27 replies to this topic

[AZA311]

in the latest patch?

- 15% of critical damage dealt to an exposed 'Mech component will now be directly applied to the internal structure of that component.
- This is only applied to the critical damage done. Base weapon damage is not taken into account.
- Critical damage is not applied through armor.

Because it sounds like this means you can die faster

[Syllogy]

Yeah... it means you can die faster.

[Lefteye Falconeer]

It means you can die faster although in another post someone went through the mathematical meaning of it and found out the difference is tiny.

But yes, it means you can die faster. There's no other way around it.

Another rumor (so totally unconfirmed by now, don't go around saying it's coming because we don't know) is that PGI might increase Internal Structure HP for all 'mechs across the board, so this would in fact be the first step in that direction. More HP, but a few more chances to deal damage to those HP, especially for some underused weapons like MGs and LBXs.

Edited by Lefteye, 07 August 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

It works like this: You blow off the external armor on a location. You start firing at the internal bits of the mech. If you hit a heat sink, for instance, in the torso that you just stripped and you cause a critical hit, 15% of the added critical damage ONLY will go to the structure. So, if you shot that heat sink with a PPC and crit with the shot for only 1x damage, you'd do 10+10 to the heat sink and 1.5 damage (15% of 10) would be directed to the structure.

[stjobe]

Lefteye, on 07 August 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

It means you can die faster although in another post someone went through the mathematical meaning of it and found out the difference is tiny.

It is tiny - just 15%, or 1.5 - 4.5 for an AC/10 or PPC - for regular weapons. For the crit weapons like the MG, it's huge.

The MG has overnight become a real weapon, fully capable of killing 'mechs with breached armour.

Why? Because the additional damage to internal structure is based on the crit damage, not the weapon's regular damage - and the MG has a huge crit damage multiplier (12.5).

It works like this: The MG does 0.1 damage per bullet to armour or internal structure on a regular hit. On a crit though, it does way more than 0.1 damage, both to internal structure and internal components:

No crit (39%): 0.1 damage to IS
Single crit (25% + 11%): 0.1 + 0.1875 damage to IS (and 1.25 to component)
Double crit(14% + 6%): 0.2 + 0.375 damage to IS (and 2.5 to component)
Triple crit (3% + 2%): 0.3 + 0.525 damage to IS (and 3.75 to component)

If you do the math, this means that a single 1.0 DPS MG does roughly 3 DPS (2.9875) against a breached target's internal structure, and over 11 DPS (11.36) to its internal components! (Although spread and general loss of accuracy will do its part to lower those numbers by approximately 25% to 50%, that's still a LOT of DPS).

Let me repeat those numbers: The current MG does 1 DPS to armour, 3 DPS to internal structure, and 11 DPS to internal components. That's not bad. At all.

And that's a single MG. Now put four of them on a nimble 'mech like the SDR-5K, and you'll be doing 12 DPS to that internal structure.

As I said, overnight MG's became useful. It's not just the spreadsheet warrior in me talking either; I concocted a little experiment yesterday: I drop in my SDR-5K (LL+4MG) as I usually do after a patch to see if the MGs have become useful, and in that drop I used the LL only to strip armour and then I only fired the MGs (alternatively I just didn't fire the LL if the target already had exposed internal sections). I made very sure not to fire the LL on any target with exposed internals.

I got three kills. In a SDR-5K. With MGs.

[AZA311]

Lefteye, on 07 August 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

It means you can die faster although in another post someone went through the mathematical meaning of it and found out the difference is tiny.

But yes, it means you can die faster. There's no other way around it.

Another rumor (so totally unconfirmed by now, don't go around saying it's coming because we don't know) is that PGI might increase Internal Structure HP for all 'mechs across the board, so this would in fact be the first step in that direction. More HP, but a few more chances to deal damage to those HP, especially for some underused weapons like MGs and LBXs.

This is sad, even if it's only tiny. Dying too fast has always been one of my biggest complaints in this game. I'm a proponent of increasing armor someway somehow to extend life and battle tactics.

But if this is a slow step towards increasing Internal Structure HP somewhere down the line - which is indirectly increasing armor - then this is something positive and in the right direction IMO from this ill advised new crit system development IMO

[Sprouticus]

{removed, better numbers below}

Edited by Sprouticus, 08 August 2013 - 04:07 AM.

[Ph30nix]

AZA311, on 07 August 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

in the latest patch?

- 15% of critical damage dealt to an exposed 'Mech component will now be directly applied to the internal structure of that component.
- This is only applied to the critical damage done. Base weapon damage is not taken into account.
- Critical damage is not applied through armor.

Because it sounds like this means you can die faster

it means machine guns got another buff

[stjobe]

Sprouticus, on 07 August 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

I also did some math looking at the single shot weapons (not MG's).

The number for those weapons are far less exciting.
Here

The AC20 does an average of 1.2 extra dmg , but only when hitting an open panel.
The lbx10 does better (as it should).

I think your calculations are missing two things:
1. Crit damage is in addition to regular damage
2. Crit damage is 1, 2, or 3x regular damage.

Since the new additional IS damage is based on crit damage, not regular damage, the AC/20 has four cases:
1. No crit (58% chance): 20 damage to IS
2. Single crit (25% chance): 20 + 3 damage to IS, 20 damage to a component.
3. Double crit (14% chance): 20 + 6 damage to IS, 40 damage to a component.
4. Triple crit (3% chance): 20 + 9 damage to IS, 60 damage to a component.

Any crit will blow out a component, but the IS damage is a bit better than 1.2 extra points; it's 1.86 extra points. Still not much, but then again the AC/20 didn't need a buff to destroy 'mechs, did it?

Compare that to the MG which does a full 300% more the damage to IS since yesterday and you'll understand why this proponent for a useful MG is a very happy MechWarrior today

Edited by stjobe, 07 August 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Braggart]

Mgs are a great weapon for light mechs now.

in a light vs light fight, med las will still be king, but a light with Mgs getting behing a heavy or assault can quite quickly lay a world of hurt down.

Should a jager take MGs. Oh god no, but man i saw a ton of them rocking Mgs last night, laughing as they couldnt hurt my bucket.

[The Duke of Dirty]

Trauglodyte, on 07 August 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

It works like this: You blow off the external armor on a location. You start firing at the internal bits of the mech. If you hit a heat sink, for instance, in the torso that you just stripped and you cause a critical hit, 15% of the added critical damage ONLY will go to the structure. So, if you shot that heat sink with a PPC and crit with the shot for only 1x damage, you'd do 10+10 to the heat sink and 1.5 damage (15% of 10) would be directed to the structure.

This is almost right, except that crits do 5x damage to components.

[stjobe]

Pwnius, on 07 August 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

This is almost right, except that crits do 5x damage to components.

No they don't.

For regular weapons they do 1, 2, or 3 times the weapon damage. For crit weapons like the MG, they multiply that by a crit multiplier (in the case of the MG it's 12.5: 0.1 * 12.5 = 1.25 for a single crit, 2.5 for a double crit, and 3.75 for a triple crit).

[Sprouticus]

stjobe, on 07 August 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

I think your calculations are missing two things:
1. Crit damage is in addition to regular damage
2. Crit damage is 1, 2, or 3x regular damage.

Since the new additional IS damage is based on crit damage, not regular damage, the AC/20 has four cases:
1. No crit (58% chance): 20 damage to IS
2. Single crit (25% chance): 20 + 3 damage to IS, 20 damage to a component.
3. Double crit (14% chance): 20 + 6 damage to IS, 40 damage to a component.
4. Triple crit (3% chance): 20 + 9 damage to IS, 60 damage to a component.

Any crit will blow out a component, but the IS damage is a bit better than 1.2 extra points; it's 1.86 extra points. Still not much, but then again the AC/20 didn't need a buff to destroy 'mechs, did it?

Compare that to the MG which does a full 300% more the damage to IS since yesterday and you'll understand why this proponent for a useful MG is a very happy MechWarrior today

You are correct, I made a mistake, but not the one you pointed out (sort of)


The 25/14/3 is NOT for single/double/triple damage, it is for number of crits. This means that the 2nd or 3rd crit hits a different component. Which means that the damage to internals IS higher, as you pointed out. It is a minor difference, but a difference none the less.

In addition the crit seeking weapons have multipliers (which I finally took the time to find out.



So, it actually looks like this:


AC20 =((0.58*0)+(0.25*20)+(0.14*40)+(0.02*60) *0.15) = average of 1.77 extra dmg or 8% more damage
You can extrapolate for all AC's, PPC, and gauss, and even missiles.


For lasers
Assuming this graph is correct (here) you have 10 ticks per shot. That makes the numbers fairly easy

Large Laser does 9 dmg, and 10 ticks for 0.9 dmg/tick
Large laser =(((0.58*0)+(0.25*0.9)+(0.14*1.8)+(0.02*2.7)) *0.15) = 0.07965 per hit
If you hit with all 10 ticks on an open panel, you could expect to do 0.7965 extra dmg or 8% more dmg.


For mg's, lbx and flamers the iHP has a multiplier (different for each weapon)

Per this site (here)

flamers do 0.44 per crit
lbx does 2 per crit
machine guns do 1.25 per crit


mg = (((0.58*0)+(0.39*1.25)+(0.22*2.5)+(0.05*3.75)) *0.15)= 0..18375 extra damage per shot into an open panel. You gain roughly 283% more dmg to internals
lbx = (((0.58*0)+(0.39*2)+(0.22*4)+(0.05*6)) *0.15)= 0.294 extra damage per pellet that hits an open panel. you gain 29% more in damage to internals. .
flamer = =(((0.58*0)+(0.39*0.44)+(0.22*0.88)+(0.05*1.32)) *0.15) = 0.06468 extra damage per shot to open panels. You gain 9.2% more dmg to internals



As you can see, the mg and lbx both gain significant damage from the change. The flamer and most non crit seeking weapons are in the 8-9% range.


EDIT: Thansk to St Jobe for the update

Edited by Sprouticus, 08 August 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Sprouticus, on 07 August 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

The 25/14/3 is NOT for single/double/triple damage, it is for number of crits. This means that the 2nd or 3rd crit hits a different component.

Not quite correct. Each of the 1-3 crits is individually assigned, but they can randomly hit the same component more than once, if there's more than one being assigned. They aren't automatically separated onto different components.

[General Taskeen]

Sigh, I don't think we're ever getting an MG that damages armor and internals equally now...

[FupDup]

General Taskeen, on 07 August 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Sigh, I don't think we're ever getting an MG that damages armor and internals equally now...

Personally I'd like for this to be solved with different weapon manufacturers. One model would be the low-damage crit-seeker that we've all come to know and hate (pretty much for the sole purpose of appeasing a certain House Liao player who insists that MGs were overpowered back at 0.08 damage per bullet), and the other would deal respectable damage against armor but with a very tiny or nonexistent critical hit chance.

Edited by FupDup, 07 August 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[Ph30nix]

Braggart, on 07 August 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Mgs are a great weapon for light mechs now.

in a light vs light fight, med las will still be king, but a light with Mgs getting behing a heavy or assault can quite quickly lay a world of hurt down.

Should a jager take MGs. Oh god no, but man i saw a ton of them rocking Mgs last night, laughing as they couldnt hurt my bucket.

6 mg and 2 erppc can actually deliver a bit of pain

[JokerVictor]

I gave this build a go for sh*ts and giggles and was absolutely stunned at how effective it is.

Stock K2 weapons config, no less. Eery...

[Royalewithcheese]

How does the engine work in this - can you just crit it until you kill CT?

[Sephlock]

So what about engines? Do they count as crittable, but indestructible? For example, can I shoot out an enemy mech's back armor and then go to town on his rear CT or side torso (if he is using an XL engine) and get an unlimited number of crits until he dies? I mean, if the area that I am shooting at has nothing in it, I can't get a critical hit, right?