51 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

Kunae, on 08 August 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Yep. And this has been confirmed, yesterday, by PGI:


Even still... providing some limited direction can make those really low ELO players worth a great deal more than having them wander aimlessly, by default.

Agreed on both accounts.

One additional point the OP fails to realize is that 4 mans are FAR less valuable in 12 mans. That is a good thing IMO.

[Kunae]

Sprouticus, on 08 August 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Agreed on both accounts.

One additional point the OP fails to realize is that 4 mans are FAR less valuable in 12 mans. That is a good thing IMO.

I think they're just as valuable, but they need to change tactics to be the core of the force, rather than just using the rest of the team as meat-shield distractions. Leading by example, and providing even minimal direction, without "demanding" or being jerks, means that all of the solo puggers have a creamy center, that they all can enjoy orbiting.

[FatBabyThompkins]

In Tourmaline Desert, I've been recently running the PPC Spider (with one Small Laser that gets a surprising amount of kills...). I'll flank on the crystals and pop the pop-tarts from behind. I'll usually get 1-2 kills as they just don't think anyone could ever get behind them. Not to mention the spotting bonus to rain the LRMs from my teammates. Sometimes, I'll get a few to peel off giving my teammates a chance to advance upon less barrage. One light making one maneuver can change the battle.

Does it show in the numbers? Not really. I tend to average in the 200-300 damage range and spiking into 400 on occasion (in contrast to my 6ML Jenner which averages in the 500 range with some 800-900 games). It's not a significant amount of damage, but not so insignificant as to be dismissed, especially when that damage can be wrought from a safe distance. Once the brawl starts, weave in and out taking opportunity shots at point blank range to vital areas, usually totaling 1-3 kills a match.

If you're a typical heavy mech in a sea of other typical heavy mechs competing against an ocean of other heavy mechs, do not expect to stand out.

[Sprouticus]

FatBabyThompkins, on 08 August 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

In Tourmaline Desert, I've been recently running the PPC Spider (with one Small Laser that gets a surprising amount of kills...). I'll flank on the crystals and pop the pop-tarts from behind. I'll usually get 1-2 kills as they just don't think anyone could ever get behind them. Not to mention the spotting bonus to rain the LRMs from my teammates. Sometimes, I'll get a few to peel off giving my teammates a chance to advance upon less barrage. One light making one maneuver can change the battle.

Does it show in the numbers? Not really. I tend to average in the 200-300 damage range and spiking into 400 on occasion (in contrast to my 6ML Jenner which averages in the 500 range with some 800-900 games). It's not a significant amount of damage, but not so insignificant as to be dismissed, especially when that damage can be wrought from a safe distance. Once the brawl starts, weave in and out taking opportunity shots at point blank range to vital areas, usually totaling 1-3 kills a match.

If you're a typical heavy mech in a sea of other typical heavy mechs competing against an ocean of other heavy mechs, do not expect to stand out.

Try a TAG instead of the small laser....works wonders and lets the LRM boats know which mechs are hittable so they dont waste ammo.

[aseth]

I've found that lights are much worse off as of this patch than they were a week ago. It seems almost like you shouldn't take anything smaller than a Jagermech or you're being detrimental to your team.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Sprouticus, on 08 August 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Try a TAG instead of the small laser....works wonders and lets the LRM boats know which mechs are hittable so they dont waste ammo.

Thought about that, but I'll be damned if that SL hasn't gotten me out of tight spots. I took it for trying to help leg lights (it's easier to put damage on evading lights with a laser than the PPC). But I've killed heavies and assaults with that blessed SL. More than I ever thought I would. That may not pan out in the future, but it sure is now.

Also, with tag I need to keep it on them announcing my position more or less (not as much as a PPC trail, though). I'm a cover freak popping out every second or so to keep the lock on. I may give it a try if I actually run with a LRM boat.

[LordDante]

uhhhh somone is sad because he aint special.....
try to kill more than 4 guys if u pull off that stunt: u made a difference
or go cap e base :u made a difference
dont make stupid posts like this :u made a difference = EASY

dont come here and complain but adapt to the NEW game. now teamplay winns the match! nobody forces u to solo Pug nobody !!!

use ts do what ur comander tells u to do be a good grunt and win games for ur clan/guild/mercenary squad...etc

[DegeneratePervert]

aseth, on 08 August 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

I've found that lights are much worse off as of this patch than they were a week ago. It seems almost like you shouldn't take anything smaller than a Jagermech or you're being detrimental to your team.

My Jenner F has no issues getting many kills in 12v12, and in fact Light Mech balls of doom roaming around are the reason why I've dusted off my dual LBX-Phract. Perhaps you should re-evaluate the way you play your light mech?

[aseth]

DegeneratePervert, on 08 August 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

My Jenner F has no issues getting many kills in 12v12, and in fact Light Mech balls of doom roaming around are the reason why I've dusted off my dual LBX-Phract. Perhaps you should re-evaluate the way you play your light mech?

It's still quite POSSIBLE to do well with a light mech, but you're still being detrimental to your team. If your Light Mech Ball of Doom was an Assault Mech Ball of Doom, it would most likely be more effective overall.

There's no reason for you to not bring the heaviest guns and armor you can. It's not like you're going to be back-capped anymore.

[Sprouticus]

aseth, on 08 August 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

It's still quite POSSIBLE to do well with a light mech, but you're still being detrimental to your team. If your Light Mech Ball of Doom was an Assault Mech Ball of Doom, it would most likely be more effective overall.

There's no reason for you to not bring the heaviest guns and armor you can. It's not like you're going to be back-capped anymore.

Terma Firma disagrees.


I have always chalked this up to ELO (mine being not very good), but I am starting to wonder if most of these kinds of posts are just players with no tactical thinking except point and the bad guy and shoot.

[Yankee77]

AvatarofWhat, on 08 August 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I want to feel that my 1200 damage 4 kills did something to help my team. Thats all.

Huh, it did, invariably. If you kill 1/3 of the enemy team, of course you helped your team. Even if you lost, you sure helped.

Just because your team loses doesn't mean you didn't make a valuable contribution. Is a hockey player's hat trick less impressive because his team loses? Is his worth as a player reduced because of it?

Of course not.

[Bilbo]

aseth, on 08 August 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

It's still quite POSSIBLE to do well with a light mech, but you're still being detrimental to your team. If your Light Mech Ball of Doom was an Assault Mech Ball of Doom, it would most likely be more effective overall.

There's no reason for you to not bring the heaviest guns and armor you can. It's not like you're going to be back-capped anymore.

We got quite a few caps done last night. It takes longer and sometimes requires a fight for the base but it is still quite doable.

[Cactus In The Rear]

all of the problems with 12v12 and all of the benefits could be achieved by simply allowing players to choose 12v12 or 8v8 when launching

Edited by Xanilos, 30 September 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Roland]

Itkovian, on 08 August 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Huh, it did, invariably. If you kill 1/3 of the enemy team, of course you helped your team. Even if you lost, you sure helped.

Just because your team loses doesn't mean you didn't make a valuable contribution. Is a hockey player's hat trick less impressive because his team loses? Is his worth as a player reduced because of it?

Of course not.

The OP is simply expressing his frustration at having such a terrible pug team.

[Screech]

They are never, and I mean ever, going back to 8v8 drops. The sooner people get that through their skull the happier they will be. The player base can not support a split currently. And if it could there are about 3-4 other splits that should be taken before 8v8 matches.

So until the population increases ten fold please leave this poor horse alone and let me bury it.

[Gallowglas]

jozkhan, on 08 August 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

Come on guys dont be obtuse the fact was in 8 v 8 if you got say 4 kills you could turn the game into your favour even if your team werent playing at their best.

Now you can get 5 or 6 kills and still lose. That feeling of being able to 'make the difference' has all but gone.

It is an unfortunate side effect of 12 v 12 but it's very real (and yes I play PUG and I play with friends - different mechs, different tactics etc)

If you're getting 4-6 kills in a 12v12, there's no way you can say you didn't make a difference. Of course you did, unless you want to say that match results are completely binary (i.e. a win is a good match and a loss is a bad match). Ultimately, your team may have still fallen flat on their face, but that could happen with 4 kills in an 8v8 as well. Honestly, if anything, I think there's even more room to distinguish yourself and a heck of a lot more room for actual tactics and not just the "blob of death" we saw in 8v8. Honestly, I think the 12v12 gameplay is lightyears better than the 8v8 gameplay. For me, it's not even close. YMMV, of course.

[Nryrony]

Magicbullet141, on 08 August 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

This game cannot handle 12 players. Lots of people have low end PCs that cannot handle this game now. 12v12 is putting an emphasis on "PUGs make you lose". Either stick with the death ball or die. Sniper war standoffs, if you try to move you'll be focused down by 6-10 players with ppcs. In a 8v8 one pilot could severely damage 3 other mechs and change the tide of the game. In 12v12 one pilot could do 1100 damage and his team still get rolled (happened to me). Capping takes forever now, a single mech or two cannot cap points in a timely manner. A four man group of the best MWO players in the world could drop together and will still get rolled often. If a lance splits off, you're screwed.

If you take out the value of the individual, multiplayer games are not fun anymore.

Are you saying that you can not hold off a team alone, in a team game?

[Mechteric]

On the other hand, try playing Planetside 2 and see how far you get solo. You can still kill things here and there, but its obviously against the whole point of the game and you will be brutally defeated by organized squads as you spawn and get farmed over and over. Only difference here is that once you die, you can't come back instantly.

[GODzillaGSPB]

GODzillaGSPB, on 08 August 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

The individual is nothing worth anymore, you say?

*the president of china likes this*



You're right though. Unfortunately this argument can swing both ways. Some may argue that this is a team game and that success should come with working together. Others might argue that weight-matching is missing, matchmaking is sucking and ELO is doing whatever and that, no matter your own effort, you get handed defeat after defeat despite your best effort. Everyone should be able to see that this is frustrating.

Of course: Expecting a near 100% win chance is illogical. But how about something around 50% when you're reasonable good? "Nope", says the matchmaking.

Haha, it's funny. Two months later and the OPs post and mine are more true than ever before. "Progress".

What I've also learned since 12 vs 12 went live is that speed is not a trait, unless you're a light and are really fast. But a fast heavy mech, like the Dragon...what for? If you decide to use that speed for a cool flanking maneuver, you're put down. STAY WITH THE BLOB. And bring an assault mech to make that blob as strong as possible.

Edited by GODzillaGSPB, 01 October 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

LordDante, on 08 August 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

uhhhh somone is sad because he aint special.....
try to kill more than 4 guys if u pull off that stunt: u made a difference
or go cap e base :u made a difference
dont make stupid posts like this :u made a difference = EASY

dont come here and complain but adapt to the NEW game. now teamplay winns the match! nobody forces u to solo Pug nobody !!!

Where would he go to complian? Sorry but your not thinking through retention of new and casual players. If the goal is to create a game for many to enjoy and have large numbers doing so we need to consider a lot of us who like big stompy robots don't have the time or even inclination to join teams. I did try to get my friends into this game and gor 9 people to join and start playing. 8 have left and the last has not been on in ages. Their resoning is the same as the op. Holding fast to you ideas of one size fits all will only slow any progress PGI can make due to slower sales or bury the game completley if there is not enough retention.