129 replies to this topic

[travelbug]

Goldhawk, on 09 August 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

Single Player Pugging is not dead. Careful team play is now a mandatory thing. There is no more, OH NO, some Boom Jager or other mech has flanked us and it tearing us to pieces! People are starting to think tactically and communicate more, (At least in the games I have been in), and not Rambo over the ridge. Best tips for Pugging

1) When you see the enemy, estimate double their number is in that location. Many people do not wander off solo anymore, but if you see a solo mech, obliterate it WITH YOUR TEAM. Not alone, not, "I got this", hang with a buddy.

2) On Arctic Valley it is a beautiful and awesome view to run to the top of the ridge and exclaim, "I'm king of the world!". (Quote from Titanic). Nowadays, you will be dead by the preposition in that sentence.

3) Communicate. Since we are playing a game on a computer, those little letters on the keyboard are not just for moving your mech, they can also write words... (Whooooooaaaaa) Words that tell your teammates a probable location of the enemy so they don't get slammed from the side from an enemy lance. The team should never find out the location of the enemy mechs by your mech going silent or exploding violently.
Lastly, when people discover their keyboard AFTER death to indicate location of the enemy, it's annoying. It takes 1 second to write a grid number.

4) finally my acronym for making this easy.

A) Assess the battle where you will be the most useful.
T) Tactically engage and disengage from enemies.
L) Lose your ideas of being a hero that wipes out the entire enemy team.
A) Always communicate with your teammates.
S) Study and learn from your mistakes, they will help your survive in the future.

I like this post which gives guidelines rather than the common get ts/join a clan 'advice'.

[Enigmos]

Padic, on 08 August 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Wait. Why is that odd? Seems to me that in each match, there's 12 (8 previously) chances to get a kill, but only 1 chance to get a win, and every match needs to end with either a win or a loss, but not every match needs to end in your death... Shouldn't that imply that you K/D be higher than your W/L for almost everyone?

If you seldom die, yet your team often (40% win rate) loses what did you do, disconnect as soon as the odds turned against you? That doesn't seem like the behavior of a good teammate.

Eisenhorne would have to average 4.6 kills per match, even if he never lost a mech, though he says his team won only 40% of his matches. He is getting kills, but his teams lose.

Whether I die is less important than whether my team got the victory. His K/D is apparently what he values. If I draw off half their firepower but die doing it but my team picked the opposition apart piecemeal because the cohesion of their formation was disrupted, then my contribution made a difference. Those he called 'Rambo' were just those who didn't turtle up with him, those who attempted to use maneuver while he sat on cap picking off the survivors whose armor was depleted by the so-called 'Rambos' he didn't support. Great strategy for his K/D I suppose, but lousy for his teams and naturally therefore his K/D ratio is not making much of a difference for his teams. My Team wins are better than my K/D.

Thus I do make a difference, but my K/D is worse. The guy on point is hit more often. Pilots who use their head target the most dangerous opponent first if they can.

I'm with Rommel and Guderian rather than the Maginot Line because maneuver and flanking leads to victory. Do I get caught? Sure I do. I've suffered 3,842 deaths. Do I have many kills? 3,809. But my teams have won 3,119 while losing 2,759.

Saying anyone who uses maneuver is a Rambo is statement of siege mentality. Yes you need to be canny and you are facing skilled pilots and marksmen as well as new pilots who haven't learned to aim while moving. Playing a defensive game, turtling up and waiting for the opposing force to come to you is good for your K/D but bad for your win prospects since they can pick where and when to strike. Your team will often lose if the OpFor plans ahead and doesn't simply charge in one at a time as they arrive.

So you have a high-risk, high reward path or you have a safer trench warfare approach. You choose.

[travelbug]

OriginalTibs, on 09 August 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

If you seldom die, yet your team often (40% win rate) loses what did you do, disconnect as soon as the odds turned against you? That doesn't seem like the behavior of a good teammate.

Eisenhorne would have to average 4.6 kills per match, even if he never lost a mech, though he says his team won only 40% of his matches. He is getting kills, but his teams lose.

Whether I die is less important than whether my team got the victory. His K/D is apparently what he values. If I draw off half their firepower but die doing it but my team picked the opposition apart piecemeal because the cohesion of their formation was disrupted, then my contribution made a difference. Those he called 'Rambo' were just those who didn't turtle up with him, those who attempted to use maneuver while he sat on cap picking off the survivors whose armor was depleted by the so-called 'Rambos' he didn't support. Great strategy for his K/D I suppose, but lousy for his teams and naturally therefore his K/D ratio is not making much of a difference for his teams. My Team wins are better than my K/D.

Thus I do make a difference, but my K/D is worse. The guy on point is hit more often. Pilots who use their head target the most dangerous opponent first if they can.

but this was not the case in 8v8 where flanking did not necessarily lead to certain death.

I'm with Rommel and Guderian rather than the Maginot Line because maneuver and flanking leads to victory. Do I get caught? Sure I do. I've suffered 3,842 deaths. Do I have many kills? 3,809. But my teams have won 3,119 while losing 2,759.

Saying anyone who uses maneuver is a Rambo is statement of siege mentality. Yes you need to be canny and you are facing skilled pilots and marksmen as well as new pilots who haven't learned to aim while moving. Playing a defensive game, turtling up and waiting for the opposing force to come to you is good for your K/D but bad for your win prospects since they can pick where and when to strike. Your team will often lose if the OpFor plans ahead and doesn't simply charge in one at a time as they arrive.

So you have a high-risk, high reward path or you have a safer trench warfare approach. You choose.

i agree with you that in general flanking should be the tactic of choice but in this meta of high alpha, overpopulated maps the risks are great indeed. if you lead a lance of flankers in medium range of closer, and the blob focuses fire and closes on you, and your own blob fails to push at this right moment you are all dead unless you are lights that have the agility to disengage. if you fail you put your team one lance down. if you succeed, your lance would most probably still be dead but you may have caused enough disruption to lead to a win. either way the flanking force (not composed of lights) will be dead.

aside from the fact that such maneuvers are difficult to do unless practiced by a 12 man, most people will be aversed to a maneuver that will lead to almost certain death. it is thus quite complicated to pull off as a pugger.

Edited by travelbug, 09 August 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[Ronan]

I PUG about 99% of the time. Maybe more. Still do. Its not dead, but very different.

When 12v12 first hit the production servers was also when the KTO-GB went on sale. I bought, then ran that almost exclusively to collect xp. I - got - smashed.

This Kintaro is a different loadout than pretty much all my other mechs, and took time to make my brain work with it.

12 v 12 is a different animal than 8 v 8, and THAT took time to grok.

So yeah, it started out rough, but I'm adapting and its getting back to my normal. Which isn't great, but I have fun!!

[Enigmos]

travelbug, on 09 August 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

i agree with you that in general flanking should be the tactic of choice but in this meta of high alpha, overpopulated maps the risks are great indeed. if you lead a lance of flankers in medium range of closer, and the blob focuses fire and closes on you, and your own blob fails to push at this right moment you are all dead unless you are lights that have the agility to disengage. if you fail you put your team one lance down. if you succeed, your lance would most probably still be dead but you may have caused enough disruption to lead to a win. either way the flanking force (not composed of lights) will be dead.

aside from the fact that such maneuvers are difficult to do unless practiced by a 12 man, most people will be aversed to a maneuver that will lead to almost certain death. it is thus quite complicated to pull off as a pugger.

All sound points. It is risky, but if you can coordinate your flanking attack with the other two lances they can hold them by the nose while you kick them in the pants.

I don't really think it is really a 'meta' to build for the highest strike capability, it is instead something we should expect many to do. Fewer will build and keep the higher damage output of small-bore sustained fire builds because the requirement of sustaining that fire is also high risk.

Another meme often abused is the 'stick together' command that so many Napoleon wannabe's issue. For assaults and heavies that is certainly good advice, but your scouts build for speed for a good reason. It makes very little sense to ask your scouts to plod along next to a 48.6kph Atlas sacrificing their most significant strength.

Mediums are underutilized for their skirmishing/rapid response roles.

[Orion ji]

Wow! Fewer tears and more sound advice! WTF is going on around here?

My 2cents...

I've pugged 100% of the time since closed beta and it has been great ~50% of the time. Ya win some ,ya lose some. No biggie.

Imo you don't need TS/Raidcall/Mumble/Vent etc to play well and win consistently. Those things are just a crutch for people who can't or don't stay attuned to their radar or in-game chat, and prefer to be told what to do.

[MonkeyCheese]

At first when 12v12 came I was like my god puging is pointless now, and it still will be for most newer people, luckily I have my many mastered mechs decked out with gear and modules to rely on, but I play fast mechs and everything I can be bothered to drive outside of a lrm highlander is 80kph -150kph so I guess that helps.

I will say this, I am having one hell of a hard time getting the basics on my 2 newer dragons that I just purchased, but keeping them at fast speeds helps, I dont know how the slower mechs without communication expect to survive long.

Ingame voice or at least some kind of automated voice/text system is needed, for example press v for a list of yells, press 1 to post in chat/audio "I need help in my current grid" press 2 for "focus target X that I am locked on to" press 3 for "hold position" press 4 for "fall back"
These kind of automated text/audio clips are in many modern games and can be used very quickly once a player memorizes the numbers, If 3 very different games that I play (chivalry, planetside2, warthunder) can all use this system why cant a "tactical" game like MWO? Typing out orders or info can be very dangerous in mwo, especially in 12v12.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 09 August 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[travelbug]

OriginalTibs, on 09 August 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

Mediums are underutilized for their skirmishing/rapid response roles.

i like this last statement. however...

in 8v8, i believed that fast mediums and heavies were the best flanking force. a group of three competent pilots could cause enough disruption or attack the enemy from behind with force - and this could all be discerned by looking at the mini map. in fact, you did not even have to communicate your intention, as following movements on the mini map more or less spoke for themselves.

now with 12v12, heavies and especially mediums do not have the armor nor the agility to sustain a counterattack by the opfor blob. and maybe more importantly, maneuvers are harder to read in the minimap because there are just too many triangles.

Edited by travelbug, 09 August 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[SJ Osiris]

Wasn't pugging dead with elo? I saw someone express this earlier and it is a sentiment that I hold as well. I want to play people my skill level and be able to win if I can. What happens now is that if I win too much I'll get into a game with new people (well I don't what they are) that can do anywhere from 0-0 damage while the opposing team who do not possess that ability rolls over us. Conversely, after getting battered a few times, I'll be put on a team with the best people and we will destroy the enemy uncontested. It feels so artificial and dumb that I am being kept at 50% win/lose in this manner.

[Tesunie]

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 August 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

I want a dang zeus. But thats not in game. And cant we mc mechs? I thought i saw mc prices beside all mech prices. As for me and a medium...i dont fit med playstyle.

A Zeus wouldn't be bad, and I'm sure it will get into the game eventually. However, we have a lot of mechs to still go. A lot of mechs.

Yes, any mech in the game can be bought with MC. They have C-bill and MC prices, and can be bought with the proper amount of one or the other. Personally, I am broke so I just save and stick to C-bill mechs. If you have the money to buy a mech with MC, all the power to you.

Just a suggestion, as it worked for me. This game is awesome enough to fulfill many different playing styles. I have found that the Quickdraw is a good mech for me personally. Jenners, as much as I love them, not so much... To each their own.

Goldhawk, on 09 August 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

Lastly, when people discover their keyboard AFTER death to indicate location of the enemy, it's annoying. It takes 1 second to write a grid number.

Sometimes, I don't have even a second to standstill/move in a straight line long enough to type a response. Sometimes, I don't get a chance to give any typed Intel until my death. Then, I have all the time in the match to give a response. However, on the flip side, in a heavy/assault mech, I normally can survive a few hits as I "beg for help" with location. This is, of course, completely situational.

Otherwise, I agree with everything else you said.

[Goldhawk]

travelbug, on 09 August 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

I like this post which gives guidelines rather than the common get ts/join a clan 'advice'.

It's because I have Pugged for a long time and finally joined a merc corp. Even after there are 20+ people willing to jump into a game with me, I still PUG. Why? It enhances your skills and forces you to consider different tactics and strategies. When you run with your same 3 buddies, you have patterns that develop, and those patterns can be copied, assessed, duplicated, and improved. Also, I'm not exclusively tied to a certain "Time" that I can play cause my buddies are online. Yes, my win percentage is higher with my team, but I won't run into that many full teams and can enjoy myself with stupid builds.

Edited by Goldhawk, 10 August 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[travelbug]

Goldhawk, on 10 August 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

It's because I have Pugged for a long time and finally joined a merc corp. Even after there are 20+ people willing to jump into a game with me, I still PUG. Why? It enhances your skills and forces you to consider different tactics and strategies. When you run with your same 3 buddies, you have patterns that develop, and those patterns can be copied, assessed, duplicated, and improved. Also, I'm not exclusively tied to a certain "Time" that I can play cause my buddies are online. Yes, my win percentage is higher with my team, but I won't run into that many full teams and can enjoy myself with stupid builds.

i also a guild and enjoy playing with them immensely (although i have yet to join their 12man). but just like you i enjoy the solo pugging experience a lot. as my mech and playing style is more of a quick response unit, my actions are more fluid and not tied to a single lance when i solo. thus i am able to force multiply a pushing frontline or switch to a crumbling flank or hunt down that annoying lrm boat or cap in force to salvage a losing game,as i see fit. with my guild i will not exhibit this behavior and my fate is tied to the decisions of the group. as such i have more wins with my clan but better stats when i sp pug.

[WVAnonymous]

Padic, on 08 August 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

Wait. Why is that odd? Seems to me that in each match, there's 12 (8 previously) chances to get a kill, but only 1 chance to get a win, and every match needs to end with either a win or a loss, but not every match needs to end in your death... Shouldn't that imply that you K/D be higher than your W/L for almost everyone?

My K/D rate is roughly half of my W/L. Go figure.

[Aceramic]

Single-player PuG'ing is not dead. In fact, it's all I do. Roughly 1,100 total matches, and I'd say... Maybe 100 of them were with 1-3 friends. Probably less.

I'm always in TS, but I'm always alone... Maybe I should find a public TS that actually has people in it. >.>

[Stunner]

Single Player Pugging is not dead. I do this alot and for some reason my new recent playstyle has pugging working better than when I do group play.

In Single Player pugging you don't run off by yourself you will die. I generally stick with my group unless I'm flanking to get behind the enemy. If I do that I need to find only 1 or two enemy as 3 will get me. It works best when I'm with allies and they are taking the damage and I am dishing it back to the enemy.

When I'm doing team play I'm only working with my 4 teamates and sometimes they will choose to do their own thing. That means we could run into a group of 8 or more and get smashed.

Remember the only true full premade is 12 v 12 and a Pug won't be dropping into one of those so if anything I think pugging has gotten better with 12 v 12 since the 1 4 man premade can't turn the whole game around anymore although there are times that multiple premades make it into the same drop.

[travelbug]

after solo pugging some more, i have to say that yup, it is not dead. however some of the issues mentioned in this thread still hold and i think having the option for either 12v12 or 8v8 would be good for the community as a whole.

[Aastarius]

travelbug, on 12 August 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

after solo pugging some more, i have to say that yup, it is not dead. however some of the issues mentioned in this thread still hold and i think having the option for either 12v12 or 8v8 would be good for the community as a whole.

Think I have to disagree with this, as splitting the games further will likely to lead to ever increasing wait queues.

In theory, we are already going to be splitting into regions (actually hoping this is sooner rather than later), and that's in addition to 1PV vs 3PV queues.

Edited by Aastarius, 12 August 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[StandingCow]

Nah, it will never be dead. Even though I am in a unit I play solo quite a bit.

[Hexenhammer]

If it is no one told me because I run pug most of the time and nothing has changed really.

[Goldhawk]

Though I have no idea about the production of the game, hopefully in the future, there will be an 8 man mode where teams can fight one another. Also, there are no problems with single players joining the game, late at night yes, it gets tough to pug and have a good win ratio, but it's not impossible. I do work with a team just so you know.