 12v12. There are more targets now and as long as you are not trying to be a hero, you should have the same amount of success as before... At least that's what my stat tracking seems to indicate in addition to the general feel of the drops; out of 10 drops probably 5 of them were with my unit in a full comm lance.

well i think youre experience seems a bit more positive because you played half those games with teammates. try pugging for the whole night. as eisenhorne said above, most of the time, no matter how good you play as an individual, it hardly matters if your team isnt coordinating anything.

Edited by travelbug, 07 August 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[Padic]

0okami, on 07 August 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Single player pugging was dead when they put in ELO.

Simply since a good player will now have a clueless n00b around his ankle whenever he drops.
He will also most likely face two average players so his n00b will die quickly and then he will be outnumbered.

ELO sure is making this game fun to play from a SP PUG point of view...

I am pretty sure that this is not how Elo works. It is trying to match players of a similar Elo together, not match good players with bad players to meet an "average Elo" target.

Why would they ever code it to act that way? Just to troll you, specifically?

[travelbug]

Sam Slade, on 07 August 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

This is very true. I'm not a good player, have a crap computer and play with a HORRIBLe ping... but I was stupidly lucky in one of my first 12 man games... killing an Atlas, 2x Stalkers and a Victor in my Victor... before walking face first into a Gaussjager(dead me). Looked at smoking ruin thinking "we've totally got this"...

So the rest of my team got picked apart in scrappy and un co-ordinated fights.. we lost, I was first on my team to die. Puglife is hard but for 12 mans we NEED tonnage and a premades only que for ALL premades.

i agree with this, pugging and maybe premades of 2 or 3 can be grouped together but 4 man premades should have their own cue.

[Koniving]

Actually when they put in ELO, for me single player pugging became viable. Then again I deliberately sink my score by using stock mechs -- but even then sometimes I just soar upwards instead of tanking down.

However, I gotta say last night the two best games I had were...

The first best game was when I decided not to rush and just camp out with someone else to defend the base. Though it was a long and tedious wait, my entire team got wiped out except for one Jenner. I had told them after we lost 4 guys to "bring them back to our base, let's fight them on our turf." Instead they kept fighting over there, where the plethora of uphill and downhill combat was screwing our lights over and they were picked off one by one. Our Jenner made it back.

I started my mech up prematurely, taking several LRM volleys in the back as a result. Still, almost solo I nearly took out an Awesome (a single shot from our Jenner finished him) and proceeded to wipe out another mech, before our D-DC could intervene and take out the last guy. I lost an arm, a shoulder, and nearly lost my leg to a spider.

So far, so good. We took out three mechs. The enemy was complaining, "Why haven't our guys taken the base yet?" I replied, "They tried. They failed." We looped back to our base to set up a new ambush. I went wandering off, though, and looped around one of the volcanoes. It paid off. I was behind the next volley of three enemies. I began doing massive damage to one of their Cataphracts when from behind, a fourth enemy with twin Gauss rifles took out my leg. I died seconds later. Did 315. Our D-DC did 412. The next highest on the team was barely in the 200s. Time ran out. Our Jenner and D-DC were still alive.

-----

The second match involved me in the Golden Boy when I finally stopped running stock. I traded out all the SRMs for LRM-5s, churning out 25 missiles every few seconds. On the side I had an ER PPC. I had an okay 400 damage, but lost my PPC arm early and began playing Centurion 9-D stock and/or classic Dragon which is running around as fast as I can spamming small sums of missiles (3 LRM-5s, I put the PPC on the left arm with the 2 LRM-5s) wherever I could. Managed a kill but was chased by a Jagermech that still had superior speed. Despite his shotguns I died center torso with barely any damage to sides. In fact every match with the Golden Boy I have died front CT. Even the one time I was running from a Jager in another match at point blank, back pointed at him. Died front CT.

Both of my good matches were pugged.

[Koniving]

Padic, on 07 August 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

I am pretty sure that this is not how Elo works. It is trying to match players of a similar Elo together, not match good players with bad players to meet an "average Elo" target.

Why would they ever code it to act that way? Just to troll you, specifically?

Actually, that's exactly how it happens in group matches, it snags teams and bugs pugs of lower and higher skill to match an average. (That's actually how the system's described, too).

This also happens when the player count dropping at that moment is low. I sometimes find myself balancing a team of players that barely seem to know what they are doing, against a team that has okay to poor skill with one enemy that has superior skill to my own. Other times I'll find myself as the weak link on a team of cheese builds who each manage to get more than 500 damage.

Edit: Don't know why I had "pugs" typed as "bugs."

Edited by Koniving, 07 August 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Sug]

travelbug, on 07 August 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

that system however does not favor the single player and winning has become more of a cr#pshoot

Nah the crapshoot was the 50/50 win ratio I had pugging last week. So far I've won 2 of the 36 games I've played since the patch.

[travelbug]

a little op but ill just put it out there:

mechs are supposed to be the ultimate war machines, the pinnacle of human weapons technology.
was your vision of mechwarrior consistent with the present defensive meta where mechs hide behind hills and buildings afraid to stride out in the open, fearing a death in mere seconds?

i do agree that ramboing and running out in open terrain is foolish, but our present meta just pushes the defensive side too much that we have mechs cowering under cover. i dont know but this doesnt seem like mechwarrior to me.

[Eisenhorne]

travelbug, on 07 August 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

a little op but ill just put it out there:

mechs are supposed to be the ultimate war machines, the pinnacle of human weapons technology.
was your vision of mechwarrior consistent with the present defensive meta where mechs hide behind hills and buildings afraid to stride out in the open, fearing a death in mere seconds?

i do agree that ramboing and running out in open terrain is foolish, but our present meta just pushes the defensive side too much that we have mechs cowering under cover. i dont know but this doesnt seem like mechwarrior to me.

Striding out in the open has never been a good idea. Neither is cowering behind buildings. Your SUPPOSED to be either sniping the enemy a few times, then relocating to another spot and repeating, or if your a brawler, using cover to flank the enemy.

[Padic]

Koniving, on 07 August 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Actually, that's exactly how it happens in group matches, it snags teams and bugs of lower and higher skill to match an average. (That's actually how the system's described, too).

This also happens when the player count dropping at that moment is low. I sometimes find myself balancing a team of players that barely seem to know what they are doing, against a team that has okay to poor skill with one enemy that has superior skill to my own. Other times I'll find myself as the weak link on a team of cheese builds who each manage to get more than 500 damage.

That might be what you're observing, but that's not the take away message I got from the command chair posts. My understanding is that when players drop in a premade group, it treats them all as having their average Elo, and then it places them normally (by trying to put like Elo's together).

Anomalies like what you are describing are a lot more likely to be the result of people having an unrepresentative Elo score (low number of matches played, a lot of time off, trying something new, whatever, etc), or by misjudging the overall skill of a player (high damage doesn't mean you played well, dying early doesn't mean you suck, getting rolled doesn't mean your team was mismatched)