34 replies to this topic

[Ghost]

Came across an interesting little article on The Trenches today.

"Years ago I was working contract QA for a large corporation with a number of subsidiary development studios. I was a part of the build verification and performance testing team, and needless to say our job was fairly easy; check the newest and freshest build from the developer and create save points along the way, all the while logging performance issues and ad-hocing the **** out of the game.

Since the job came with a fair amount of “down time,” we were frequently asked to perform random jobs. “Play through the game for screen caps,” “provide saves for this team or that team,” “create unique scenarios for another team for marketing…” Fun stuff.
Then one day we were given another task… one unique to itself and all-together scary (for someone relatively new to the industry at the time). Three others and I were put into a shuttle and driven to an offsite building on another part of town. Once there we realized that we were standing in the shell of what was once a bustling and active studio, decorated with all things attractive and unique to a game studio. Arcade machines still plugged in, giant flat screens, whiteboards covered in gaming jargon and designer notes…and of course the free drinks fridge.
What was missing were the people. Not a single person was there. Controllers lay on the ground, placed there in haste as though the person handling it was forcibly removed from the office. Desks were scattered with random notes and pieces of technology, ideas still scribbled down on so many sticky notes as though they were going to be picked up later for a stand-up meeting to be relayed to some other “team.”
Well…no team existed anymore. This place was shut down and void of life. I knew that we were there to “save the valuables”... dev kits, monitors, controllers…it all had to go. What was once a hub of ideas was now a scrap yard of product to be recycled and re-used. I thought long and hard after cleaning up that mess of a studio… Was I making the right choice working for a small hourly wage while performing a task that most other industry folk look down upon knowing that maybe, I could end up like this place in the bat of an eye?
My answer: absolutely 100% you bet your ******* *** yes… this place may have now been deserted, but when it was moving full steam I have no doubt that it was a blast to work in and bustled with creativity and growth. The game industry will always have failed studios and horror stories about publishers shutting down projects. From every one of these comes a new batch of talent, ready to re-enter the workforce or forge ahead with their own team as independent studios. It’s been 4 years since I helped pick up the dead pieces of this studio, but I never forgot about it.
Rest in peace, FASA."

[Threat Doc]

I understand wanting to go out on top, but I think that day was a massive fail for the various communities, in general, flowing from FASAs hands: BattleTech, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, and others. I think there should have been some warning, and I wonder now about Smith and Tinker, whether Jordan will walk out on them, as well, when he feels it's advantageous to leave. I did an interview in the 4th, and final, issue for Volume I of my Argent Fire e-Zine back in the day, and he is a wholly approachable personality, someone with obvious skill and brains, and a sure vision. However, when you just get up and walk out like that, "Okay, everyone go home", it tells me his brilliance is rounded by flightiness, and I marvel if he even wonders what could have been had FASA kept moving along.

One of the articles I read in either 'Mech Magazine in the '80s and early '90s, or Battletechnology for, roughly, the same time period, had Mr. Weisman expressing that he felt the internet was just a fad, that it would go the way of the Dodo soon enough, and then the PnP world would be secure. I understand he embraced it a bit late, but I think it would not have been too late for FASA to get back on its feet, dive into another realm in which the importance of the information being produced for their three primary game lines was even moreso than any of them could have imagined. I believe, had the original FASA staff, coupled with some new tech hands, stayed at their posts when the other trainees ran, they could have been an even larger force to be reckoned with than they were in the '80s.

RIP FASA.

EDIT: I love two of the three game lines I mentioned, above, and I've tried continuing to play each of the three at various times through the years, and I don't blame the companies that now have them, in fact I applaud them for trying to perform such daunting feats as continuing these game lines, but the magic is just not there, anymore. I played Earthdawn for three months in 2007, and I've attempted to get two games going since then, and I've not played an actual game of tabletop shoot-em-up BattleTech since 1999 -maybe my sons and I will actually play this coming weekend-, and I've been asked to pick up the role of Shadowrun GM three times, the last work I did for that game being in 1998. It's simply not the same.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 10 November 2011 - 07:47 AM.

[Cake Bandit]

[taxman]

Cake Bandit, on 10 November 2011 - 08:02 AM, said:

Awesome

[Spice]

You know... as an FYI there are a number of BT, Renegade Legion, and Shadowrun
authors and designers prowling about these boards. There are also a number
of VWE/FIT/Dayone people as well. It's really just an evolution.

Not moving on, but evolving, armed with years of decent memories and experiences.
Cermak, Greektown, North Pier, all had their own magic. True.
BUT, where there was an office and a creative mind, the magic came forth.
It's not gone, and heck this place has a part of it,
it was in the people, not just the place and whatever letters were on the office logo.

Anyhoo, these guys are on the right track. Get the product out there.
Bring the worlds back to life. Without something, then it is only memories.

[Meth0s]

Kay Wolf, on 10 November 2011 - 07:42 AM, said:

... and I wonder now about Smith and Tinker, whether Jordan will walk out on them, as well, when he feels it's advantageous to leave.

He basically already has. He has already stepped down as CEO, because Smith & Tinker was leaking money after the market failure of their major project. He's stayed on in an advisory or board role. If somebody has further details, please contribute.

I was at the GenCon when Dark Age was announced. They took out the new figures, and started to show them. As you can imagine, a lot of people had some doubts and frustration about the direction the minatures were going. Jordan was clear in his message. It was this or it was dead completely. They felt that they had to go in a new direction that would allow newer players to enter the BattleTech world. The older players just were not purchasing enough of the new products, and the influx of new players was slow. They were losing money. So it is understandable that FASA shut down.

I am okay with the direction that BattleTech has gone since, but I'm also glad that the CBT timeline continued through Catalyst Labs.

Regarding your Internet comment, I'd welcome Catalyst Labs to do what Wizards did with Magic, make an official online version, with tradeable mechs (i.e. cards).

Edited by MethosFurey, 10 November 2011 - 11:08 AM.

[Threat Doc]

MethosFurey, on 10 November 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

He basically already has. He has already stepped down as CEO, because Smith & Tinker was leaking money after the market failure of their major project. He's stayed on in an advisory or board role. If somebody has further details, please contribute.

Yes, I would certainly like to hear more. In 2007, when SnT first came out, everyone thought BattleTech was saved, and the articles that I read, I believe one was from Gamasutra, Weisman was called a serial entrepreneur. This is a man I used to have so much respect for, but now the only thing I can think of for him is a serial quitter. I don't mean to sound so harsh, and I've quit a few things, as well, but what he's doing is only wise from a money point of view. I feel sorry for him. Maybe he'll come full circle and return to, and stick with, his first gaming love.

Quote

Regarding your Internet comment, I'd welcome Catalyst Labs to do what Wizards did with Magic, make an official online version, with tradeable mechs (i.e. cards).

Hmmm, that could be a good idea. I loved the BattleTech CCG, and I played the Dark Age game a few times -honestly, the only reason I hate it is because of what was done to the era I grew up with- and I think I would love to play a persistent version of the BattleTech board game, coupled with the universe, as long as it starts in the original past (say the Usurper War), and works up from there.

[uumd]

I can't express how much pure joy the Battletech universe has given me.

I never played the board game, but I have my 2nd edition box set, and my Citytech set,
and my Solaris box,quite a few miniatures (although I'm not much of a painter), all the TRO's,
most of the historicals, all of the novels, and all the video games.

I never played the card game, but I have a complete collection of that as well. Something
about the shiny cards with the cool mech art had me hooked.

I did play Dark Age, but mostly as an excuse to justify my insane purchasing of the plastic crack,
as it was refered to. I came up maybe 5 pc's short of a complete collection. I did like the game,
lost more than I won, but was sad when it came to an end. Lost the heart to complete my collection.

I look forward to what the future brings.

No other universe appeals to me as much as Battletech/Mechwarrior,
I applaud all those that had a hand in it and wish them good fortune.

But mostly wish for a new card game (it's easier to store

[anonymous218]

Thanks for the article, share, OP. It hit me hard that I could never work for FASA when I grew up. Just sad.

[Paladin1]

I may **** some people off by saying this, but frankly I'm glad that Weisman is gone and I hope he doesn't ever get a chance to come back again. I hate that FASA had to shut it's doors and I really hated the unknown future that we were faced with for so many years after that event, but every bit of the problems that occurred with FASA can be traced directly back to Weisman's inability to see anything all the way through once he started.

Simply put, Jordan Weisman is a quitter who has never fully finished a project, ever. Look at his track record and show me where he ever saw a project through all the way from start to finish. He's got plenty of ideas and starts plenty of projects, but he never finishes any of them. Want proof? Look no further than how slipshod the Battletech line quality was when FASA was in charge, and I don't mean minor nit picks like spelling, I mean how many books were missing major portions of the story because an editor couldn't do their job fully, for whatever reason? Now, you might ask how this is Weisman's fault? Simply put, he began a game universe (Battletech) without taking the time to make certain that the support staff that he was going to need, including editors and so forth, were up to the task of performing their work. This was systematic for FASA but it only got worse with time due to FASA's inability to pay it's bills on time. Ever wonder why a large number of writers who worked for FASA previously refuse to come to work for Catalyst Game Labs now? They got burnt and now they're hesitant, right or wrong, about working for CGL because they remember how FASA treated them.

Now, compare Weisman to the current group of line developers with Catalyst Game Labs. Not only are projects being completed on schedule, but they're churning out a massive amount of products as well and everything that they say they're going to do gets done. Granted, there are problems within CGL as well, but nothing like within FASA when Weisman was there.

So yeah, while I harbor no ill will towards the average staff from the FASA days, the same can't be said for Weisman. His character failings have earned him my scorn and earned it in spades. I hope he never regains control of the IP, because we've done just fine without him to this point.

[Threat Doc]

Paladin1, on 12 November 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

I may **** some people off by saying this...

Not really ******* me off so much as going too far, really, with the criticism. My criticism was about FASA closing its doors because of the loves I had there; after all, I have never played as many games from ANY other company, not even the varied titles for Palladium, as I did from FASA. My criticism was because I loved what FASA was doing and, after FASA, EVERYTHING got screwed up.

Quote

Look at his track record and show me where he ever saw a project through all the way from start to finish.

Ummm, that's easy: BattleTech (1st Edition BattleDroids, 2nd Edition, MechWarrior and all the books, sources, novels, etc., each project its own headache, Earthdawn (et. al.), Shadowrun (et. al.), and Renegade Legion (et. al.). There is no denying that Mr. Weisman skipped out at what he called the height of FASAs power curve, but he is directly responsible for several fantastic game lines, for directing those who built them, if nothing else, he's responsible for hundreds of books to go with each of those game lines, even though he NEVER had to approve anything beyond the basics. We didn't have to have 22 years worth of hard-produced books, miniatures, map boards, supplements, clubs, and an additional 10 years worth of PC and Console video games he directed the completion of, and we don't have to have MechWarrior Online. But, we have them, and it's because he DID NOT quit on the individual game lines, even if he quit on FASA, Studio 42, Smith and Tinker, etc. The man has his proper business mind, and he's doing what he feels is best for the survival of himself and the ventures he started as a much younger man.

All of that being said -and I stress that neither he, nor his co-Captain Ross Babcock III, nor his company, FASA, were required to produce jack diddly squat beyond the basic games- he should be ashamed of himself for quitting on FASA in the first place, to selling out to Micro$oft and WizKids, and Topps, etc., etc., because every one of the game systems -and I apologize to those who've worked on any of the aforementioned game systems, but what I'm saying is the absolute truth- have lost their magic. I've said this before, but I've been hard-pressed to play any of these games, despite continuing to purchase some things as I have, since FASA closed her doors in 2001. Does Weisman owe ANYONE on these forums, or in any of the communities for the games mentioned above, anything? No. However, his name has a black mark across each of these game universes in all of their varied platforms, and that's a crying shame for him, and for us.

Quote

Look no further than how slipshod the Battletech line quality was when FASA was in charge, and I don't mean minor nit picks like spelling, I mean how many books were missing major portions of the story because an editor couldn't do their job fully, for whatever reason?

A lot of that had to do with how new the role-playing and tactical gaming were, at the time. At that time, you could pick up any magazine you wanted, and the quality of those publications was no better than anything FASA put out. FASA had no example, no format, to build from other than the publications around it. Dungeons & Dragons, AD&D, and any other game produced around that time was equally crappy. Look at Albedo Anthropomorphics, Cyberpunk (the original, not 2020), GURPS, any Palladium book, and other originals; it wasn't until Living Steel came out in '89 that a different format for gaming began to be experimented with.

Quote

Now, you might ask how this is Weisman's fault? Simply put, he began a game universe (Battletech) without taking the time to make certain that the support staff that he was going to need, including editors and so forth, were up to the task of performing their work. This was systematic for FASA but it only got worse with time due to FASA's inability to pay it's bills on time. Ever wonder why a large number of writers who worked for FASA previously refuse to come to work for Catalyst Game Labs now? They got burnt and now they're hesitant, right or wrong, about working for CGL because they remember how FASA treated them.

I don't know all of the aspects about FASA paying its bills or not, or about the ambivalence of old FASA writers, artists, and support staff to go to CBT.com, CGL, Microsoft, etc., and I would be willing to bet you don't know, either, you're just blowing off steam, which is understandable, and though I agree that Weisman is to blame for many things, he is NOT to blame for everything. Payments to artists and writers still had to go through the CPL(s) they had at the time, because of their bank(s), etc., and as a young entrepreneur, there is not one single person able to account for everything. If you were to start a gaming business tomorrow and you didn't already have a handful of capitol to produce your first-year's worth of books, mini's, etc., and keep your office staff employed for the next five years, you would be upside down on the publication of your very first book, and would not be able to recover any better. Run a business first, you might find it's very difficult to do so.

Quote

Now, compare Weisman to the current group of line developers with Catalyst Game Labs. Not only are projects being completed on schedule, but they're churning out a massive amount of products as well and everything that they say they're going to do gets done. Granted, there are problems within CGL as well, but nothing like within FASA when Weisman was there.

Without FASA paying EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE FOLKS to begin with, CGL would NEVER have existed, period. Was FASA run well, no. CGL runs itself on a work ethic that actually places gaming on a serious industrial level for them, and they are required, all the time, to be above the standard FASA set, and they know what happens, because it's been done to them, when they don't get paid on time, if at all. I know for a fact Stackpole forgave a LOT of money FASA, Jordan Weisman, etc., owed him, and he loves the games originally produced by FASA, which are now taken care of by a few different companies. These other companies take better care of the games, but the games themselves no longer have that magic.

Quote

So yeah, while I harbor no ill will towards the average staff from the FASA days, the same can't be said for Weisman. His character failings have earned him my scorn and earned it in spades. I hope he never regains control of the IP, because we've done just fine without him to this point.

See this is hard for me to either agree or disagree with. There were visions for the various games FASA produced, and they were all excellent game systems. Just like MWO should be based on BattleTech as it's been built up over the years, so too are any game lines produced from the original FASA games; if, somehow, these other IP owners would be able to get the magic back into the games, and I had money to do it, I would support every single one of these game lines from the bottom up all over again.

Am I angry with Jordan Weisman? Yes. Am I willing to give him another chance with each of these game lines? Yes. All he needs to do is go back to court, show his name on the original incorporation of FASA, his name on BattleDroids and BattleTech from before Micro$oft and Apple were serious industrial contenders, and IBM was still producing typewriters, and he could TAKE back every single IP ever produced by FASA. Micro$oft, WizKids, Topps, are all temporary, because IPs can never really be completely sold, the Intellectual Property forever remaining in the hands, no matter how much money changes hands, of the individual(s) creator(s) of it. Will Weisman, or Babcock, or Prosperi, or Lucas, or Lewis, or anyone else from FASA days do that? No, not likely. Even they recognize that these are beloved properties and, as creative folk, want to see it proliferated, especially since they can still take in decent amounts of money all the time for doing nothing but being the original name on the document.

[Paladin1]

I don't think I went too far in my criticism but I do think you missed the point of my disgust. FASA would never have had to close it's doors if Weisman could have just finished what he started and not abandoned the company. My whole point about Weisman quitting on everything he's ever done was to support the idea that, while he begins a large amount of projects, he never sticks with any of them. The fact that he left FASA tells you that he can't be counted on to finish a project. FASA was the grand, overarching project that made all the other projects work and he left the company in the lurch. That's what I was trying to point out and I think, from your post, that you instinctively knew that something was wrong, due to the way he left FASA, but maybe not the full extent of the details to what I know about.

Now, I'm not saying that I have "insider" knowledge about what happened at FASA, because I don't. What I do have, however, is knowledge which has come about by asking the right people the right questions over time. While I can't claim to have first hand knowledge about what happened, the people who let me in on what was happening did have that knowledge. You just have to ask the right person to find out.

One other point, while I know you think I was blowing off steam, and to a certain extent I was, it's unwise to assume that I don't have more knowledge than the average gamer simply because of how long I've been involved in the game and have been friends with those who worked for FASA, FanPro and later CGL. It's actually kind of interesting to realize how much information is actually available to those who are just a fly on the wall, so to speak. That knowledge is what led me to say that FASA had a problem paying it's bills.

Finally, I realize that most people in this hobby are not what you'd consider business-minded, but that's not true for all of us. I, personally, own my own business and I know of several others which do as well. My own business is not related to the gaming industry, but being in a highly competitive technical field (Telecom Engineering), I know quite well about the hardships of small business owners. Again, I'm not knocking you for assuming that I don't know anything about business, as that would be a fairly safe assumption with anyone else, but I'm also not what you'd call average.

Anyway, with all that said, I want to go back to a point you made earlier. You said that the games have lost their magic for you. I struggle with this same disillusionment myself, which explains why I tend to stay in the 3rd Succession War period, but several of the new products which CGL has produced to fill out the early years of the Battletech universe have helped dispel some of that jaded outlook. The Reunification War and Age of War sourcebooks are an absolute breath of fresh air when compared to the Jihad timeline. If you haven't gotten them yet, do so. They're worth the money. The 3075TRO is worth a look as well, due to the older designs included in it, not the least of which is the Hammerhands.

[Threat Doc]

Okay, fair enough. I apologize for my presumptions. I am not a business owner, though I am business minded, and I'm certain you were able to glean from my previous post that I do have some small knowledge about these things; therefore, I do tend to think others who do not express themselves well enough will also have a lack of understanding. Thank you for clarifying your position.

Now, onto the new products from CGL. If, somehow, I could manage to find a job that would not lay me off before a few months was out, could get caught up on my bills and my life, I would begin purchasing more books from CGL, so I could support my favorite hobby. Same thing especially with RedBrick. I'm not so much into Shadowrun or Renegade Legion as I am Earthdawn, and I've never been able to play in a well-run MechWarrior RP (CBTRPG being only the latest I've tried) game.

[Paladin1]

No need to apologize, but thank you all the same. On the job front, trust me I know what you're going through. I'm lucky in that I'm working on a project for a local Telecom that's not due to expire until late next year but the industry has been hit extremely hard by the threat of Obama's healthcare bill. We can't afford to pay the same rates as we're paying now with the added requirements outlined in the healthcare bill, so I'll probably be looking at scaling down to just myself again after this project is complete. It sucks, but that's how life is now. Hope you're able to do better where you're at though.

As far as the new Mechwarrior RPG, known as A Time of War, I have only looked over the basics and haven't played it yet, but I'm impressed at the reworking that CGL gave that system. 3rd Edition MechWarrior wasn't exactly great, but it was better suited to RP other characters than a MechWarrior than 1st or 2nd Edition were. I do miss some of the cheesy 80's artwork that made the old Housebooks and Sourcebooks iconic, but I don't have any complaints against the new art either, it's just a different style. One of the biggest regrets I have from FASA's demise is that BattleTroops never got a revision. I guess that AToW does okay with integrating into Total Warfare rules, but to be honest I haven't tried looking into that aspect yet. It's on my to-do list, but that list is longer than my arm at this point so who knows when I'll get around to it.

[Threat Doc]

Paladin1, on 14 November 2011 - 08:32 AM, said:

It sucks, but that's how life is now. Hope you're able to do better where you're at though.

Well, as soon as Obama's out of office, and maybe the next two presidents, hehe, things will begin to return to normal. As for doing better here in southern Colorado, not bloody likely.

Quote

As far as the new Mechwarrior RPG, known as A Time of War, I have only looked over the basics and haven't played it yet, but I'm impressed at the reworking that CGL gave that system.

I looked over it, and frankly, spending 5000 experience points to build a character seems a bit too GURPS-ish to me, hehe. I know AToW is basically the very same system as CBTRPG (aka 3rd Ed), but I don't know, I'll have to see what it's all about to really build a character; seems more complex than it needs to be.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 14 November 2011 - 11:48 AM.

[Max Liao]

FASA has my 2 best loves ...

• BattleTech - my first game as gamer nerd (even before D&D).
  
• EarthDawn - the best RPG (IMO) to date. (Well, not 2nd Ed, of which I was a play tester, but 1st Ed (FASA) is good and 3rd Ed. Rocks!)

Consolation prizes go to:

• Star Trek III Combat Simulator
  
• Doctor Who RPG

[metro]

The whole things disgusts me.

We would not had to have waited 10-11 years for a new game, had someone pulled their head out!

[Max Liao]

Paladin1, on 14 November 2011 - 06:14 AM, said:

... I tend to stay in the 3rd Succession War period, but several of the new products which CGL has produced to fill out the early years of the Battletech universe have helped dispel some of that jaded outlook. The Reunification War and Age of War sourcebooks are an absolute breath of fresh air when compared to the Jihad timeline. If you haven't gotten them yet, do so.

You, sir, are my new best friend. I've always liked the idea of going backward in time as opposed to forward ... or do both. There's so much history (canon and open/untold) that can be used to provide years of good BattleTech gaming and story telling. I'd love a fall of the Star League trilogy (or series) to be told; or a 1st Succession War, or an (Alexander?) Davion civil war, etc.

[Amarus Cameron]

I have had similar tales of woe about Wiesman regaled to me by buddies of mine...the woe that man can bring is tangible.

[empath]

Okay, don't wanna be pedantic here, but the thing to remember here is that Tale From The Trenches is strictly speaking about the '07 closure of FASA Interactive FASA Studio by Micro$oft (who had bought the talent and IPs from FASA Corp itself in '99).

Yeah, *FASA*itself* isn't technically dead - it isn't participating in any business activities, but it still exists as a corporation that holds the original intellectual property rights (well, not ALL of them...stupid 'limited to only model kits' license) and licenses them out to other business entities.

As far as I've been able to divine without breaking into anyone's offices/company computers , the Battletech license goes from FASA to two receivers: WizKids gets the main book & board-game rights (and then 're-licenses' some to Topps {CCG} and mostly the rest to FanPro and Catalyst Game Labs {not sure if that's...how to describe it?...in 'series or parallel', to draw an electronics analogy}), and the electronic gaming rights to Microsoft, who have since re-licensed those rights BACK to Jordan via Smith & Tinker...as far as I know, Piranha is either working for S&T or getting the 'vidja game' license from them.

Why does Mr. W license the game from FASA to M$ then back to his other company? Near as I can tell, he can't simultaneously grant rights to both Microsoft and Smith & Tinker, and rather than take all the time and legal rigmarole of withdrawing licensing from FASA to M$ and then passing licensing from FASA to S&T, he took the simple route of letting M$ license the game rights to his new(er) venture.

Confused yet? This apparently is 'amateur hour' for corporate and intellectual property lawyers; may we never have to delve deeply into their world.