117 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

Please PGI find a different and more balanced algorithm for matchmaking. I am frequently facing impossible odds in PUG matches. The following is just an example...



1. My team has only 11 players, but the enemy team has 12.

2. More than a third of my team die quickly scoring less than 10, inflicting little damage. (More than half score less than 20.)

3. My team's remaining five competent players are left fighting an opposing team of 12 - outnumbered more than two to one If we're lucky, we collectively manage two kills before being crushed by the overwhelming weight of opposition numbers.

I 95% PUG, and I see this kind of match very frequently. Do any other (solo) players experience this...?

To be clear: I have no problem with losing. But as a PUG I'd at least like to have a reasonable chance of winning. Both teams need to have a roughly equal chance of winning. Playing against such clearly stacked odds, time after time, is no fun. There has to be a better way, surely?

Edited by Appogee, 10 August 2013 - 01:28 AM.

[xenoglyph]

Appogee, on 10 August 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

There has to be a better way, surely?

They got top men on it. top. men.

[Zylo]

In theory the Elo system should push your win rate to around 50% if you're only dropping solo. If your win rate is sitting around 50% then Elo is working, if your win rate is far lower it could indicate more problems such as a low player population during the hours you normally run matches which would result in a wider tolerance used by matchmaker.

Weight class mismatching is often an issue in matches that end in a stomp for either side. The example you show looks reasonably close in terms of weight class matching so that wasn't a problem in the match shown above.

[jeffsw6]

xenoglyph, on 10 August 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

They got top men on it. top. men.

They outsourced?

[Slashmckill]

Whats funny is that yesterday when i was running several matches with one of my friends we got a 15 match losing streak, but when we stopped dropping as a team of 2 we both instantly got matches that weren't complete stomps. (actually it wasn't funny at all, i wanted to break/punch something after the seventh loss in a row)

I ran 15 more matchs after we split and they were either really close or pretty decisive, so i don't know if that was just a total matchmaker fail for 15 games, or by dropping as a team the system thought we were godmode hackers that could fight the 12 opposing mechs by ourselves. (either way i would really appreciate pgi looking into it, i rather like not being dropped into matches where my teammates have the responsiveness of damp sand)

Edited by Slashmckill, 10 August 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Training Instructor]

Same experience when pugging. I play a variety of different chassis and weight classes, and the story is the same for all of them.

Getting 500+ damage and 1-4 kills in a losing match isn't very uncommon anymore. I know that I'm supposed to get 200 dmg and four kills from elite CT kill shots, but I'm not good enough to hit moving mechs in the CT from 600+ meters consistently...sorry. The point to this story though is that it's quite often that the majority of my teammates do very little, similar to the picture the OP posted.

In one of my earlier games today I told my team to quit hiding behind me and behind hills and actually go shoot people, because the enemy team was traipsing out in the open over and over again. Sadly, me and two other guys were the only people on our team taking this opportunity to lay down fire. It wasn't a total stomp for the other team, but our team could have annihilated them if more people on our team would have been shooting the heavy/assault mechs running around out of cover.

My records for losing matches so far.....777 damage and 3 kills. 987 damage and 4 kills. How much of the load am I expected to carry?

[One Medic Army]

The sad truth of the matter is that when it's 12v12 there's (usually) little impact a single person can reasonably expect to have.

[Appogee]

Wouldn't it be better for the matchmaker to find groups of similarly skilled players, have them fight each other in a game with reasonably even odds of winning or losing, and simply not care whether that yields a 50/50 win ratio or not?

Edited by Appogee, 10 August 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[xenoglyph]

Appogee, on 10 August 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be better for the matchmaker to find groups of similarly skilled players, have them fight each other in a game with reasonably even odds of winning or losing, and simply not care whether that yields a 50/50 win ratio or not?

PGI had a stroke of genius. They realized they're murdering their player count, so they devised a way to throw skilled and unskilled players together when the queues dry up....thus lowering the wait times for us suckers that are left.

[One Medic Army]

Appogee, on 10 August 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

So maybe the matchmaker is just determined to bring my win rate back to 50% and will stop at nothing to achieve that.

However, it's making for a crap game experience. I love MechWarrior. I've sunk plenty of money into this game, and would like to have a reason to continue to do so. But it's just no fun when it dawns on you that you have zero chance of winning in half your games, as the matchmaker pursues its 50% win rate.

Wouldn't it be better for the matchmaker to find groups of similarly skilled players, have them fight each other in a game with reasonably even odds of winning or losing, and simply not care whether that yields a 50/50 win ratio or not?

Well, theoretically that's the way matchmaker works.
The problem, is that the Elo equation makes no differentiation between the guy who did 50dmg before dying in his atlas and got carried, compared to the guy who did over 700dmg in a Jenner with 4+kills.
They both get win credit, if they had equal Elo before the match they both have equal Elo after the match.

Here's the other thing, in MWO positioning and having your whole team being on the same page tactically is huge, and being caught out in the open unexpectedly can be the difference between a 50dmg game and a 1000dmg game, it's unforgiving that way. If one person gets rolled, it usually snowballs to include everyone nearby them.

[Hauser]

One Medic Army, on 10 August 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

They both get win credit, if they had equal Elo before the match they both have equal Elo after the match.

You can not measure by a simple statistic how much an individual contributed to a game.

However if you play enough games your team mates and opponents will statistically cancel each other out. You are the only constant. This makes the outcome of a large number of matches a valid way to measure a players skill, even in a team game.

[Khobai]

ELO should be based on % games you score over 200 damage. Instead of whatever meaningless algorithm they use now... If you cant do at least 200 damage per game youre pretty useless to your team.

[Karenai]

I have the feeling they reset ELO from time to time. Maybe not for everyone, but sometimes it feels that way. Getting thrown together with people in trial mechs, who run into walls the whole time (I mean not 1 or 2 but sometime 4-6 on your own team), felles like ELO reset.

Scout lances on Alpine are fun, too.

That is how games look way too often. 2-4 guys on both teams doing more damage then their team combined and dropping 5 assaults vs 5 scouts on alpine...

[Alistair Winter]

Zylo, on 10 August 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

In theory the Elo system should push your win rate to around 50% if you're only dropping solo. If your win rate is sitting around 50% then Elo is working

I don't think Appogee's point is that he wants to win 90% of all matches, or even that he's losing more than 50% of matches. He's saying that most of his matches when PUGing are steamrolls, i.e. one side demolishes the other side.

If the ELO system is effectively making a 'winner team' and a 'loser team' to ensure that everyone gets a 50% win rate, then most matches are incredibly boring because 1) You end up on a predetermined losing team with very little chance of winning or 2) You end up on a predetermined winning team, completely outclassing your enemy, where the odds are so heavily stacked against your enemy that you could probably just start the match by powering down and getting a cup of coffee.

To illustrate the point more clearly, imagine that ELO corresponds to weight class. So 90% of all matches are 12 assault mechs vs 12 medium mechs. Regardless of what team you're on, it's not fun, because it's a total steamroll with very little suspense and very little ability for the individual to make a difference. A team of 12 Stalkers will almost always beat a team of 12 Trebuchets.

It seems to me that an unfortunate sideffect of mech durability (i.e. most mechs can't be one-shotted) is that an elite player can't have the same impact as in games like CounterStrike. In games where players can be insta-killed, you'll more often see a single player making up for the lack of skill on his team. In CS:S, a "very good" player can often take out 4 "pretty good" players. That's rarely the case in MW:O. Which means "yay, teamwork" but also "yay, predetermined outcomes"

I can't really be sure that this is the cause of the problem, however, because PGI has decided to keep ELO values secret for reasons unknown. They say it would lead to a bad atmosphere among the players, but that's just completely ridiculous.

TL:DR - ELO is leading to steamrolls and boring matches, perhaps.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 10 August 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[Takony]

Honestly I don't know how Elo or Matchmaker weighs kills damage win/loss or deaths. But. With CW on the far far horizon in PGIs place I would take the opportunity with UI2 to implement ranked and unranked matches and 1 to 5 or 6 clearly and distinctly separated matchmaking brackets that only mixes people from immediately above adjacent brackets eg 1 with 1 and 2, 2 with 2 and 3 etc. That way we wouldn't get noobs mixed with vets, etc.
For the OP: there are 10-15 match streaks when MM decides you won too much already and sets out to destroy your win loss rate by throwing you in these kinda matches. I totally accept losing or dieing when I play dumb, but getting mixed up with ******* when I actually play my best is still a loss, but one that is unfair.

[Hauser]

Alistair Winter, on 10 August 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

If the ELO system is effectively making a 'winner team' and a 'loser team' to ensure that everyone gets a 50% win rate, then most matches are incredibly boring because 1) You end up on a predetermined losing team with very little chance of winning or 2) You end up on a predetermined winning team, completely outclassing your enemy, where the odds are so heavily stacked against your enemy that you could probably just start the match by powering down and getting a cup of coffee.

(...)

TL:DR - ELO is leading to steamrolls and boring matches, perhaps.

I'm sorry Alistair but you and other people are mistaken.

The matchmaker does not try to force 50% win ratio on you by making winning and losing teams. Rather it tries to find 16 people with a similar skill and puts them in a game together. Because you are fighting your equals you should win 50% of your games. This is however is not a guarantee for winning. You still have to do the work and put in your best effort.

Steamrolls are to be expected due to Lanchesters Sqaure Law. Once a team has lost 2 mechs the difference in firepower is 12^2 - 10^2 = 144 - 100 = 44. In otherwords by killing two mechs the effective firepower is reduced by 1/3. These laws especially apply in the current blob warfare.

https://en.wikipedia...%27s_square_law

Khobai, on 10 August 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

ELO should be based on % games you score over 200 damage. Instead of whatever meaningless algorithm they use now... If you cant do at least 200 damage per game youre pretty useless to your team.

I'm sorry but it is not a meaningless algorithm.

Elo is a rating system that based on your current rating and that of your opponent determines how likely you are to win. If you win a match you are expected to lose or lose a match you are expected to win (and the margin can be as little as 1%) the rating system will take it as proof that its rating was wrong and adjust your rating. How much your rating is adjusted depends on big the chance of winning was. If you win a match you're expected to lose by 1% your Elo only goes up slightly and vise versa when you lose a match you are expected to win.

Elo and variations on the system are used in a large number of sports to rate players and teams. It used by League of Legends and Starcraft. Though both hide it under a ranking system.

You may find these links informative:

http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/
http://mwomercs.com/...-making-update/

https://en.wikipedia...o_rating_system

Karenai, on 10 August 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

I have the feeling they reset ELO from time to time. Maybe not for everyone, but sometimes it feels that way. Getting thrown together with people in trial mechs, who run into walls the whole time (I mean not 1 or 2 but sometime 4-6 on your own team), felles like ELO reset.

The matchmaker tries to do find 24 players of a similar skill, players near a specific Elo value. If it can't find enough players it will accept players that are further from that value. So what might happen is that there are 20 green players in trial mechs launching at the same time. If after a minute and a half the match maker can't find any more green players it will start to accept veterans. As such it might dump 4 veterans in with 20 green players just to get a game going. This also works the other way around. It can dump 4 green players in a match with 20 veterans.

So yes, you can still end up playing with green players in trial mechs. But it is either that or no match at all.

Now personally I wouldn't mind if the wait time was increased to 3-5 minutes if that takes the green players out of my games.

Edited by Hauser, 10 August 2013 - 04:14 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

I PUG 100% of the time and, while I've had some matches like that, they certainly aren't the norm. And when there's that much force that can be directed at the first guy to peek over a hill or around a corner, dying early doesn't come close to determining skill. Unless you're referring to the "skill" of hiding behind others so you never get targeted.

[Hauser]

Takony, on 10 August 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

For the OP: there are 10-15 match streaks when MM decides you won too much already and sets out to destroy your win loss rate by throwing you in these kinda matches. I totally accept losing or dieing when I play dumb, but getting mixed up with ******* when I actually play my best is still a loss, but one that is unfair.

Nope. Not how it works. Neither Elo nor the match maker care about your win loss ratio. Rather Elo predicts how likely an outcome is and adjusts your rating proportionately to that likelihood if it was wrong.

If you win 15 games in a row there is a good chance that your Elo has gone up quite a bit. You will now be playing with and against better players. Now you might not realize it but by now you could be playing above your abilities.

You will continue to be matched with and against better players until you've lost enough to reach the Elo level you belong or you improve your skills enough to stay at the level (or a bit of both).

Edited by Hauser, 10 August 2013 - 04:03 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Appogee, on 10 August 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

I 95% PUG, and I see this kind of match very frequently. Do any other (solo) players experience this...?

actually, you're on an island and those games are outlier cases. i suggest you buy an overlord package. it comes with a ticket to the mainland aboard the Titanic.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 10 August 2013 - 04:53 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Hauser, on 10 August 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

I'm sorry Alistair but you and other people are mistaken.
The matchmaker does not try to force 50% win ratio on you by making winning and losing teams. Rather it tries to find 16 people with a similar skill and puts them in a game together. Because you are fighting your equals you should win 50% of your games. This is however is not a guarantee for winning. You still have to do the work and put in your best effort.

First of all, do you have a source for this? I'm only going by what I've read on the forum. Right now, a lot of the information about the game is hidden amongst dozens of patch notes, forum announcements and twitter posts, which makes it hard to keep up.

Second, I've accepted the explanation provided in my post, although I used to believe the explanation you've given me. The reason I changed my view (again, in lack of actual sources) is that my explanation fits a lot better with the observed reality. Your explanation, as good as it sounds, makes no sense unless the match maker has a window of 3 seconds to find players with similar ELO before giving up and just scrambling for anyone still in the waiting list.

I'm almost tempted to keep a record of how often I run into a relatively new player in a trial mech, who clearly doesn't know what he's doing. "Fighting your equals" is a very poor description of what's actually going on my games, and there are many who have similar experiences. So again, the only possible explanation if you are indeed correct, has to be that the matchmaker has an extremely short window to find players, to the point that it approximates a random sample of the online population.

Hauser, on 10 August 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

Steamrolls are to be expected due to Lanchesters Sqaure Law. Once a team has lost 2 mechs the difference in firepower is 12^2 - 10^2 = 144 - 100 = 44. In otherwords by killing two mechs the effective firepower is reduced by 1/3. These laws especially apply in the current blob warfare.
https://en.wikipedia...%27s_square_law

I am familiar with the law, it's often cited on these forums. It's not always applicable however, and to simply list it as a universal explanation is extreme over-simplification. There are, after all, a number of factors that should be considered. Not to mention that the principle described has a varying degree of effect, depending on what game you're playing. Not all team FPS games are as predictable as MW:O.