42 replies to this topic

[Roadbuster]

Zylo, on 07 August 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

This isn't true in the case of mechs that have not yet engaged. A player sitting back a bit won't have any reason to move in and engage the mech at 49% when another undamaged mech is available as another target.

The player in this example is going to get the most credit by engaging the undamaged enemy (likely taking shots from a distance) and could easily do 51% damage.

I have no problems increasing the assist rewards based on damage done but kill credit based on damage done is the wrong way to do it. Headshots are a great example of why the most damage done doesn't deserve kill credit.

No one is going to want to pilot anything less than assaults under this proposed system. That is worse for game balance than players "killstealing".

Well, your first point depends on the player.
If I had the choice between a damaged Catapult with red CT armor and a undamaged Catapult I won't think twice and engage the damaged Catapult.
If other players NEED the kill, for whatever reason besides e-peen stroking or the insane ammounts of CB you get for a kill, they should go for it. I rather try to win a match and get more CB/XP, than get 6 kills and lose the match.
But that's personal preference.

The second point you bring up, about kill credit for headshotting, is totally legit and I agree with you.

Your third point about assaults got more to do with missing rewards for other actions besides damage dealt, than with rewarding for kills.

Zylo, on 07 August 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

Yes, let's encourage players to do as much damage over as many components as possible, as long as it's more than any other player they get the kill. This would actually discourage teamwork because if your teammates are shooting at 1 location you might have a chance to do more damage by shooting other locations, it does the opposite of encouraging focus fire.

In the case of a mech with only the CT almost cored (no damage to any other components) if I know a teammate did all that damage I could easily decide to "killsteal" by taking off both arms, 1 leg, getting both side torso sections down to red internals and then killing by headshot.

Why would I give the kill to someone else by shooting that CT?

Are you really serious about this or are you being sarcastic?
Because, who in the world (ok I'm sure there are more than enough who would do this) would look at a red CT, let's say, Cataphract which is shooting back with ACs and lasers, and decide to first shoot off an arm, then the other arm and then a leg (if the attacker is still alive at that point) instead of just coring it?
Why? Because you get some small CB/XP bonus? Or is it just to increase K/D ratio?

And the current reward system already encourages players to deal as much damage as possible, because damage dealt is a part of the reward system.


How about this? We take kills out of the game.
Everyone just gets a destruction bonus based on the total number of mechs destroyed and there will be no K/D ratio anymore. Only Win/Loss.

*leans back and waits for the flame*

Edited by Roadbuster, 08 August 2013 - 12:52 AM.

[Zylo]

Roadbuster, on 08 August 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

Well, your first point depends on the player.
If I had the choice between a damaged Catapult with red CT armor and a undamaged Catapult I won't think twice and engage the damaged Catapult.
If other players NEED the kill, for whatever reason besides e-peen stroking or the insane ammounts of CB you get for a kill, they should go for it. I rather try to win a match and get more CB/XP, than get 6 kills and lose the match.
But that's personal preference.

The second point you bring up, about kill credit for headshotting, is totally legit and I agree with you.

Your third point about assaults got more to do with missing rewards for other actions besides damage dealt, than with rewarding for kills.


Are you really serious about this or are you being sarcastic?
Because, who in the world (ok I'm sure there are more than enough who would do this) would look at a red CT, let's say, Cataphract which is shooting back with ACs and lasers, and decide to first shoot off an arm, then the other arm and then a leg (if the attacker is still alive at that point) instead of just coring it?
Why? Because you get some small CB/XP bonus? Or is it just to increase K/D ratio?

And the current reward system already encourages players to deal as much damage as possible, because damage dealt is a part of the reward system.


How about this? We take kills out of the game.
Everyone just gets a destruction bonus based on the total number of mechs destroyed and there will be no K/D ratio anymore. Only Win/Loss.

*leans back and waits for the flame*

I'm not totally serious because my #1 goal is the win and if that red CT mech isn't shooting at me it could leave me free to go damage another mech for example. When it comes to rewards most players are going to want max C-bill gains and yes, some do want kill credit. Those who want kill credit aren't going to bother finishing off a mech if they don't get kill credit and will instead focus on a target where they can do enough damage to get more C-bills and the kill credit.

I wouldn't mind if tracked stats were changed as you describe or even totally removed. I would still go for the win first followed by max C-bill gain second and XP gain 3rd.

The current reward system works pretty good for damage and kill credits but needs some improvements to better reward spotting and scouting so players don't feel forced to play assaults to do max damage for C-bill grinding. A good spotter or scout should be better rewarded than they are currently.

[Roadbuster]

Zylo, on 08 August 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

The current reward system works pretty good for damage and kill credits but needs some improvements to better reward spotting and scouting so players don't feel forced to play assaults to do max damage for C-bill grinding. A good spotter or scout should be better rewarded than they are currently.

100% agree with you.

It's sad though, that there really are players out there who are only concerned about their own stuff in a teamgame.
Well, we can't blame the game for that. But maybe encourage other behaviour with a refined reward system.

[Zylo]

Roadbuster, on 08 August 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

100% agree with you.

It's sad though, that there really are players out there who are only concerned about their own stuff in a teamgame.
Well, we can't blame the game for that. But maybe encourage other behaviour with a refined reward system.

In any game where there is the need to grind XP or in game currency, teamwork can be a side effect of self interest. Players work together to win but there is often something more to it, many cases it's because each player is trying to get the most C-bills possible.

Sure there are exceptions such as a corp running a 12-man pre-made group together. Teamwork in that case can be more a result of all team members being friends.

In the case of random teams containing solo/small groups, teamwork usually is the result of self interest.

The only way to remove the self interest part of MWO is by removing all rewards, all stats and pretty much making MWO a sandbox game. When I first started playing MW2 back in 1996 there was no grinding for anything, teamwork was about getting the win against the other team and everyone played for fun rather than playing because they needed to grind XP or C-bills.

[Bhael Fire]

Bayamon, on 07 August 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

If you start looking at who did the most damage to the component that ultimately lead to the enemies death, youre also looking at the server having to run a LOT of extra calculations just to determine a kill(assist) bonus.

There's no extra calculations needed; all of the data needed are already tracked by the game and assigned at the end of the match.

For further clarification:

Kills
The kill goes to the player that inflicted the most damage on the mech. Thus, if one player does 34 points of damage, another does 72 points, and another does 73 points, it goes to the player that did 73 points of damage. Destroyed components are worth 10 points of damage. If there's a tie, the kill is shared; that is, each player gets credit for the kill and a 5,000 C-Bill bonus.

Kill Shots
If a player delivers the kill shot, they get credit for the kill (as well as the player that did the most damage to that mech), but they only get a 2,500 C-Bill bonus (the same as an assist). If they happen to be the person that delivered the most damage, they also get the 5,000 C-Bill Kill bonus too — for a total of 7,500 C-Bills for the kill and for delivering the kill shot. That's the incentive to finish the job they started.

One may ask, "why reward someone for a kill steal?"

It's not rewarding them for stealing a kill, it's rewarding them because they removed the mech from battle...permanently; that's worth the same reward as an assist. Even a critically damaged mech barely hanging on with a small laser can be a threat. The sooner the mech is removed from battle, the better the team's chances for survival are. Every second an enemy mech is on the field, is one second too many.

Assists
Just like it works now, if a player contributes to killing an enemy mech, they get credit for an assist. The only difference is assists are not worth as much because of how easy they are to get (especially in 12 v 12) — This is as it should be. It's absolutely ridiculous that assists are worth more than kills in the current system.

Roadbuster, on 07 August 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

More interesting is the question what would happen to teamkills?
If an opponent almost cores your teammate and he runs into your fire and dies, will the opponent get the kill or will you get a teamkill?

It doesn't matter how much damage a mech has sustained (from friendly fire, environmental, etc.), it only takes into account the damage output of the enemy. Thus, if a mech was reduced to near death by friendly fire and over-heating, then an enemy mech rolls up and dusts them for 2 points of damage and another takes them out with a small laser for 3 points, they get the kill AND the kill shot (for getting the most damage outputted and the kill shot).

Edited by Bhael Fire, 08 August 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Zylo, on 07 August 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Wouldn't this just encourage players to do 51%+ damage to as many enemies as possible and let other players finish them up knowing they could drop back to avoid being killed while others helped out their K/D ratio?

That presupposes the game be that controlled, which it can't.

[Bhael Fire]

Updated the OP with some clarifications and to include an additional bonus for head shots. This is so players aren't punished for having good gunnery skills. So, essentially, a really skilled pilot could score the Kill bonus, the Kill Shot bonus, AND the Head Shot bonus for a total of 10,000 C-Bills.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 08 August 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Yelland]

How is kill stealing applicable when you are grouped up (PUG included) and team mates have same objective? A Kill Steal by classical definition is someone outside of your team comes along and takes your MOB and it's spoils.

Do people actually get upset when someone rounds a corner, joins in a focus fire, and gets the killing blow by chance? Is that team work or sportsmanship? Seems a little petty in the overall intent of the game. Certainly, you could look at this way, why would you want to?

Maybe c-bill amounts per match should be spread over the total damage of team? Create a multiplier on that amount for individual component destruction and savior kills?

I recognize that people want to be rewarded for their individual contribution. But I disagree with applying "kill steals" to this game. Everyone is trying to win, winning together is the only one that counts.

[Rippthrough]

You know what's funny?

Their reasoning for changing the match rewards is the exact opposite of their reasoning for not increasing ammo/ton for 12 vs 12.

They can't even agree with themselves.

Edited by Rippthrough, 08 August 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Yelland, on 08 August 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

But I disagree with applying "kill steals" to this game. Everyone is trying to win, winning together is the only one that counts.

Agreed. That's why the suggestion in the OP is specifically designed to curb that behavior by giving larger, stacking rewards for contributing more, rather than hanging back waiting till a mech is nearly dead then brushing them with a small laser just to get the kill. That's a major problem with the current reward system.

[Scorpio Rising]

Bhael Fire, on 08 August 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

Assists
Just like it works now, if a player contributes to killing an enemy mech, they get credit for an assist. The only difference is assists are not worth as much because of how easy they are to get (especially in 12 v 12) — This is as it should be. It's absolutely ridiculous that assists are worth more than kills in the current system.

+1

They tried to deter kill steals by making assists more appealing, but thats a clunky way to do it. In the end, it caused the reward system to break when they introduced 12-12...which prompted them to implement ANOTHER wonky mechanic to fix the previous "fix" when what they need to do is go back and REALLY examine their reward system and do it right so that it scales with whatever number of players they have in a match.

[Dimento Graven]

Scorpio Rising, on 08 August 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

+1

They tried to deter kill steals by making assists more appealing, but thats a clunky way to do it. In the end, it caused the reward system to break when they introduced 12-12...which prompted them to implement ANOTHER wonky mechanic to fix the previous "fix" when what they need to do is go back and REALLY examine their reward system and do it right so that it scales with whatever number of players they have in a match.

You're battling human nature though, when it comes to kill stealing. I compare it to my home I grew up in. There were my parents and 4 kids, and the person to eat the last cookie, was always accused of eating them all, even if the only cookie they got was the last one.

So there's that, I don't want you getting all the cookies I've been working on.

Also there's the obverse of that, namely, "I got the kill shot so "I" killed him, ALL BY MYSELF, THE REST OF YOU SUCK!" Regardless of the fact that after the match there's 11 players with 300 points damage each 0 kills, 12 assists, and he's got 113 points with 12 kills. He did it all by himself.

So, y'know, until you fix people, this will ALWAYS be a problem...

[Bhael Fire]

Dimento Graven, on 08 August 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

So, y'know, until you fix people, this will ALWAYS be a problem...

That's what my Revised Match Rewards would do; it would fix people.

Or rather...make their bad behavior irrelevant.

But seriously, it allows players to "steal" kills all they want; it doesn't rob anyone because the person that did the most damage to the mech gets credit for the kill too. That's the beauty of it... Everyone gets a cookie.

The more work you do to help the team win, the more you get rewarded. As it should be.

[Unbound Inferno]

It has some merit, but I have to say no.

The balance (hopefully, with alot of faith I can't pretend to have) is that CW will end up with bonus rewards to balance it out.

Maybe...

[Dimento Graven]

Bhael Fire, on 08 August 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

That's what my Revised Match Rewards would do; it would fix people.

Or rather...make their bad behavior irrelevant.

But seriously, it allows players to "steal" kills all they want; it doesn't rob anyone because the person that did the most damage to the mech gets credit for the kill too. That's the beauty of it... Everyone gets a cookie.

The more work you do to help the team win, the more you get rewarded. As it should be.

Ok you convinced me, I like it because I get a cookie too!

[Bhael Fire]

Unbound Inferno, on 08 August 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

It has some merit, but I have to say no.

The balance (hopefully, with alot of faith I can't pretend to have) is that CW will end up with bonus rewards to balance it out.

Maybe...

Oh, I'm sure they'll get around to adding extra bonuses and such eventually (especially with hardcore mode and CW coming, possibly even with "upgraded" Premium Time, etc.).

While the nerfed match earnings is what prompted me to make this thread at first, it's not really the heart of the issue. Sure, it's a major pain in the asss during the interim, but the real problem is with how the rewards are earned.

As long as assists earn you more money than kills and the amount you actually contribute to the battle, then the system will be flawed right out of the gate conceptually. They need to revise it so that it makes sense logically and in balanced way that compensates players equitably for the amount they contribute.

Right now the system doesn't do that...it never did really, but now it's even worse with the recent reward nerf. So...it's a really good time for them to fix what should have been done correctly from the start.

I know they have other pressing design issues that are more important than rewards — especially since this is technically still beta — but they should not half-*** this aspect of the game. It deserves some love...or at the very least, they should offer a little transparency on their general intentions, so that people don't freak out.

I think the vague (almost gun-shy) "adjusted" comment in the patch notes exacerbated this situation. This is one of the problems with having an open beta for this long; players get emotionally invested in the game, so these types of issues that spring up cause heated reactions.

Ok. Done talking now. Gotta go play. /rant

[IC Rafe]

I disagree with this system. As a light/medium, this playstyle has gotten a lot more deadly for me, and i get less rewards then heavy/assaults due to the fact that i can't put out that much damage nor get kills that easily. A decent reward needs to be given for capping for example. If my team kills the other team, i get less income than the heavy/assaults, and if the lights spend their time capping, those who haven't set foot near a capping point, also get the resource reward + a giant bonus for the damage for example. So as a light/medium, you only get penalised for doing the actual objectives compared to anything that puts out 800+ dmg. Doing damage gets you 150k+ income, but as a light, no matter what i do, i can harldy break 100k.

A reward system needs to either aknowledge every member on the team for the teamwork done (monetary rewards the same across the team) or needs to take into consideration that the game does not solely revolve around damage done but the objectives too.

[Bhael Fire]

IC Rafe, on 09 August 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

A reward system needs to either aknowledge every member on the team for the teamwork done (monetary rewards the same across the team) or needs to take into consideration that the game does not solely revolve around damage done but the objectives too.

The revised rewards were just for combat. Light and mediums would have their own set of bonuses, which were not disclosed in the OP. I just wanted to focus on the combat aspect of the reward system.

[MaddMaxx]

Daisu Saikoro, on 07 August 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

I don't think I'm making much less.

I am most certainly not seeing this, so called, 30% drop. I think some one has either lost their Smoke, or their Mirror cause it looks a bit Smoke and Mirrors to me.

P.S. It is all Digital Bits. Not a second household income ffs.

[Bhael Fire]

MaddMaxx, on 09 August 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

I am most certainly not seeing this, so called, 30% drop. I think some one has either lost their Smoke, or their Mirror cause it looks a bit Smoke and Mirrors to me.

Most people are making about 20-40K less per match on average...so the "percentage" fluctuates. The point is, people are making less per match on average in 12 vs 12...Whether or not you noticed it.