88 replies to this topic

[James The Fox Dixon]

I'm a firm believer in having enforced drop limits based upon the lore. As such, I would follow what it is canon on mech formations and Merc units must adopt one of these formations in order to better simulate what mech combat should be like in the BT universe. I'll use Sarna as a reference with my comments in parenthesis and in bold.

Line Regiments

• Heavy Assault BattleMech regiments consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs and a fourth company of artillery. The main assault force of the SLDF, most corps possessed at least a single Heavy Assault regiment.
  
• Battle BattleMech regiments were the core of most BattleMech brigades, consisting of medium-to-heavy weight 'Mechs.
  
• Striker BattleMech regiments were reconnaissance and breakthrough formations. Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs, they also included a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs, and usually had pairs of ASF assigned for their use.

Independent Regiments

• Dragoon BattleMech regiments were composed of heavy-to-assault weight 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft, their primary purpose being to fight against well-equipped enemies.
  
• Hussar BattleMech regiments were the most common of the Independent regiments, composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.
  
• Light Horse BattleMech regiments were primarily reconnaissance units, often the first one dropped onto a world to discover the enemy's strengths. Emphasizing light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts.

Line Companies

• Heavy Assault Company: 1 recon lance [2 light mechs and 2 medium mechs], 1 lance of Heavy mechs [4 heavy mechs], and 1 lance of Heavy-Assault [1 heavy mech and 3 assault mechs].
  
• Recon Lance: 120-180
  
• Heavy Lance: 240-300
  
• Heavy-Assault Lance: 300-375
  
• Total Drop Weight Limit: 660-855 tons

• Battle Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [2 medium mechs and 2 heavy mechs].
  
• Recon Lance: 80-140
  
• Striker Lance: 160-220
  
• Heavy Lance: 200-260
  
• Total Drop Weight Limit: 440-620 tons

• Striker Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [2 light mechs and 2 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [2 medium mechs and 2 heavy mechs].
  
• Recon Lance: 80-140
  
• 1^st Striker Lance: 160-220
  
• 2^nd Striker Lance: 200-260
  
• Total Drop Weight Limit: 440-620 tons

Independent Companies

• Dragoon Company: 1 recon lance [2 light mechs and 2 medium mechs], 1 lance of Heavy mechs [4 heavy mechs], and 1 lance of Heavy-Assault [1 heavy mech and 3 assault mechs].
  
• Recon Lance: 120-180
  
• Heavy Lance: 240-300
  
• Heavy-Assault Lance: 300-375
  
• Total Drop Weight Limit: 660-855 tons

• Hussar Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [2 medium mechs and 2 heavy mechs].
  
• Recon Lance: 80-140
  
• Striker Lance: 160-220
  
• Heavy Lance: 190-260
  
• Total Drop Weight Limit: 440-620 tons

• Light Horse Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [2 light mechs and 2 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [2 medium mechs and 2 heavy mechs].
  
• Recon Lance: 80-140
  
• 1^st Striker Lance: 160-220
  
• 2^nd Striker Lance: 200-260
  
• Total Drop Weight Limit: 440-620 tons

House Unit Limits

House Davion

• Militias, Lancer, Light Cavalry, Cavalier, and Chasseur units adhere to the Striker drop limits.
  
• Fusilier units adhere to the Dragoon drop limits.
  
• Hussars are the same.
  
• Davion Guards utilizes Heavy-Assault, Battle, and Striker drop limits depending upon the unit.

House Steiner

• Guards adhere to Battle or Heavy-Assault drop limits depending upon the unit.
  
• Royal Guards adhere to the Heavy-Assault drop limits.
  
• Jager, Cavalier, and Regulars use Striker drop limits.

House Kurita

• Regulars and Sword of Light adhere to Heavy-Assault, Battle, or Striker drop limits depending upon the unit.
  
• Genyosha and Otomo adhere to Heavy-Assault drop limits.
  
• Izanagi Warriors adhere to Battle drop limits.
  
• Amphigean Light Assault Group, Arkab Legion, Ghost, Regulars, Night Stalkers, and Legion of Vega adheres to Striker drop limits.
  
• Ryuken adhere to Dragoon drop limits.
  
• Hussars adhere to Hussar drop limits.

House Marik

• Defenders of Andurien and Legionnaires Heavy-Assault, Battle, or Striker drop limits depending upon the unit.
  
• Guards adhere to Striker drop limits.
  
• Hussars adhere to Hussar drop limits.
  
• Dragoons and Fusilier adhere to Dragoon drop limits.
  
• Grenadiers adhere to Heavy-Assault drop limits.

House Liao

House Liao would use the same drop limits as previously stated for similarly named units in other Houses. For example, Grenadiers adhere to Heavy-Assault drop limits.
This should be the ideal drop weights based upon what a unit is classified as. Lone wolves would have to adopt this structure for CW drops. Merc and House units are already classified accordingly. Some exceptions would apply to some Houses like Steiner that fields the most mechs that weigh between 60-75 tons.

Clans

All Clan units are designated into the following categories: Striker, Battle, and Assault. Clans no longer use Dragoon, Hussar, and Light Horse designations of independent units. For the purposes of MWO, I will assume that the games will be a Binary vs. an IS Company i.e. 10 vs. 12.

• Heavy Assault Binary: 1 recon star [3 light mechs and 2 medium mechs] and 1 star of Heavy-Assault mechs [3 heavy mechs and 2 assault mechs].
  
• Recon Star: 140-215 tons
  
• Heavy-Assault Star: 340-425 tons
  
• Drop Weight Limit: 480-640 tons

• Battle Binary: 1 recon star [2 light mechs and 3 medium mechs] and 1 heavy star [3 medium mechs and 2 heavy mechs].
  
• Recon Star: 160-235 tons
  
• Heavy Star: 240-315 tons
  
• Drop Weight Limit: 400-550 tons

• Striker Binary: 1 recon star [4 light mechs and 1 medium mech] and a striker star [3 medium mechs and 2 heavy mechs].
  
• Recon Star: 120-195 tons
  
• Striker Star: 270-315 tons
  
• Drop Weight Limit: 390-510 tons

This is to be used in conjunction with Community Warfare Meta-Economy Part 1 and Part 2.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 26 August 2013 - 03:59 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

How this would work out is that the following types of units will use these drop limits.

Battle Company: 620-860 tons
Striker Company: 360-600 tons
Dragoon Company: 640-920 tons
Hussar Company: 440-660 tons
Light Horse Company: 360-600 tons

[3rdworld]

Tonnage limits themselves don't really accomplish much other than limiting the number of assaults and increasing the number of lights. You also need to incorporate some form of a min of X class, if you really want variety.

Edited by 3rdworld, 08 August 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

3rdworld, on 08 August 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Tonnage limits themselves don't really accomplish much other than limiting the number of assaults and increasing the number of lights. You also need to incorporate some form of a min of X class, if you really want variety.

You still aren't reading the original post, but that's par for the course with you. If you had read it you would see that I did put in a minimum and maximum of each weight class. So how's reading comprehension been for you?

[Bilbo]

3rdworld, on 08 August 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Tonnage limits themselves don't really accomplish much other than limiting the number of assaults and increasing the number of lights. You also need to incorporate some form of a min of X class, if you really want variety.

QFT. Light heavy matches are no more fun than Assault heavy matches unless you are running the lights.

[3rdworld]

James The Fox Dixon, on 08 August 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

You still aren't reading the original post, but that's par for the course with you. If you had read it you would see that I did put in a minimum and maximum of each weight class. So how's reading comprehension been for you?

And no where in there does it say anything about a min number of mediums, or heavies. In fact it mentions using weight based drops in the last paragraph and your first reply to the thread.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, too much is bolded in the points, IMHO.

But the numbers should work out well, just more detail by class I guess, to get a better sense for those restrictions.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Bilbo, on 08 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

QFT. Light heavy matches are no more fun than Assault heavy matches unless you are running the lights.

*Sigh* Let me make it easier for you both.

• Heavy Assault Company: 1 recon lance [1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs] and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs [4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs].
  
• Drop Weight Limit: 640-920 tons
  
• Battle Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-3 heavy mechs].
  
• Drop Weight Limit: 450-640 tons
  
• Striker Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].
  
• Drop Weight Limit: 360-600 tons
  
• Dragoon Company: 1 recon lance [1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs] and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs [4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs].
  
• Drop Weight Limit: 640-920 tons
  
• Hussar Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].
  
• Drop Weight Limit: 440-660 tons
  
• Light Horse Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].
  
• Drop Weight Limit: 360-600 tons

3rdworld, on 08 August 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

And no where in there does it say anything about a min number of mediums, or heavies. In fact it mentions using weight based drops in the last paragraph and your first reply to the thread.

Last sentence of the first paragraph: I'll use Sarna as a reference with my comments in parenthesis and in bold.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 08 August 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

James The Fox Dixon, on 08 August 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I'm a firm believer in having enforced drop limits based upon the lore. As such, I would follow what it is canon on mech formations and Merc units must adopt one of these formations in order to better simulate what mech combat should be like in the BT universe. I'll use Sarna as a reference with my comments in parenthesis and in bold.

• Heavy Assault BattleMech regiments consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs and a fourth company of artillery. The main assault force of the SLDF, most corps possessed at least a single Heavy Assault regiment. (In MWO terms this would be a company that is comprised of 1 recon lance and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs. In simpler terms it would consist of 1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs, 4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs.)
  
• Battle BattleMech regiments were the core of most BattleMech brigades, consisting of medium-to-heavy weight 'Mechs.(Comprised of 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].
  
• Striker BattleMech regiments were reconnaissance and breakthrough formations. Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs, they also included a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs, and usually had pairs of ASF assigned for their use. (1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].
  
• Dragoon BattleMech regiments were composed of heavy-to-assault weight 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft, their primary purpose being to fight against well-equipped enemies. (1 recon lance and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs. In simpler terms it would consist of 1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs, 4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs.)
  
• Hussar BattleMech regiments were the most common of the Independent regiments, composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.(Comprised of 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].
  
• Light Horse BattleMech regiments were primarily reconnaissance units, often the first one dropped onto a world to discover the enemy's strengths. Emphasizing light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts. (1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].

This should be the ideal drop weights based upon what a unit is classified as. Lone wolves would have to adopt this structure for CW drops. Merc and House units are already classified accordingly. Some exceptions would apply to some Houses like Steiner that fields the most mechs that weigh between 60-75 tons.

I... Was not expecting this. I like what I see here. With all the RAWR ASSAULTS I thought this was going to be another enforce mediums! Thanks for a good explanation of how units were broke down in the Universe so folks from just the video games can see what unis can/should be built like.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 August 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I... Was not expecting this. I like what I see here. With all the RAWR ASSAULTS I thought this was going to be another enforce mediums! Thanks for a good explanation of how units were broke down in the Universe so folks from just the video games can see what unis can/should be built like.

Well, I'm glad I could knock your socks off Joseph. It's been awhile since I was able to. Does this mean I'll finally get a like from you?

On a more serious note, I figured I would post it to show people how units are put together in the universe, so they can start tactically planning and get away from the blobs. It also reinforces the feel that we're really in the Battletech universe and not some CoD mech clone that just uses the name MechWarrior.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

There are alternatives. Maybe have an Battle, skirmisher and recon lances.
Battle would be assaults and heavies - maybe with a 350 ton limit..
Skirmisher could be fast heavies and mediums - possibly with a 250 ton limit.
Recon could be lights and fast mediums - perhaps with a 160 ton limit.
You "sign up" for one of these before drop and the MM then makes up lances and then companies based on Elo etc
I'm sure there are problems I haven't considered but it might be worth a try. Premades could form their own lances if a 4

[3rdworld]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 08 August 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

There are alternatives. Maybe have an Battle, skirmisher and recon lances.
Battle would be assaults and heavies - maybe with a 350 ton limit..
Skirmisher could be fast heavies and mediums - possibly with a 250 ton limit.
Recon could be lights and fast mediums - perhaps with a 160 ton limit.
You "sign up" for one of these before drop and the MM then makes up lances and then companies based on Elo etc
I'm sure there are problems I haven't considered but it might be worth a try. Premades could form their own lances if a 4

Drop limits do have issues for sure.

They work more like affirmative action than an actual fix.

For instance on his Heavy Assault drop deck.

We would just run:

35*4
70*4
90*4
780

Which is the problem with any forced restrictions. It isn't making x mech useful, it is just forcing someone to have to play it.

[James The Fox Dixon]

3rdworld, on 08 August 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Drop limits do have issues for sure.

They work more like affirmative action than an actual fix.

For instance on his Heavy Assault drop deck.

We would just run:

35*4
70*4
90*4
780

Which is the problem with any forced restrictions. It isn't making x mech useful, it is just forcing someone to have to play it.

If you want a well balanced force then you would have to use certain mech weights to fulfill those roles. In your plan, you are missing medium mechs from your force, namely the ECM Cicada, that can hunt opposing lights or supplement the main force through the use of high speed and maneuverability. This means that another force composition can take you apart at their leisure, namely Light Horse/Strikers. The Strikers/Light Horse would chew up your light lance through swarm tactics rendering your heavy and assault mechs blind. Through the use of harassment tactics it could separate your two remaining lances from each other then swarm them one by one. Just because you can stack your force mech with heavier mechs does not mean that you can automatically win against another force composition that isn't as heavy as yours.

Your force also lacks in ECM, so that Light Horse/Striker unit can attack with impunity as they do have ECM and other information warfare goodies.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 08 August 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[VanillaG]

3rdworld, on 08 August 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Drop limits do have issues for sure.

They work more like affirmative action than an actual fix.

For instance on his Heavy Assault drop deck.

We would just run:

35*4
70*4
90*4
780

Which is the problem with any forced restrictions. It isn't making x mech useful, it is just forcing someone to have to play it.

I disagree. Putting in restrictions make every mechs useful. Currently without restrictions everyone is moving toward bigger is better. How would your sample drop deck look if you had a max tonnage of 750? The tricky part is finding the sweet spots for tonnage where have to make a decision between bringing "good" mechs at a certain weight class and "bad" mechs in a different class. Setup properly it should be impossible to bring only "good" mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 08 August 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Drop limits do have issues for sure.

They work more like affirmative action than an actual fix.

For instance on his Heavy Assault drop deck.

We would just run:

35*4
70*4
90*4
780

Which is the problem with any forced restrictions. It isn't making x mech useful, it is just forcing someone to have to play it.

However if you are good in Mech X you will be more productive than me if I am not particularly good in said Mech. If everyone is playing in what they are good at a team should do better than if you have me trying to pilot a Jenner (It is really fun though! ).

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 08 August 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

They work more like affirmative action than an actual fix

Exactly. Its a bad fix at that.

Rather than encouraging people to play lights and mediums youre FORCING them to. But youre not fixing the reasons why people dont want to play them.

Whats going to happen if you dont make people want to play lights and mediums but bottleneck games with weight limits is that queue times are going increase significantly due to a shortage of light and medium pilots.

This is what I feel should be done:
1) Make lights and mediums worth piloting.
2) Impose a min limit of 2 of each weight class in 12v12.

That is similar to weight limits but not as ridiculous.

Edited by Khobai, 08 August 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, it seems that Heavy Assault and Dragoon Companies can bring 920 tons to bear in a fight.

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 08 August 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Khobai, on 08 August 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Exactly. Its a bad fix at that.

Rather than encouraging people to play lights and mediums youre FORCING them to. But youre not fixing the reasons why people dont want to play them.

Whats going to happen if you dont make people want to play lights and mediums but bottleneck games with weight limits is that queue times are going increase significantly due to a shortage of light and medium pilots.
.

Let me guess you like CoD mech clone and not MechWarrior/Battletech.... Should we just remove all mechs that don't weigh under 100 tons and play only with Atlases? I don't have to say anymore.

Que times would not increase as the MM would be looking specifically for those numbers and force mixes.

Praetor Shepard, on 08 August 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Well, it seems that Heavy Assault and Dragoon Companys can bring 920 tons to bear in a fight.

Yes, they can bring that much, but it's not much of an advantage given that mechs are customizable and that the other force compositions are a direct counter to it. Think of the force compositions as Battletech's version of rock, paper, scissors. Each one counters the others through the specific mixing of various weight classes that fulfill specific roles. With this we suddenly have role warfare which is one of the goals of MWO to have in the game.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 08 August 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Let me guess you like CoD mech clone and not MechWarrior/Battletech.... Should we just remove all mechs that don't weigh under 100 tons and play only with Atlases? I don't have to say anymore.

No we should make people want to play lights and mediums by buffing them. I already said as much.

Weight limits are dumb. They dont fix the actual problem... they just increase the queue time and make the queue bottlenecked by the scarcity light and medium pilots. I for one do not want triple wait times on queues.

What needs to be done is to encourage the player base to play all four weight classes in roughly equal proportion. Then maybe force 2 of each weight class into a game if its still necessary. But there is absolutely no need to balance tonnage, and in fact its a largely meaningless metric.

-Tiny Mechs like the Commando need massive buffs (cant outrun or outgun a Jenner)
-Small Mechs like the Jenner are pretty much fine as is (aside from hit detection issues which will be fixed)
-Medium Mechs need an overall buff to agility as well as fixing their scaling issues.
-Light/Medium killing weapons like PPCs still need to be balanced, specifically PPC projectile speed.

Edited by Khobai, 08 August 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

James The Fox Dixon, on 08 August 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Yes, they can bring that much, but it's not much of an advantage given that mechs are customizable and that the other force compositions are a direct counter to it. Think of the force compositions as Battletech's version of rock, paper, scissors. Each one counters the others through the specific mixing of various weight classes that fulfill specific roles. With this we suddenly have role warfare which is one of the goals of MWO to have in the game.

Well, in theory, the 920 tons could allow for a 12 mech force like this:

Atlas D-DC - 100
Atlas D-DC
Atlas D-DC
Atlas D-DC
Orion -75
Orion
Orion
Orion
Orion
Shadowhawk / Golden Boy - 55
Shadowhawk
RVN-3L / Jenner - 35