70 replies to this topic

[Tennex]

theres no penalty its a bug :\

it even comes on if you stagger fire 2 AC2s.

[General Taskeen]

Kind of funny how something so terrifying (aka not terrifying) as a Jager standing still with 2xAC/2's and 2xAC/'5's firing heat neutral in TT can't be a thing in MWO, because of borked heat sinks for SHS and DHS and the whole threshold programming.

[Koniving]

General Taskeen, on 09 August 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Kind of funny how something so terrifying (aka not terrifying) as a Jager standing still with 2xAC/2's and 2xAC/'5's firing heat neutral in TT can't be a thing in MWO, because of borked heat sinks for SHS and DHS and the whole threshold programming.

Semi off topic but..

Spoiler

A heat neutral Jagermech in TT wouldn't be heat neutral even with TT rules in MWO.
Jagermech fires once every 10 seconds in TT. In real time they fire much faster.

Firing rate demonstration.


Fun fact, I have 16 DHS. It takes 30 base + (10 *2 engine DHS) + (6*1.4 chassis heatsinks) + (Heat containment 10% * 2) = 70.08 heat to shut me down.
I cool it down at (10 *2 engine DHS) + (6*1.4 chassis heatsinks) = 28.4 + (Cool Run 7.5% * 2) = 32.66 per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.266 cooling per second.

If the heat system was proper... I have 16 DHS. 30 heat to shutdown. 3.2 cooling per second.

If the heat system was proper plus MWO unlocks. 30 capacity + (Heat containment 10% * 2) = 36 heat to shutdown.
3.2 + (Cool Run 7.5% * 2) = 3.68.

The cooling is slightly faster, but you shutdown at 30 instead of 70.08. That's a lot less dakka, making it a lot more fair. With what's demonstrated in MWO's system by the time I shut down I deal more than 300 damage if I'm 100% accurate. If I alpha strike instead I'd deal over 500 in a shorter window.

Back directly on topic: Supposedly we'll see the AC/2 ninja nerf issue addressed in one or two patches. It does not sound like the address will be favorable.

[Koniving]

Tennex, on 09 August 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

theres no penalty its a bug :\
it even comes on if you stagger fire 2 AC2s.

It happens if you stagger fire any AC/2s.
But as I said to you last time, the support response is "A penalty applying to non-alpha fired AC2s is intentional. There is a bug in which the penalty heat is set too high."

[General Taskeen]

Koniving, on 09 August 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

Semi off topic but..

Spoiler

A heat neutral Jagermech in TT wouldn't be heat neutral even with TT rules in MWO.
Jagermech fires once every 10 seconds in TT. In real time they fire much faster.

Firing rate demonstration.


Fun fact, I have 16 DHS. It takes 30 base + (10 *2 engine DHS) + (6*1.4 chassis heatsinks) + (Heat containment 10% * 2) = 70.08 heat to shut me down.
I cool it down at (10 *2 engine DHS) + (6*1.4 chassis heatsinks) = 28.4 + (Cool Run 7.5% * 2) = 32.66 per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.266 cooling per second.

If the heat system was proper... I have 16 DHS. 30 heat to shutdown. 3.2 cooling per second.

If the heat system was proper plus MWO unlocks. 30 capacity + (Heat containment 10% * 2) = 36 heat to shutdown.
3.2 + (Cool Run 7.5% * 2) = 3.68.

The cooling is slightly faster, but you shutdown at 30 instead of 70.08. That's a lot less dakka, making it a lot more fair. With what's demonstrated in MWO's system by the time I shut down I deal more than 300 damage if I'm 100% accurate. If I alpha strike instead I'd deal over 500 in a shorter window.

Back directly on topic: Supposedly we'll see the AC/2 ninja nerf issue addressed in one or two patches. It does not sound like the address will be favorable.

It's not really that off topic, because it relates to it. HPS in combination with fire rates and heat sinks was not readily taken into account. Hence why the AC/2 produces like 200% more heat compared to the game 'rules' it came from. Plus, exacerbated to the extreme by heat penalities and/or heat bugs.

[scJazz]

Koniving, on 08 August 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Support says this is intentional. The penalty rate is higher than it is supposed to be and will be addressed in an upcoming patch.

I can see the Game Design Engineer behind this and his conversation with the lowly Technical Engineer aka Coder...

GDE: Add AC2s to the ghost heat penalty thingy!
TE: You do realize that your specifications for the ghost heat penalty thingy included 0.5 seconds aka "chain fire" as the threshold right?
GDE: SHUTUP AND DO IT!
TE: OK no problem... I get paid whether or not you are an i d i o t! (BTW: AC2s have a firing rate of 0.25 seconds or half the threshold for the penalty that you insisted I use)
GDE: ZOMG mathz! WTF?!? You are supposed to deal with that!
TE: WTF?!? You have to tell me to do stuff with math as a background because that is the way CODE works!
GDE: Just do it!
TE: You realize you just insisted I break AC2s and UAC5s right?
GDE: Shut up I'm planning my xmas vacation with the bonuses I get for being brilliant!
SUPPORT: Ummmm people are reporting some weird stuff happening that wasn't in the docu....
GDE: SHUT UP XMAS VACATION PLANZ NAOW!

[Tennex]

Koniving, on 09 August 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

But as I said to you last time, the support response is "A penalty applying to non-alpha fired AC2s is intentional. There is a bug in which the penalty heat is set too high."

I hope we get an dev response in this thread

cuz the last dev response to the AC2 issue in a previous patch said it was a bug.


I just don't see why they would implement an alpha stopping penalty on a weapon being staggerfired, and force it to fire in alpha. very counter intuitive.

jesus, i would like to see paul's command post explaining this.

Edited by Tennex, 09 August 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Koniving]

Me too.

[scJazz]

Tennex, on 09 August 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

I just don't see why they would implement an alpha stopping penalty on a weapon being staggerfired, and force it to fire in alpha. very counter intuitive.

jesus, i would like to see paul's command post explaining this.

Why? I already explained it. All he can do now is back away from the dumb and insert meatshield much like we do with ECM Atlai in Green Paint.

PS: I thought of it! Increase AC2 cooldown to 0.5. Increase damage to 4. To bring it in line with AC5!

Or

Sorry massively complicated coding issue... (simple XML file edit/read)... caused me to do something horrifically stupid just hours before I left for vacation having come up with ghost heat as a solution to AlphaStrikes.

Edited by scJazz, 09 August 2013 - 08:42 PM.

[Tennex]

scJazz, on 09 August 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Why? I already explained it. All he can do now is back away from the dumb and insert meatshield much like we do with ECM Atlai in Green Paint.

lolwut.

[scJazz]

Tennex, on 09 August 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

lolwut.

I already explained how the d00mbz got into the game. There is no explanation possible since the d00mbz originates with a "chief". To acknowledge the d00mbz would be antithetical to the entire zomg m r gr8 game designer/owner platform. Hence it can not happen. So... we will be tossed a cookie as a distraction while a new entirely more effed up plan is inserted, or more likely my AC2 double time, double damage fix will be inserted.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Koniving, on 09 August 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

It happens if you stagger fire any AC/2s.
But as I said to you last time, the support response is "A penalty applying to non-alpha fired AC2s is intentional. There is a bug in which the penalty heat is set too high."

PGI Destined responded to a similar thread 3 days ago, but it already got buried after it got locked, saying that it is a known issue that they are investigating: http://mwomercs.com/...d-heat-penalty/

[Koniving]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 09 August 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

PGI Destined responded to a similar thread 3 days ago, but it already got buried after it got locked, saying that it is a known issue that they are investigating: http://mwomercs.com/...d-heat-penalty/

I'm aware. Next patch or two it's supposed "to be fixed to a much lower scale but not removed."

That's what irks me.

Edited by Koniving, 11 August 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Taxxian]

Yesterday I constructed an 5 AC2 Jager for fun.

Left Mouse: AlphaStrike
Right Mouse: Build in Chain-fire

if I hold down Right Mouse and at some Point press Left for Alpha, one Weapon will be out of sync and I simply shut down immediately... (ok after 2 shots, but thats just 1 sec...)

I am normally a rather patient player, I even defended PGI in numerous threads because they are trying to fix various problems at all times BUT:

Undocumented nerfs and deliberately ignoring nearly all Forum Posts about the topic is absolutely lame. There has to be an announcement or Command-Chair post about that, so we know what exactly is happening!

its the same about the Missile-Tubes-Bug that is affecting lots of Mechs since... erm... half a year?

@PGI:
I know you are trying to do your best, and you cant do it as fast as the communitiy wants you to, but you at least should respond to such ninja bugnerfs/nerfbugs so we know if its intentional and why it is so!

[Josef Koba]

In my opinion, the intent is for you to not have more than 2 of any given weapon system on a single mech. So, like, one small laser, one med pulse, one PPC, one AC2, etc, etc. I think that this will please those folks who complain about cheese builds and the like. Just one of each weapon, up to the maximum hardpoints for your chassis. That'll fix all you cheese builders!

[Trev Firestorm]

Had a little back and forth with support, here's the emails.

Spoiler

Reppu (MechWarrior® Online™)
Aug 13 12:42 (PDT)
Hello Trev Firestorm,
This is in fact working as intended. The reason heat is climbing so fast with how you're pressing those keys is that you're firing a LOT of shots in a very short period of time.
Using the method you described on a Jagermech with 4x AC/2s: One can fire roughly 17 shots within 2 seconds - this got me from 10% base heat on Tourmaline to 100% as well. I think it's warranted because you're firing considerably faster than the built-in recycle rate on those weapons. After one or two cycles, you've got your main trigger constantly firing, while your rotation is adding extra shots between the trigger shots. Powerful? Oh yes, very. Hence the heat results.

Regards,
Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™
Reppu (MechWarrior® Online™)
Aug 13 12:42 (PDT)
Hello Trev Firestorm,
This is in fact working as intended. The reason heat is climbing so fast with how you're pressing those keys is that you're firing a LOT of shots in a very short period of time.
Using the method you described on a Jagermech with 4x AC/2s: One can fire roughly 17 shots within 2 seconds - this got me from 10% base heat on Tourmaline to 100% as well. I think it's warranted because you're firing considerably faster than the built-in recycle rate on those weapons. After one or two cycles, you've got your main trigger constantly firing, while your rotation is adding extra shots between the trigger shots. Powerful? Oh yes, very. Hence the heat results.

Regards,
Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™
Trev Firestorm
Aug 13 12:03 (PDT)
I have all in group 1, one in group 2, one in 3, one in 4, I roll my fingers over 2,3,4 then hold trigger in the old cbt manual chainfire method since the new/built in chainfire throttles the fire rate on the AC/2 and is pointless unless you click really fast to setup the stagger.
Reppu (MechWarrior® Online™)
Aug 13 11:53 (PDT)
Hello Trev Firestorm,

Before I can give you a proper answer, I have one question: are you using chain-fire with the AC/2s ?
Regards,
Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™
Trev Firestorm
Aug 09 07:46 (PDT)
I've been seeing reports that support has told people that the extra heat bug on AC/2s is /intentional/ but set too high, that sounds ridiculous as the AC/2 is already a barely viable weapon but is it true?
Speculation is that its to cut back on macro users, problem is I've been doing the AC/2 machine gun without macros since closed beta, its primary purpose is for suppression, the removal of which destroys most of the utility of that weapon.
This email is a service from MechWarrior® Online™.

Seems they don't understand basic math and think you can somehow magically increase your total rof by chainfiring.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Yeah, he missed the point, but then you could have kept your example much simpler by using only 2 AC2s, and show that the huge penalty occurs even when you're letting the timer control the rate of fire, not your finger speed, the only difference is if the timing between the two is staggered just slightly because you came off of the chainfire button and hit the group fire button when one of them was still on cooldown. Once he heard you were firing them singly in multiple groups, he immediately took the stance that you were trying to manipulate the cooldown timers.

ETA: just tested this again, and timed how many rounds went downrange using group fire with both AC2s on the same schedule vs. group fire after switching over from chain fire so that the rounds are slightly staggered. Both scenarios sent the same # of rounds downrange, 4 per second, but the second scenario results in overheating in just a few seconds and the first results in negligible heat. Maybe it just sounds too fast for their ears that they aren't bothering to count how many rounds are really being fired in each case. I am hoping Garth answers my question related to this on the next NGNG podcast.

Edited by Sarsaparilla Kid, 13 August 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[Rippthrough]

Well, it explains the constant f**kups with game balance when their own support guys don't even know either basic math or how the damned weapons actually function.

Edited by Rippthrough, 14 August 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Quote

think it's warranted because you're firing considerably faster than the built-in recycle rate on those weapons.

That's nonsense. That some players don't understand it, okay, but support should know better.

The only way to make a weapon faster than its built-in recycl erate is if you have the fast fire efficiency, which is an intentional and fully controlled feature.

The only thing you can do is chain-fire manually or "macroally" faster than the build-in chain-fire delay, but the chain-fire delay is not based on the weapon, and is too long for weapons that have a rate of fire like the AC/2.

I suppose the only consolation is that the support team might know nothing about the game code in the first place and is probably just guessing here, but it's still not good.

[Trev Firestorm]

Trev Firestorm, on 13 August 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Update:

Spoiler

Reppu (MechWarrior® Online™)
Aug 14 08:44 (PDT)
Hello Trev Firestorm,
I'm not counting shots, I'm just watching the ammo counter drop. The last tests I did myself I had 30 shots left, heat level was at its lowest (idle on Tourmaline)
-Started hitting 2,3,4
-Hit Mouse-1 and held it
-After the second or third cycle of 2,3,4 I'd notice the heat suddenly climb a lot faster and the ammo count drop as well, overheat occurred after 17 shots from 30 (Ammo counter was at 13)
That said, I was poking at it further today, and I realized I can just use 2,3,4 alone and mashing those three heavily will result in irregular heat spikes. I'll pass that on to the devs as it goes against the chain fire description they gave me. [color=#500050]


Regards,
Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™ [/color]
[color=#444444]
[/color]

Trev Firestorm
Aug 14 01:35 (PDT)
I just realized to get 17 shots in 2 secconds you must have fast fire, if you alpha strike the same quad ac/2 in 2seeconds you get 20shots rather than just 17. [color=#444444]
[/color]

Trev Firestorm
Aug 13 16:08 (PDT)
You need to look at your math again, its not firing more shots or firing faster, it actually slows down your dps slightly because you're spreading your initial shots out, not firing faster than the normal recycle rate. alpha firing is 4 shots in .5 seconds, staggering ideally also gets those 4 shots in the .5 seconds but spaces them out, spreading damage and creating a suppressive fire effect, the initial dps drop is minimal but its still there plus dps stays exactly the same as alpha firing, except that instead of getting 8 damage on one location (per shot) you get 2 damage per location(per shot) as it tends to spread about while your aim and the target move about.

We'll see...