21 replies to this topic

[Flagrant]

PUG tactics in 12 vs 12. Yes it’s possible. PUG blob moves like an amoeba following the general direction most of the assaults are going. You can affect this by keeping yourself at the edge of the blob and moving slightly away from the group but staying close enough to run back to them. Try it in the new volcano map. The blob is moving slowly toward center. If you want to go left just station yourself at the intersection moving toward the direction you want to go so as to keep a small distance away from the main force and face the direction you want to go. More than likely several more likeminded teammates will follow your lead. This splits the blob up but at least you got 2 or 3 friendlies to go in a different direction. This is very good for the volcano map because usually the blob turns into a skinny snake. Better to have two skinny snakes or even three that are fairly close together but still far enough to be two or three fronts to the enemy.

This is very effective when the fight starts. Everyone knows to flank. So when the fight happens just distance yourself from the blob but don’t rush too far away. Just wait for more teammates to join you. You should text your intentions to your team. At minimum you safely guard against a flank from an enemy. Remember never run away by yourself. Just distance yourself so on the minimap everyone can see your intention which is to split the group up and go in a slightly different path

[Zeroshoot]

MWO Tactics: Amoeba blobs and skinny snakes.

[Sexport]

Volcano map strat.

Take command and yell at them until they realize that taking the center is a win. Close off the choke points and reap the rewards!

[Win Ott]

In the best games, I've found that those teams who make use of the lance groups will do very well. On 12 v 12, lance groups can be tasked to scout, assault, flank, or defend. This can be done very quickly by a commander. Of course, PUGS will do as they please, but if there are enough experienced players, the team will retain enough cohesion to pull out a win.

On assault games, there are now enough players to create a meaningful defense. Many players dislike this duty, but it can really pay off.

I think it would help a team commander, and promote role warfare, if mechs were grouped by by weight class. Alpha would have the lightest mechs, Charlie, the heaviest. Of course, giving a commander a choice of groupings would be even better, but that would be far more complicated.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Commander does have at least some choice in groupings - when you take command you can click and drag names from one group to another - helpful at times for sure

However I am not sure how it would affect (effect? never could keep those two straight) people who drop together - since they always start in the same lance (maybe that's why we do not have 5+man groups beyond the default 8-now-12 )

[LowSubmarino]

Random players in a 12 mechs team are incredibly badly organized simply because many individuals have very different agendas.

Some just want to test a new loadout and don't even watch the map. Some are brand new players. Some don't know the maps, are drunk or dont try to follow win conditions in a serious manner.

Without bashing an anonymous army of individual players I still have to say that random players are way more uncoordinated than a group of let's say wild buffalos or hyenas. Thos animals understand to stay in some sort of formation either for defensive or offensive reasons.

When I frequently observe how ineffective the grand majority of players behave in terms of winning a scenario if there is no incentive to prove once ability to adapt to situational challenges (friends in ts would be such an incentive) then it is hard to imagine the human species to ever reach a state of cooperation that doesn't require strict hierarchic and authoritative order. On such a level it is amazing to realize that many animals show a much higher ability to cooperate to achieve simple objectives.

An effective way to contribute without verbal communication or social incentives would require each individual to understand the most basic of strategies that much less intelligent mammals understand instinctively. Applied to mwo this would basically mean three things.

Stay more or less in one major group, protect the base and kill all hostiles to effectively attempt to avert a loss in a game. Let's say assault.

90% of the players follow the latter but fail to understand the first two concepts. Fail to understand, ignore, choose to overlook or deem unimportant at any particular time. Whatever you want to call it.

At first I was tempted to call the anonymous mass stupid but there is much more to it. Even in a sandbox simulation where a test group is provided with the information that the test encompasses an assessment of nonverbal and or nonlingual, situational group intelligence the testees would stumble over the sheer number of strategical choices that a human can intelectually understand while animals' lack of intelect will leave them only the most elemental strategies to achieve goals vital to survival.

In such a test scenario players would be confused, looking around at what other players do in all likelyhood, wandering aimlessly in multiple directions for brief periods to then repeat that procedure instead of following the most basic strategy to achieve victory in such a communicationless test. Which would be an attempt to dramatically increase the chances of averting a loss and not necessarily try to win. Meaning that ppl should simply find the nearest defensive positions to base and defend that area. This strategy would perform reasonably well even with absolutely know communication.

But there are too many factors that interfere with ppls innert abilities to act as an entity of individuals.

On the bloody lava map it is actually pretty easy to not lose by defending the base from multiple hills. About eight to ten times I managed to convince those random groups to just stay there with half the team on hills and the other half placed at the entrance of the mouth of one of the 'lanes' the enemy chose to attack from.

We won every single time not because we were so smart or a premade team but because we could fight at full strength, we were not drawn out and couldn't be capped without being killed before. Another two times the enemy team refused to challenge such a simple but effective strategy and the game ended in a draw.

Another interesting thing is that players are inexorably drawn onto the map. The initial 'movement' of the group is unstoppable in 99 % of the cases even when leaving the base on giant maps with a swarm of lights that sometimes end up in a group (and thus prolly also in the enemy group) is beyond ineffective. The chances to win against players that are only slightly more competent than the ai of an 1990s video game decrease dramatically when the team leaves the base of terra therma.

It's actually quite interesting to observe those 'lemmingtrains'. But without strong incentives like stated above or strict authoritative order humans are inferior to other mamals, not by potential but by an overwhelming number of possible choices.

[Roosterfish]

No strategeries are needed. Just don't go left.

[Khobai]

Pretty much all you need to do...

1) stay together in a group. this is crucial. The only mechs that should leave the main group are lights.
2) do NOT crowd teammates. Always stand to the side of friendly mechs not in front or behind them. This maximizes focus fire.
3) equip two er ppcs on your mech and gauss if possible.

[Sephlock]

"12 Vs 12 Pug Tactics"

Try to stay alive.



Generally, that's how games go.

I think everything is fine until around the 4 minute mark, when my finger wanders over to the "TAB" button or I round a corner, and then it's like:

[Victor Morson]

How to command a group of PUGs:

- Upgrade your engine
- Run in front of them
- Pretend you're the pied piper and walk to wherever you want them to go.

Seriously at least half will follow whoever is up front.

Sephlock, on 09 August 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

My friends and I laughed about "INCOMING LRMs, EJECT!" for years. That intro must have taken place during the LRM Apocalypse.

EDIT: Also I forgot how hilariously bad the weapons on the Vulture Prime were, in MW4 or MW:O. It's kind of hilarious a PPC Uziel is kicking the utter crap out of it despite being a 10 ton heavier Clan, more than any other 'mech there. Fitting in retrospect.

This video is totally the experience of a random PUG player trying to rambo a 4 man premade, now.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 August 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[Wulf96]

Great post, oneda. Very interesting and entertaining.

[Shifty Eyes]

oneda, on 09 August 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

big quote

lol what the hell is this? I lol'd at your in-depth meticulous breakdown of human behavior in MWO. Interesting post nonetheless!

I really think a lot of it just comes down to communication, for which there are few built-in channels for the game. Text forces your hands off the controls and many people don't even read it. Even a group of noobs is much more likely to win if directed by even a noob leader into some kind, any kind of formation or plan, just to get people on the same page.

[Davoke]

Some things that've worked for me:
1.Take charge, even if only on a lance level, you have that much more coordination.
2. Gain initiative. If your the first one out of the gate at start, you'll get followed, so take them somewhere good.
3. Continue your command. If you take command, keep barking orders via chat, keep your assaults together, keep your scouts harassing, keep your meds/heavies providing support. One match, i took charge of 5 assaults who wwere barely touched, we rushed the enemy in the back, focused our fire, and turned a 5-2(with us losing) into a 6-12.
4. If you have an Atlas or Highlander, and start getting hit during an advance, don't stop, don't turn around, seek cover, but keep pushing, the team will follow, and it will contribute to victory.

[LowSubmarino]

Shifty Eyes, on 10 August 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

lol what the hell is this? I lol'd at your in-depth meticulous breakdown of human behavior in MWO. Interesting post nonetheless!

I really think a lot of it just comes down to communication, for which there are few built-in channels for the game. Text forces your hands off the controls and many people don't even read it. Even a group of noobs is much more likely to win if directed by even a noob leader into some kind, any kind of formation or plan, just to get people on the same page.

Yeah, but it is beyond difficult to keep non-ts-linked players in any kind of lose formation. Somebody mentioned that, for a time, you can direct the herde into a certain direction by taking lead. Even in those situations the group will disperse eventually once u stopped which you will have to do at some point unless you plan for a direct base rush which actually works sometimes if the other team is unable to react to such a simple strategy.

But a pug team will always be wastly inferior to a group which consists partly or totally of a premade ts team. I have had a lot of 12 - 0 matches today. The last game, in canyon network, each team had 8 mechs left and our remaining mechs were somewhat gathered at base. In the following 3 mins first one mech, then another and then yet another, etc. left our group and followed the same jenner in one of the canyons to be instantly or almost instantly destroyed.

After 3 mechs died that way in the first 90 seconds i thought the remaining 5 would either stay at base together or at least leave together in whatever direction. But each and every one of them followed a light alone into a canyon until a k2 catapult and my stalker were all that was left. And guess what the catapult did...

I'd really love to read the minds of those players for a few seconds if they actually have a rational explanation which they base their suicide action on or if theyr purely driven by visual stimulation like "jenner ahead...I must follow".

Edited by oneda, 11 August 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

The same principles of 8vs8 solopub still apply to 12vs12 - the only significant differences as far as I can tell is that you're a lot more vulnerable to focus fire and aren't able to perform flanker or assassin roles effectively until very late in the match; miscalculating a maneuver is also punished far more severely than it used to be.
This means it's a lot more important not only to preserve your strength but also to keep your team mates alive somehow.

I adhere to a small list of tactical goals when I'm playing my Jenner.

1) Scout ahead of the main battle group until they make enemy contact.
2) Once they're engaged, scout flanks.
3) Don't engage any enemy 'Mechs by yourself at the start of a match.
4) Draw pursuing enemies into the main battle group.
5) Try to detect ECM-equipped enemy 'Mechs and take them out.
6) Stick with ECM-equipped friendly 'Mechs if they are attacked and keep them alive.
7) Target enemy 'Mechs to determine which ones are the most damaged and destroy them.

The idea is to attack and defend as dynamically as possible, with or without the conscious cooperation of the rest of the solo players.
This should be perfectly viable for 'Mechs in other weight classes as long as they're fast; I wouldn't try to play this aggressively with any 'Mech moving at less than 100kph at full throttle.

[Bolgani]

oneda, on 09 August 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

. . . I still have to say that random players are way more uncoordinated than a group of let's say wild buffalos or hyenas. Thos animals understand to stay in some sort of formation either for defensive or offensive reasons . . .

Animals in a pack know each other - PUGgers are usually strangers, and directing them is like herding cats by voice command. I mean, sure, if you play enough, you'll notice SOME of the same folks popping up from time to time, but unless you arrange for a premade, most are strangers. And a lot of folks aren't going to follow a stranger's orders.

You can get a sense of how things are going to go at the beginning - if everyone scatters, you're going to have a problem. If someone starts firing autocannon, missles, etc., for more than a single test shot, wasting ammo, you'll have a problem; more so if other team members decide they have to kill the same rock. When your scout circles around and locks someone 1500m away and your missile boats start emptying their magazines - things aren't likely to go well.

As a casual player, I'm usually piloting a medium (Hunch) or heavy (Jaeger), though I'm working to earn $$$ to buy a third Atlas. I've found that I get best results by flanking an Atlas (preferably a D-DC) and supporting him; concentrate fire on whatever he's shooting at, and try to keep the lights off his back. Also keep an eye on the mini map - was in a melee on Tourmaline last week and saw one of our guys was separated and being picked at by two opponents; I circled around and saw our Cataphract being harassed by two speedy lights. So - standing off a bit - I killed them both. (I love it when a plan comes together.) That's what I try to do - support team mates.

But I won't follow someone who runs headlong into the midst of the enemy. So my results - damage and kills - have been improving.

Do I make mistakes? You better believe I do. There are plenty of times I find myself either out of position to give proper support, or I round a corner and find a whole bunch of bad guys.

But I learn a little each time.

[Drollzy]

oneda, on 09 August 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Random players in a 12 mechs team are incredibly badly organized simply because many individuals have very different agendas.

Some just want to test a new loadout and don't even watch the map. Some are brand new players. Some don't know the maps, are drunk or dont try to follow win conditions in a serious manner.

Without bashing an anonymous army of individual players I still have to say that random players are way more uncoordinated than a group of let's say wild buffalos or hyenas. Thos animals understand to stay in some sort of formation either for defensive or offensive reasons.

When I frequently observe how ineffective the grand majority of players behave in terms of winning a scenario if there is no incentive to prove once ability to adapt to situational challenges (friends in ts would be such an incentive) then it is hard to imagine the human species to ever reach a state of cooperation that doesn't require strict hierarchic and authoritative order. On such a level it is amazing to realize that many animals show a much higher ability to cooperate to achieve simple objectives.

An effective way to contribute without verbal communication or social incentives would require each individual to understand the most basic of strategies that much less intelligent mammals understand instinctively. Applied to mwo this would basically mean three things.

Stay more or less in one major group, protect the base and kill all hostiles to effectively attempt to avert a loss in a game. Let's say assault.

90% of the players follow the latter but fail to understand the first two concepts. Fail to understand, ignore, choose to overlook or deem unimportant at any particular time. Whatever you want to call it.

At first I was tempted to call the anonymous mass stupid but there is much more to it. Even in a sandbox simulation where a test group is provided with the information that the test encompasses an assessment of nonverbal and or nonlingual, situational group intelligence the testees would stumble over the sheer number of strategical choices that a human can intelectually understand while animals' lack of intelect will leave them only the most elemental strategies to achieve goals vital to survival.

In such a test scenario players would be confused, looking around at what other players do in all likelyhood, wandering aimlessly in multiple directions for brief periods to then repeat that procedure instead of following the most basic strategy to achieve victory in such a communicationless test. Which would be an attempt to dramatically increase the chances of averting a loss and not necessarily try to win. Meaning that ppl should simply find the nearest defensive positions to base and defend that area. This strategy would perform reasonably well even with absolutely know communication.

But there are too many factors that interfere with ppls innert abilities to act as an entity of individuals.

On the bloody lava map it is actually pretty easy to not lose by defending the base from multiple hills. About eight to ten times I managed to convince those random groups to just stay there with half the team on hills and the other half placed at the entrance of the mouth of one of the 'lanes' the enemy chose to attack from.

We won every single time not because we were so smart or a premade team but because we could fight at full strength, we were not drawn out and couldn't be capped without being killed before. Another two times the enemy team refused to challenge such a simple but effective strategy and the game ended in a draw.

Another interesting thing is that players are inexorably drawn onto the map. The initial 'movement' of the group is unstoppable in 99 % of the cases even when leaving the base on giant maps with a swarm of lights that sometimes end up in a group (and thus prolly also in the enemy group) is beyond ineffective. The chances to win against players that are only slightly more competent than the ai of an 1990s video game decrease dramatically when the team leaves the base of terra therma.

It's actually quite interesting to observe those 'lemmingtrains'. But without strong incentives like stated above or strict authoritative order humans are inferior to other mamals, not by potential but by an overwhelming number of possible choices.

*SIGH* the boring and lame base defense... Have to wait 15 minutes for action on a crap map (thermal) forcing the game into a cap war. I hate playing in a team when some twit cry's "Lets just wait here at base" sure its an objective but it is the most boring tactic. I wish PGI would just get their collective ***** into gear and remove base capping from assault all together.

When ever some twit crys "lets defend the base" I inform the enemy and disconnect jump in another mech and join another game that has real Mechwarriors.

Sorry... It just makes for a very boring game... If you want to do that you should go play tower defense on you mobile...seriously

[Aastarius]

cdrolly, on 13 August 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

*SIGH* the boring and lame base defense... Have to wait 15 minutes for action on a crap map (thermal) forcing the game into a cap war. I hate playing in a team when some twit cry's "Lets just wait here at base" sure its an objective but it is the most boring tactic. I wish PGI would just get their collective ***** into gear and remove base capping from assault all together.

When ever some twit crys "lets defend the base" I inform the enemy and disconnect jump in another mech and join another game that has real Mechwarriors.

Sorry... It just makes for a very boring game... If you want to do that you should go play tower defense on you mobile...seriously

As opposed to heading off to middle/enemy base only to have a "Your base is being captured" message pop up, with timer dropping fast due to half the opposing team being there?

[LowSubmarino]

cdrolly, on 13 August 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

*SIGH* the boring and lame base defense... Have to wait 15 minutes for action on a crap map (thermal) forcing the game into a cap war. I hate playing in a team when some twit cry's "Lets just wait here at base" sure its an objective but it is the most boring tactic. I wish PGI would just get their collective ***** into gear and remove base capping from assault all together.

When ever some twit crys "lets defend the base" I inform the enemy and disconnect jump in another mech and join another game that has real Mechwarriors.

Sorry... It just makes for a very boring game... If you want to do that you should go play tower defense on you mobile...seriously

What you suggest concerning base defense is actually not very good. A sound base defense is constantly scouting ahead with lights to then maneuver into a defensive position that covers the respective attack lanes/canyons/directions. A proper base defense is just a concept to cover/scout all possible directions of attack and thus the map. It requires constant repositioning if you face a good team and is hardly boring.

Even an offensive base defense can work if the offensive team still keeps vision and scouting information on all possible attack directions of the base.

That way a team can react according to enemy moving and not blindly run into the middle of a map to then, in all likelyhood, get capped. It is just your narrow and simple minded definition of base defense that turns it into a boring 'wait right at base without careful observation of the area' strategy.

And no I don't mind securing a specific area or path with a few assaults instead of walking all over the map. I like to do that sometimes and choose my raven for those times. Then I do exactly that. Scout the far east/ west areas of the map for approaching scouts or, if I dont find anything, attempt to locate the main enemy force or cap them mostly to split them. After a few moments I withdraw and observe if enemy scouts return to base or if I was successful in splitting them.

A proper base defense is spread out around all possible paths leading to the base and forwarding enemy movement to all other mechs so that they can then relocate behind you to strengthen your position and vice versa. If you think that is boring and blind rushes into the middle of the area aren't then you and I have a very different understanding of what is boring or what is not.

Edited by oneda, 14 August 2013 - 04:23 AM.

[Drollzy]

oneda, on 14 August 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

What you suggest concerning base defense is actually not very good. A sound base defense is constantly scouting ahead with lights to then maneuver into a defensive position that covers the respective attack lanes/canyons/directions. A proper base defense is just a concept to cover/scout all possible directions of attack and thus the map. It requires constant repositioning if you face a good team and is hardly boring.

Even an offensive base defense can work if the offensive team still keeps vision and scouting information on all possible attack directions of the base.

That way a team can react according to enemy moving and not blindly run into the middle of a map to then, in all likelyhood, get capped. It is just your narrow and simple minded definition of base defense that turns it into a boring 'wait right at base without careful observation of the area' strategy.

And no I don't mind securing a specific area or path with a few assaults instead of walking all over the map. I like to do that sometimes and choose my raven for those times. Then I do exactly that. Scout the far east/ west areas of the map for approaching scouts or, if I dont find anything, attempt to locate the main enemy force or cap them mostly to split them. After a few moments I withdraw and observe if enemy scouts return to base or if I was successful in splitting them.

A proper base defense is spread out around all possible paths leading to the base and forwarding enemy movement to all other mechs so that they can then relocate behind you to strengthen your position and vice versa. If you think that is boring and blind rushes into the middle of the area aren't then you and I have a very different understanding of what is boring or what is not.

I dont mind a base defense and yes the way you describe looks good on paper. But come on we both know it doesn't work like that unless your in a 12 man premade team. What ends up happening is everyone clusters around the base and on therma you wait for 15 minutes doing nothing. 3 or 4 of your team mates find it boring and wander off too lonely deaths and then the enemy trickles in you kill maybe 4 of them and the rest of the enemy run back to their base you then receive a text "We have gone back to our base if you want to fight come and get us" or something along those lines. I don't have 20 minutes to waste on that crap and its not a competitive match its a pug drop. Sorry mate but that's boring. The base defense you describe just doesn't happen in pug matches we both know this and I am not going to waste my time on the off chance that it does...my time is more valuable than that drivel.

The boring part is the waiting around for 15 minutes doing nothing... I would rather be moving into a position either for an ambush a feint or flanking maneuver oh blind rushing is just as stupid as "Hey I know lets camp at the base". Opting for Base Defense before even seeing the enemy screams NOOB. If thats the case I say keep at it you'll get there.

Edited by cdrolly, 14 August 2013 - 08:38 PM.