49 replies to this topic

[Dracol]

The PPC/Gauss combo seems to be the last OP, go to set-up people feel needs tackling. Got an idea watching a show about snipers.

What if Gauss bullets included the inertia from a moving mech?

If your fire the combo while stationary, you'd see no difference than what we have now. Only while on the move would this take effect...

Shooters from a helicopter have to "reverse lead" a target (ie. aim before the target) to account for the momentum the bullet receives from the firing platform. Since PPCs are an energy effect they would not be subject to this.

So what would happen, if the combo is fired while on the move, and you are lined up dead center on a target, your PPCs will hit the target while your gauss shot will go past in the direction you are moving.

This would be a direct nerf to Gauss since it would apply to it even when equipped alone or with other weapons. It would add an extra level of skill to the weapon without adding a random cone of fire effect. The placement of the gauss rifle shot while moving will be always the same dependent on the speed you are traveling.

It could also be applied to all ballistic weapons, but imho only the gauss would really need it for balancing.

[Sprouticus]

The additional speed would be negligible. A mech going 100kph would add 10% to the speed. Which over the distances we are talking in almost nothing.

[Magicbullet141]

Thats a terrible funking idea. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Gauss. It does exactly what it should be doing (Glass Cannon). PPCs are the root of the problem. They run too cool.

[Dracol]

Sprouticus, on 08 August 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

The additional speed would be negligible. A mech going 100kph would add 10% to the speed. Which over the distances we are talking in almost nothing.

Even with the small varience as you claim, the 35pt pin point issue would be addressed. Unless aimed dead center of an atlas, the ppc shots and Gauss shots would land on differant parts of the mech.

Magicbullet141, on 08 August 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Thats a terrible funking idea. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Gauss. It does exactly what it should be doing (Glass Cannon). PPCs are the root of the problem. They run too cool.

The multi ppc boats were caused by the low heat and addressed with ghost heat. Now adays its the Gauss/ppc combo with its 35pt pin point alpha that has been thrown around as the op combo. Adjusting heat of the ppc will not affect this combo at all IMHO.

[Dimento Graven]

You want to balance PPC/Gauss combos? Or any weapon combination combo?

Add a heat affects table to MWO. Original TT had one, and though I am loath to mention it so did a few other iterations of PC based BT/MW games.

Right now the heat affects table is as follows:
0-99% of maximum heat - No affect.
100% of maximum heat - Shut down
+100% of maximum heat - internal damage.

So there's this HUUUUUUGE gap between 0-99% where there's no adverse affects for ALWAYS running to hot.

If:
At 20% heat you lose 10% kph
At 35% you lose 10% more kph AND your targeting reticule started to jitter
At 55% you lost 10% more kph, targeting reticule jittered more, AND some weapons just failed to fire
At 75% you lost 10% more kph, targeting reticule jittered like crazy, the HUD fades in and out, AND some weapons randomly failed to fire

Well then, obviously people would play a little bit less, "FIRE ALL MUH GUNS AT SAME TIME ALL THE TIME!!!"

The nice thing is, you could alpha as we currently do the first time, then if you wanted the same pinpoint accuracy and movement, you'd only have to wait, A LITTLE LONGER (as opposed to being able to fire immediately again as soon as the weapons refreshed) for your 'mech to cool to below 20% of heat. If you chose to alpha again while overly warm, well, you'd lose pinpoint accuracy, perhaps not all your weapons would fire, and of course you'd be moving slowly...

Trying to attack the symptoms that show up with boating, or high alpha builds doesn't actually attack the problem, and that's the lack of a comprehensive heat affects table, because dual gauss/PPC builds will just slide over to "1 gauss, 1 ERPPC, 1 ERLaser" builds, or some other combination that's still got a fairly painful punch, and they'll be firing them as fast as they possibly can.

The risk shouldn't be that "oh it's not going to do advertised damage", the risk should be, "If I continue doing this, it affects my 'mech in these ways".

THAT's what you do, not boating heat penalties (stupid), not damage point penalties (also not completely thought out in my opinion), not lowering the damage on all weapons because there's an imagined 'over abundance of damage', or whatever...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 08 August 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Actually there is always one thing that is best. And players will whine how OP it is. That's all that is happening here. Get rid of one and another will appear. You have to look at the bigger picture of the game and realize that the nerfs have gone way too far. MWO is so nerfed-up with this and that I have a hard time mustering the interest to log-on.

I don't see anything wrong with 2 PPCs and a Gauss. If they break them down with heatscaling players will just stagger the firing of them and others will say it's OP. If they nerf the Gauss completely players will just switch to AC20s and others will say it's OP.

The real reason Mechs just get cored in MWO is the 2xRecharge. 2-4 seconds recharge just forces pilots to go face to face or retreat. Retreating is usually very bad, so MWO gameplay is mechs face-off to see which mech can core the other one first. Gauss and PPCs work well, but are not the cause or the cure.

In previous MechWarrior games the recharge for large weapons was 6-8 seconds depending on Range. Pilots would countdown the recharge on their opponent's weaponry and turn away at recharge to try to take the hit on an arm or side torso and 50-60% of the time were successful. This caused the damage to spread across the mech and pilot's could turn their best armoring toward their opponent, saving their Mech's from rapidly being cored.

Rather than continuing to nerf-up MWO they need to make the mechs tough enough to handle the 2xRecharge which PGI obviously wants. Coring is from 2xRecharge, not any weapon in particular. Not from any group-fired weapons either.

PGI needs to start making MWO more like MechWarrior and Battletech and stop adding nerf after nerf. MechWarrior works well, MWO's mechs are just too weak for the gameplay dynamics they have set in motion.

[Purlana]

Make the heat penalty apply to PPCs when you group 2PPC + 1 GR. Maybe it should generate the same amount as 2 AC/20s.

[Dracol]

Graven, the solution you propose would push the Meta towards snipers even more. Brawlers, which rely on extended engagements would not have time to cool. Meanwhile, snipers would just wait a little bit longer before poking out and doing their 35pt pin point alpha.

[Dracol]

Lightfoot, on 08 August 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Actually there is always one thing that is best. And players will whine how OP it is. That's all that is happening here. Get rid of one and another will appear. You have to look at the bigger picture of the game and realize that the nerfs have gone way too far. MWO is so nerfed-up with this and that I have a hard time mustering the interest to log-on.

I don't see anything wrong with 2 PPCs and a Gauss. If they break them down with heatscaling players will just stagger the firing of them and others will say it's OP. If they nerf the Gauss completely players will just switch to AC20s and others will say it's OP.

The real reason Mechs just get cored in MWO is the 2xRecharge. 2-4 seconds recharge just forces pilots to go face to face or retreat. Retreating is usually very bad, so MWO gameplay is mechs face-off to see which mech can core the other one first. Gauss and PPCs work well, but are not the cause or the cure.

In previous MechWarrior games the recharge for large weapons was 6-8 seconds depending on Range. Pilots would countdown the recharge on their opponent's weaponry and turn away at recharge to try to take the hit on an arm or side torso and 50-60% of the time were successful. This caused the damage to spread across the mech and pilot's could turn their best armoring toward their opponent, saving their Mech's from rapidly being cored.

Rather than continuing to nerf-up MWO they need to make the mechs tough enough to handle the 2xRecharge which PGI obviously wants. Coring is from 2xRecharge, not any weapon in particular. Not from any group-fired weapons either.

PGI needs to start making MWO more like MechWarrior and Battletech and stop adding nerf after nerf. MechWarrior works well, MWO's mechs are just too weak for the gameplay dynamics they have set in motion.

The counter to what you propose happens even now. You wait for them to turn back before firing.... why waste your shot when you know its going to hit an unimportant area?

[VanillaG]

Magicbullet141, on 08 August 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Thats a terrible funking idea. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Gauss. It does exactly what it should be doing (Glass Cannon). PPCs are the root of the problem. They run too cool.

The problem with the PPCs are that they are projectiles. They give pinpoint damage with unlimited ammo. Turn PPCs into a beam and you solve the problem.

Edited by VanillaG, 08 August 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[Further]

VanillaG, on 08 August 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

The problem with the PPCs are that they are projectiles. They give pinpoint damage with unlimited ammo. Turn PPCs into a beam and you solve the problem.

I think youre gettign way too deep into it. ER lazers are what you just described.

Anyhow, the fact that PPCs are hit or miss alone is a huge drawback, with a lazer you can draw a bead and focus crit components, its why the LL stalker was always superior to the PPC before heat scaling. (I know not many used it but you could rock a standard).

The tradeoff for PPCs should always be heat. Honestly I wish PGI would revert heat scale and just balance PPC heat. You even remember PPCs before the huge heat buff? They were well balanced. The problem is PGI will almost NEVER revert a change, even if a future change alters the balance. It really grindes my F'n gears.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Dracol, on 08 August 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

What if Gauss bullets included the inertia from a moving mech?
....
It could also be applied to all ballistic weapons, but imho only the gauss would really need it for balancing.

Yeah, right. You proposing to nerf already crappy ballistic weapons even further.

[CutterWolf]

Really? Your worryed about a 35 point alpha strike? Your kidding right? You do understand that the Gauss Rifle round has a slower travel speed than the PPC right? So guess what that means? No 35 "pin point" alpha stirke on a moving target. I can put a 50 point pin point alpha strike down using other weapons combos are you now going to try to get that combo nerf too?

You know what the real issue is with MWO's pin point alpha's? Its the fact that there is no hardpoint restictions which is letting mechs mount weapon systems that they should not be able to carry in the first place. Fix that core issue that the game balances its self..............

[Dracol]

Further, on 08 August 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

I think youre gettign way too deep into it. ER lazers are what you just described.

Anyhow, the fact that PPCs are hit or miss alone is a huge drawback, with a lazer you can draw a bead and focus crit components, its why the LL stalker was always superior to the PPC before heat scaling. (I know not many used it but you could rock a standard).

The tradeoff for PPCs should always be heat. Honestly I wish PGI would revert heat scale and just balance PPC heat. You even remember PPCs before the huge heat buff? They were well balanced. The problem is PGI will almost NEVER revert a change, even if a future change alters the balance. It really grindes my F'n gears.

You mean back before Hsr were half the shots you hit didn't actually hit? Back when you had to guess lead for lag?

[Dracol]

CutterWolf, on 08 August 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Really? Your worryed about a 35 point alpha strike? Your kidding right? You do understand that the Gauss Rifle round has a slower travel speed than the PPC right? So guess what that means? No 35 "pin point" alpha stirke on a moving target. I can put a 50 point pin point alpha strike down using other weapons combos are you now going to try to get that combo nerf too?

You know what the real issue is with MWO's pin point alpha's? Its the fact that there is no hardpoint restictions which is letting mechs mount weapon systems that they should not be able to carry in the first place. Fix that core issue that the game balances its self..............

If you read into what players in the 8man drops complained about its seeing only ppc/Gauss combo. The people from clans who compete in the unofficial tournaments and take the game a little more seriously then then the average player. Not saying i agree or disagree with the issue. Just putting out an idea that could address it.

[Further]

CutterWolf, on 08 August 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Really? Your worryed about a 35 point alpha strike? Your kidding right? You do understand that the Gauss Rifle round has a slower travel speed than the PPC right? So guess what that means? No 35 "pin point" alpha stirke on a moving target. I can put a 50 point pin point alpha strike down using other weapons combos are you now going to try to get that combo nerf too?

You know what the real issue is with MWO's pin point alpha's? Its the fact that there is no hardpoint restictions which is letting mechs mount weapon systems that they should not be able to carry in the first place. Fix that core issue that the game balances its self..............

Agree, Id like to see HP restirctions and a revert from Heat Scale. Its a much more simple solution. I used to run a QD with 4 PPC. Some things shouldent happen.

[VanillaG]

Further, on 08 August 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

I think youre gettign way too deep into it. ER lazers are what you just described.

Anyhow, the fact that PPCs are hit or miss alone is a huge drawback, with a lazer you can draw a bead and focus crit components, its why the LL stalker was always superior to the PPC before heat scaling. (I know not many used it but you could rock a standard).

The tradeoff for PPCs should always be heat. Honestly I wish PGI would revert heat scale and just balance PPC heat. You even remember PPCs before the huge heat buff? They were well balanced. The problem is PGI will almost NEVER revert a change, even if a future change alters the balance. It really grindes my F'n gears.

No, ER lasers are just longer range versions of the laser, they do the same damage as the regular version. PPC are really the equivalent of "XL Lasers". They do the most damage, over the greatest distance, for the most heat of any energy weapon. They are normalized against other laser for the stats.

If you put the PPC in line with other ballistics, it is smaller and lighter than an AC/5, does the same damage as an AC/10 at almost twice the velocity. It has the highest heat of any ballistic but it also doesn't use any ammo nor does it have a chance of having a critical explosion.

Nobody complains about energy weapons being overpowered because they have a beam duration that allows the target to spread the damage. Leave ballistics as the pinpoint damage dealers because they have the drawback of size, weight, ammo limits, and the chance of critical explosion for either the weapon (gauss) or ammo(all ac ammo).

[CutterWolf]

Dracol, on 08 August 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

If you read into what players in the 8man drops complained about its seeing only ppc/Gauss combo. The people from clans who compete in the unofficial tournaments and take the game a little more seriously then then the average player. Not saying i agree or disagree with the issue. Just putting out an idea that could address it.

Ah, that makes more since to me now about what your talking about but, being one of those players that does play in those unofficial tournaments and takes the game seriously, I don't complain about that combo because I understand why its being used and why its a good config to use. Tournament players will always "min/max" their configs since they need the most effective config possible to insure a win. Its just the fact of the game but, that does not change the fact that "if" restricted hardpoints were in the game or added to the game we would not even be having this conversion. Also, sorry for the misunderstanding what your OP was about.

Edited by CutterWolf, 08 August 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[QuackAttack]

I'd also like to see repair costs come into the equation for weapon selection. lets say a destroyed weapon costs 10% of its cost to repair. MLs would be 8k, a pittance really but that big GR 60K Cbills! Same with the ERPPC. Sure if you lose one you'll probably still come out ahead if you win the match, but 3 of those systems and you will be thinking about a different load out.

Perhaps a bonus on the Awesome makes the repairs a bit cheaper for flavor on the stock model, or possibly being able to receive functioning components as rewards as well. Still gives you the choice to boat one hell of an alpha but you might not be able to keep it going match after match.

[Dracol]

CutterWolf, on 08 August 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Ah, that makes more since to me now about what your talking about but, being one of those players that does play in those unofficial tournaments and takes the game seriously, I don't complain about that combo because I understand why its being used and why its a good config to use. Tournament players will always "min/max" their configs since they need the most effective config possible to insure a win. Its just the fact of the game but, that does not change the fact that "if" restricted hardpoints were in the game or added to the game we would not even be having this conversion. Also, sorry for the misunderstanding what your OP was about.

No worries. Personally I'm against more limited hardpoints. IMHO, I feel PGI struck a nice balance between MW:2's free for all and MW:4's limits restricting certain chassis to the optimal builds.

QuackAttack, on 08 August 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

I'd also like to see repair costs come into the equation for weapon selection. lets say a destroyed weapon costs 10% of its cost to repair. MLs would be 8k, a pittance really but that big GR 60K Cbills! Same with the ERPPC. Sure if you lose one you'll probably still come out ahead if you win the match, but 3 of those systems and you will be thinking about a different load out.

Perhaps a bonus on the Awesome makes the repairs a bit cheaper for flavor on the stock model, or possibly being able to receive functioning components as rewards as well. Still gives you the choice to boat one hell of an alpha but you might not be able to keep it going match after match.

First time I've seen someone propose r&r on weapons only. At first glance doesn't seem like a bad idea. The old r&r suffered cause of repairing xl engines as well as mechs going in with partially repaired armor. Prices could be adjusted so even on a loss, you'd be able to cover costs...