70 replies to this topic

[Trev Firestorm]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 13 August 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

Yeah, he missed the point, but then you could have kept your example much simpler by using only 2 AC2s, and show that the huge penalty occurs even when you're letting the timer control the rate of fire, not your finger speed, the only difference is if the timing between the two is staggered just slightly because you came off of the chainfire button and hit the group fire button when one of them was still on cooldown. Once he heard you were firing them singly in multiple groups, he immediately took the stance that you were trying to manipulate the cooldown timers.

ETA: just tested this again, and timed how many rounds went downrange using group fire with both AC2s on the same schedule vs. group fire after switching over from chain fire so that the rounds are slightly staggered. Both scenarios sent the same # of rounds downrange, 4 per second, but the second scenario results in overheating in just a few seconds and the first results in negligible heat. Maybe it just sounds too fast for their ears that they aren't bothering to count how many rounds are really being fired in each case. I am hoping Garth answers my question related to this on the next NGNG podcast.

Yeah I should have but didn't think about it as I was kind of raging about trying to run the quad ac/2 (the sole reason I logged on that day) and finding I still could not, someone else want to run that through support or should I just add that to the thread I've got going?

Added:

Spoiler

On that line, it was pointed out to me, and I just checked, you can create this problem with just 2 ac/2s set slightly off from each other, for example a blackjack where each ac/2 is on a different trigger so you can fire without hitting terrain, fire one while walking out from cover then hit the other they will fire out of sync from each other and create the heat spike.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 14 August 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

You should be able to continue your support thread, and yes, the example you added covers one of the reasons why you might get off-sync with your separate arms...firing around cover or even around a friendly with the AC2 on one side of your mech until you have a fully unobstructed view and can then trigger the AC2 on the other side.

ETA: and I'll see if Garth has a comment on my question on this issue on tonight's NGNG podcast.

Edited by Sarsaparilla Kid, 14 August 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[Trev Firestorm]

Another update

Spoiler

Reppu (MechWarrior® Online™)
Aug 14 13:40 (PDT)
Hello Trev Firestorm,
Further review has further clarified how this is as intended.
First, there is a Max Alpha value for AC/2s: that's 4. (It's not in Paul's post on the Command Chair yet so I wasn't certain on that)
What's happening with the firing method is that it's keeping so many shots under the timer for Max Alpha that it never gets a chance to reset, resulting in some ridiculous heat generation.
See the "table" below - note I have NO idea what's going to happen to the alignment of this thing after I send it, however it should be 3 columns: Shots Group 1 Group 2
Shot # is under Shots
Then Group 1 has the first timer, Group 2 has the second one, then you just keep alternating.
Shots Group 1 Group 2
Shot 1 0.52
Shot 2 _______0.75
Shot 3 1.04
Shot 4 _______1.27 Heat penalty starts here and stacks as the penalty is applied for each additional shot over the limit.
Shot 5 1.56
Shot 6 ________1.79
Shot 7 2.08
Shot 8 ________2.31
Shot 9 2.6
Shot 10 _______2.83
Let me know how the formatting looks on your end, I'm curious as to how our ticketing system handles that.
Thanks!

Regards,
Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

The email version messed the formatting up, working on fixing it for the post.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 14 August 2013 - 01:09 PM.

[Sharp Spikes]

OMGWTF! I have a feeling at some point of time we will have (undocumented) max alpha value for machineguns too. With heat penalty of course.

[ZedekiahCromwell]

You're really just trying to get me to leave the game, aren't you PGI? Heaven forbid I take a 3 AC/2 Hunchback because that's just too damn effective! Everyone knows that's all the competitive teams take these days!

And this whole idea of tracking the shots even if fired sequentially is monumentally dumb, even if you try to do what PGI wants you to do and alpha like a good boy. When you hold alpha fire with AC/2s, they actually come unsynced on their own sometimes. It's a brilliant thing, and being smacked with a heat penalty no matter what I do is patently ridiculous.

I stopped playing WH40K after 5 years of continual involvement and thousands of dollars invested because they stopped caring about their consumer. What makes you think I won't do the same when you decide to throw out ridiculous patches that completely ruin builds that are underpowered if everything? I'm seriously at the point that the next thing like this or Cbills nerf (because veterans were earning too much, who cares about those noobs who just started and quit?) and I'm done. Out. I could deal with these type of horrendous decisions if you actually communicated with your customers, but it's obvious you guys just can't be bothered.

[NinetyProof]

Look ... the AC/2 machine gun like build/macros were more of a "grief" build then anything else ... so don't go crying a river cause it got nerfed.

Frankly, if anybody that was running that build is going to quit cause they can't grief anymore ... good bye ... go riddance.

OH NOES, something didn't make it into the Beta Patch Notes ... Tar and Feather I say ... and run out of town on a rail!

[ZedekiahCromwell]

NinetyProof, on 14 August 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Look ... the AC/2 machine gun like build/macros were more of a "grief" build then anything else ... so don't go crying a river cause it got nerfed.

Frankly, if anybody that was running that build is going to quit cause they can't grief anymore ... good bye ... go riddance.

OH NOES, something didn't make it into the Beta Patch Notes ... Tar and Feather I say ... and run out of town on a rail!

Did you read my post? A mass-AC/2 buidl is unplayable, period. They will become desynced just by firing them, at which point you're getting a heat penalty even though you are doing exactly what PGI wants you to do. And have fun if you have 2 AC/2s on each arm of a Jager and are trying to fit your shots around your teammates in a brawl.

And I don't use macros or any other added element to the game, but my preferred build is a griefer build? Hey champ, I fire all 3 weapons in two groups. One group is chainfire for tracer rounds, the other is alpha fire for when I have shots lined up. But hey, obviously I'm griefing and hurting the game.

You know what they say about assumptions. They make you look like an ***. Oh wait, that's what I say,

Edited by ZedekiahCromwell, 14 August 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

NinetyProof...this may have been a stealth mechanic introduced to nerf macro usage, but it's having an unintended consequence of nerfing a simple 2 AC2 build that goes out of sequence in firing by just normally holding down the firing buttons. As ZedekiahCromwell points out, and I've experienced this as well, even 2 AC2s grouped and fired with one button can get out of time, due to lag or some other reason, and that generates the heat penalty as well. If they want to introduce a heat penalty, fine, but announce it and then expect feedback on how certain situations generate the heat penalty that have nothing to do with the intended nerf on macro builds.

[Autoxidation]

Trev Firestorm, on 14 August 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Another update

Spoiler

Reppu (MechWarrior® Online™)
Aug 14 13:40 (PDT)
Hello Trev Firestorm,
Further review has further clarified how this is as intended.
First, there is a Max Alpha value for AC/2s: that's 4. (It's not in Paul's post on the Command Chair yet so I wasn't certain on that)
What's happening with the firing method is that it's keeping so many shots under the timer for Max Alpha that it never gets a chance to reset, resulting in some ridiculous heat generation.
See the "table" below - note I have NO idea what's going to happen to the alignment of this thing after I send it, however it should be 3 columns: Shots Group 1 Group 2
Shot # is under Shots
Then Group 1 has the first timer, Group 2 has the second one, then you just keep alternating.
Shots Group 1 Group 2
Shot 1 0.52
Shot 2 _______0.75
Shot 3 1.04
Shot 4 _______1.27 Heat penalty starts here and stacks as the penalty is applied for each additional shot over the limit.
Shot 5 1.56
Shot 6 ________1.79
Shot 7 2.08
Shot 8 ________2.31
Shot 9 2.6
Shot 10 _______2.83
Let me know how the formatting looks on your end, I'm curious as to how our ticketing system handles that.
Thanks!

Regards,
Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

The email version messed the formatting up, working on fixing it for the post.

This is ******** and needs to be relooked at.

What's next, machine guns? Will we have to chain fire those too in order to avoid ghost heat?

[Kaptain]

I disagree with max alphas for AC2. Also, I only have a single AC2 on one of my Atlas.

Jagers and Phracts should be allowed to use multiple ac2s IMO.

[Sharp Spikes]

NinetyProof, have you ever heard about a mech called "Firebrand"? In stock configuration it has AC/2 and PPC in each arm. As travel speed of PPC bolt and AC/2 projectile are the same, people usually bind left arm weapons to LMB and right arm weapons to RMB... You see where it goes?

When some guy in Firebrand fires left arm weapons and then right arm weapons and holds both mouse buttons down to continue to fire AC/2s he suddenly gets screwed.
I saw how that happens with my own eyes when I was ghost-riding one Firebrand yesterday.

[MaxStr]

Well another DPS weapon, thats still broken/worse for over a month now. Clearly this is not a priority, as fixing/buffing DPS weapons could provide an alternative to the holy Alpha Meta. Focus is best spent on selling heroes mechs and credit mechs for MC.

[redlance]

absolute ********. the ONLY thing the AC/2 had going for it got ripped out of the game. the ac/2 is joke. it's getting pretty hard not to HATE this weapon balancing team.

Edited by redlance, 14 August 2013 - 06:48 PM.

[Arcturious]

I was running my AC2 VTR and came up against another one running 2x AC two.

We both started firing at each other. Heat was getting high, so I backed off the Alpha and started waiting before taking a shot.

The other VTR started chain firing his AC2's. "No you poor fool!" I tried to shout through the screen but it was too late. He overheated in about 3 shots and powered down.

I did the only merciful thing I could, which was to put him out of his misery.

I feel terrible that there are people out there playing that aren't aware of this issue. You simply can't chain fire two or more AC2's. if you do, you will die. It's that simple and needs to be fixed ASAP.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Arcturious, on 14 August 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I feel terrible that there are people out there playing that aren't aware of this issue. You simply can't chain fire two or more AC2's. if you do, you will die. It's that simple and needs to be fixed ASAP.

I agree...even if 4 is the limit for AC2 alphas, firing less than 4 in any fashion should not trigger the heat penalty. There isn't even an official post anywhere discussing 4 AC2s as an alpha limit...are we supposed to be beta testing and providing input on unknown mechanics, or are we playing the final product without a rule book?

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Trev Firestorm, on 14 August 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Another update

Spoiler

Reppu (MechWarrior® Online™)
Aug 14 13:40 (PDT)
Hello Trev Firestorm,
Further review has further clarified how this is as intended.
First, there is a Max Alpha value for AC/2s: that's 4. (It's not in Paul's post on the Command Chair yet so I wasn't certain on that)
What's happening with the firing method is that it's keeping so many shots under the timer for Max Alpha that it never gets a chance to reset, resulting in some ridiculous heat generation.
See the "table" below - note I have NO idea what's going to happen to the alignment of this thing after I send it, however it should be 3 columns: Shots Group 1 Group 2
Shot # is under Shots
Then Group 1 has the first timer, Group 2 has the second one, then you just keep alternating.
Shots Group 1 Group 2
Shot 1 0.52
Shot 2 _______0.75
Shot 3 1.04
Shot 4 _______1.27 Heat penalty starts here and stacks as the penalty is applied for each additional shot over the limit.
Shot 5 1.56
Shot 6 ________1.79
Shot 7 2.08
Shot 8 ________2.31
Shot 9 2.6
Shot 10 _______2.83
Let me know how the formatting looks on your end, I'm curious as to how our ticketing system handles that.
Thanks!

Regards,
Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

The email version messed the formatting up, working on fixing it for the post.

Taking a second look at this, there are still no more than 4 shots in a 1-second window of time here, and since AC2s have a 0.5 second cooldown, you would think with a max alpha of 4 AC2s that 8 shots would be allowed in a 1-second window, or 1.04 seconds if they have a 2/100ths delay as a built in safety margin between shots, so whatever timer trigger they are using is not recognizing what should be allowed per the alpha limit mentioned. Seems like basic math to me...

[ackstorm]

The AC/2 is already largely useless except for psychological impact, this is just putting the nail in the coffin. Even with 3 of these things it takes so many heatsinks to keep firing that you can't carry any additional weaponry that if you had AC5's or UAC5's.

I've been trying to use the AC2 as often as possible in different combinations just to find some vantage point but the heat to damage ratio is so bad that I can't keep up with my opponents, Even if they are blasting PPCs at me!

Most irritating of all, they are making 'stealth' changes and not telling us about it. Since when did the AC2 become an OP weapon? I don't recall seeing anything about that on the forums, and taking on a 4 AC2 boat, even when staggered, is not hard to do. Just beat with the laughable damage until they shutdown from heat and point them back.

[Stomp]

Koniving, on 09 August 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

It's a possibility, Lord Perversor. It can apply to some things, but this is a consistent and easily recreated issue that runs off server (testing grounds), on public testing servers, and on live matches.

Also, while not an official response (it's not like someone did a command chair post about it) it was said that this is intentional. They said it's bugged, too, as the 'penalty is too high'. I asked for clarification, saying it isn't happening when I fire them at the same time but when I stagger and spread them out to fire at separate times. "Intentional."

My best guess is like the heat capacity system, we must alpha strike or nothing. Heat neutral builds with great sacrifices of firepower in favor of high endurance is punished and scorned. Damage over time weapons get the shaft. Medium lasers get +1 to their heat, making 2 of them generate identical heat to 1 PPC before this patch (with identical firing rates, too).

So rather than spreading our damage for the psychological 'fear' factor, it's better for us to deal 174 damage of concentrated pinpoint fire in 15 seconds rather than let us spread it out for 88 damage in the same time with the awesome and terrifying sounding blitzfire.

Needless to say I am not happy.

Where exactly was it said? I'm not saying it wasn't... but I'd LOVE to see a dev ready to put his foot in his mouth like that. Anybody fancy a link?

[Koniving]

Stomp, on 15 August 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Where exactly was it said? I'm not saying it wasn't... but I'd LOVE to see a dev ready to put his foot in his mouth like that. Anybody fancy a link?

Support. O.o; Email them with your own video demonstrating it.

Keep your eyes out it's supposed to be addressed in a patch or two.

Btw: Did you know that flamers had a penalty system before any other weapon? Even with 48 SHS (24 true DHS), a single flamer doing 1 heat per second will eventually bring you up to shutdown.
Where a single AC/2 with a lot fewer heatsinks will never heat you up despite how it does 1 heat per shot, 2 heat per second?

Thought that was interesting.

Note that 48 SHS or 24 true DHS is 4.8 cooling/second.

1 heat per second - 4.8 heat per second = -3.8 heat/sec, which means you should never overheat.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

I haven't seen one, just the 2nd hand stuff coming from support when people have submitted a ticket.