293 replies to this topic

[Rippthrough]

You were in a large pulse laser awesome. A jenner with flamers could have killed you.

[Hotthedd]

Rippthrough, on 19 August 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Because it's the first time machine guns have actually felt like viable weapons?

Given my sig, you should probably realise that if they weren't, or were massively OP, I'd be up in arms about it. I'm not, they're fine.

I guess we define "viable" differently. I would like to see the damage be commensurate with its tonnage and heat.

[Rippthrough]

Koniving, on 19 August 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

How come no one thinks that flamers should become viable weapons?

Some of us do, but imagine the forum rage when people die whilst hearing the plink of machineguns whilst not being able to see because of the flamers.

Hotthedd, on 19 August 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I guess we define "viable" differently. I would like to see the damage be commensurate with its tonnage and heat.

4xMG's + ammo for a match = 5 tons.
4 x small lasers = 2 tons.

Any mech mounting those will probably have enough DHS's in the engine not to worry about heat anyway. If they do, they can fit 3 tons more heatsinks, and still not have to cope with a cone of fire or explosive ammo.

[Koniving]

Rippthrough, on 19 August 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Some of us do, but imagine the forum rage when people die whilst hearing the plink of machineguns whilst not being able to see because of the flamers.

Small lasers suffer in heat. MGs don't. But if it were easier to mount 4 MGs or so onto a mech without sacrificing full ballistic slots it'd be a lot easier (say 1 ballistic can mount 2 MGs).

[stjobe]

Koniving, on 19 August 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Small lasers suffer in heat. MGs don't.

A Jenner with 4xSL and 10 DHS overheats in 1 minute 14 seconds. If you unlock Elite, it takes 2 minutes 43 seconds
.
Slap 2 extra DHS on it (for a total of 12, and still less total tonnage than 4xMG and ammo) and it takes 2 minutes 16 seconds to overheat, and over 23 minutes if Elited.

I dare you to fire your Small Lasers for 1 minute 14 seconds straight in an actual match, being on a target the whole time.

In short, Small Lasers do not "suffer" heat in any appreciable way.

Edited by stjobe, 19 August 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

Rippthrough, on 19 August 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

You were in a large pulse laser awesome. A jenner with flamers could have killed you.

you must be some kind of genius;

no it couldn't have.
been piloting this mech for over 6 months

http://i60.photobuck...zpse6cb1b00.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps435e40d3.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps699a95b2.png
http://i60.photobuck...zpsaab4775a.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps4076943e.png
http://i60.photobuck...zpsca9195c4.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps4b6f94ec.jpg
http://i60.photobuck...zps672625a3.jpg
http://i60.photobuck...zps5fe37066.png
http://i60.photobuck...zpsfdc1afbd.png

lots more where this came from

elo well set in, kdr for this particular mech peaked on 1.18 which is halfway decent. (still the worst among my mechbays, but not too relevant)

i can kill any type of jagermech (except the new machinegun-boat one apparently) and any kind of mech without exception.
including the uber cheese builds of the past, 4ppc, twin ac20.

now that 12v12 is in my damage output has lowered because of the team work so i dont cap the screens so often but the dueling basically any mech is largely the same


very nice of you to be condescending to me and implying im a total noob though, nice try at undermining my opinion. this is my weakest build but that doesn't mean "a jenner with flamers harhar derpherp duhuhuh *DROOL*!!!"



what are you saying, that i shouldnt field this build because you don't approve of it? ha.
please tell me what i should be piloting, my master!!!!!!! it obviously doesn't matter what i like to run just what you like or what is "competitive" i guess. is that it?

could you maybe give me a list of what mechs are approved? maybe you could post a tier list on the player help forums, that should go well!


or maybe tell me how i can improve my builds so the LARGE PULSE LASER can stand up to the powerful uber build of boating 6 machineguns.... i can't even type this sentence with a straight face


you know what I think though? i think you're one of those BRILLIANT MINDS that fill these forums to the brim who think that the game should be a coin toss, once engaged with a jager at 250 meters there shouldn't be any way for me to win. this quote/unquote "mentality" (in the loosest sense of the word) was very prevalent throughout the ac40 jager days.


which would suggest you want to reduce the game to rock paper scissors to keep in line with your mental faculties, or that you're just boating machineguns and enjoying your moment in the sun at the expense of other players


seen these builds get 5+ kills on the current meta (when spectating my own team mate fielding it) i guess we're seeing a big rise of machinegun jagermechs because they're just barely as good as a flamethrower build huh? sure..

Edited by Mazzyplz, 19 August 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[Black Templar]

MGs were never meant to be an effective weapon against armored targets. they are a critseeking weapon. therefore their damage against armor is fine. their damage against internal structure on the other hand is a little over the top. they should be toned down a little bit, or people will start to expoit it en masse and the forums will be on fire again....

[Selfish]

Black Templar, on 19 August 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

MGs were never meant to be an effective weapon against armored targets. they are a critseeking weapon. therefore their damage against armor is fine. their damage against internal structure on the other hand is a little over the top. they should be toned down a little bit, or people will start to expoit it en masse and the forums will be on fire again....

This is false. In the TT critseeking was a viable way to destroy components outright, and MGs had a higher chance than most other weapons to trigger those crits (which even featured through armor crits). In its description (and actual damage) the TT Machine Gun is the equivalent of an AC/2 and was created entirely as a low-end mech destroyer. It wasn't until they even added infantry to TT that the machine gun even became 'good' at it, and that's more of a utility strength of the weapon.

What exactly makes you say that MGs are suddenly over the top when striking unarmored components? They do damage now, sure, but what weapon combinations do they OUTDPS? My math may be a little rusty, but single-alpha 3x UAC/5, 4x AC/5s, and 4x AC/2s still deal more DPS than 4x MG versus unarmored components. Those are all ballistic burst/DPS hybrids that have vastly more range and still maintain much more of that damage against armor.

Here's a chart of the single weapon CDTPS added to the weapon's DPS: https://docs.google....zx=heubgpcdzr7v

MGs can do damage against an opponent, but they can't outcompete serious ballistic users. They have to give up damage mitigation to get damage on target, and have the smallest range in combination with the hardest aiming mechanic in the game. It's a fair trade for being "efficient", and it creates a new niche for mechs that can strap on weapons in their previously superfluous/useless ballistic slots.

[stjobe]

Selfish, on 19 August 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

MGs had a higher chance than most other weapons to trigger those crits

The MG had the exact same chance to trigger a crit as any other weapon; it had no special crit rules.

If your to-hit roll succeeded, you rolled on the hit location table; a roll of 2 meant you rolled on the critical hit table even if hitting an armoured section.

If you got a 2 on the to-hit roll, or you hit a section with stripped armour, you rolled on the crit table.
A roll of 2-7 meant you didn't crit
A roll of 8-9 meant a single crit
A roll of 10-11 meant two crits
A roll of 12 meant head/limb blown off, or three crits

The MG's advantage was that firing them generated no heat, so you got as many extra crit chances as you had MGs, but each individual MG wasn't any better or worse at critting than any other (direct-fire, see below) weapon.

If any weapons in TT could be called "crit weapons" or "crit seekers", it was missiles: You rolled to hit once for all missiles from a launcher, but for hit location you rolled once for every five LRMs and individually for SRMS - this greatly increased your chances of hitting an exposed section and getting to roll on the critical hit table, potentially ending the fight.

[Rippthrough]

Mazzyplz, on 19 August 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

you must be some kind of genius;

no it couldn't have.
been piloting this mech for over 6 months

http://i60.photobuck...zpse6cb1b00.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps435e40d3.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps699a95b2.png
http://i60.photobuck...zpsaab4775a.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps4076943e.png
http://i60.photobuck...zpsca9195c4.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps4b6f94ec.jpg
http://i60.photobuck...zps672625a3.jpg
http://i60.photobuck...zps5fe37066.png
http://i60.photobuck...zpsfdc1afbd.png

lots more where this came from

elo well set in, kdr for this particular mech peaked on 1.18 which is halfway decent. (still the worst among my mechbays, but not too relevant)

i can kill any type of jagermech (except the new machinegun-boat one apparently) and any kind of mech without exception.
including the uber cheese builds of the past, 4ppc, twin ac20.

now that 12v12 is in my damage output has lowered because of the team work so i dont cap the screens so often but the dueling basically any mech is largely the same


very nice of you to be condescending to me and implying im a total noob though, nice try at undermining my opinion. this is my weakest build but that doesn't mean "a jenner with flamers harhar derpherp duhuhuh *DROOL*!!!"



what are you saying, that i shouldnt field this build because you don't approve of it? ha.
please tell me what i should be piloting, my master!!!!!!! it obviously doesn't matter what i like to run just what you like or what is "competitive" i guess. is that it?

could you maybe give me a list of what mechs are approved? maybe you could post a tier list on the player help forums, that should go well!

....more and more rambling ***** due to inferiority complex...

I'm not telling you what you should pilot at all, what I am telling you, is that combo, regardless of how well you pilot it, would get taken down by damned near every mech in the game with a decent pilot in it.
So why ***** about being taken by machineguns?

Nice rant though. 9/10, I'm afraid I have to take away that last point due to being mentally unstable.

Edited by Rippthrough, 20 August 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[M0rpHeu5]

Just stop Ignoring the machine guns, they are viable now, isn't that what we wanted?

[Ensaine]

So, I see a few people used my semi-successful numbers to advantage, yet, seemed to omit the difficulty/challenge part.

In the 6MG Jaeger, you just don't willy nilly walk up to any mech and start shooting, as the Jaeger will lose to most heavies and assaults, even to a good amount of mediums with some good pop. Hell, I've been taken down by 2 lights in my Jaeger.

120m is VERY close guys.

Also, I have many mechs that I KILL 6MG Jaeger's with. Jaegers are actually quite easy to kill, even the DD with FF......against most any two mechs, it's a fast death. 3-4 good volleys of LRM's = near dead Jaeger.

There's just so many ways to quickly down a 6MG Jaeger. I do it all the time, and I must say, if you think they're too much, Moar Training Grounds 4 U.

Most 6MG Jaegers are played, like mine, as a support mech. I let my heavies/assaults go in, and once they gain the love of the enemy, I pop out and lay into them. Sometimes, it's best to cut and run, but, no, he stands there facing my Atlas buddy in a Dragon, while I flay his back, where he could have hauled gear to possibly fight again.

If a 6MG Jaeger is constantly on the move, it IS a PIA for the MG Jaeger to keep the crosshairs on the enemy. consistently.

It does take strong piloting skills to play one. Period. A drop buddy of mine tried one, but, as he's not as tight of a pilot as I am, he ended up going strong longer range ballistics on his DD.

In the end, the big kills and big damage come from those of you who sit still and brawl in a slow mech. Most of you big slow stompy robots need some practice in defeating/equalizing a lighter mech's dance of death.

But, as many of you die in a match, and immediately quit, not spectating, well, what can you say? Not much.

Not any player can build a MG DD and play him well.

If a MG DD beat you, you either:
A: stood there like a moomah OR
B: were already stripped of your armor
C: See both A and B

Opening up on a fresh mech with 6MG is about useless, and the equivalent of watching paint dry, until armor begins to slip off. I pack 2 ERLL's to strip the armor. Having so little heatsinks, believe me, we gotta watch the heat. If you let me strip off your armor, because you decided to Rambo over San Juan Hill, where I can begin the MG assault, you are going to be dead.

Most of my kills come from the solo, I know better, go it alone types, in a big slow 'insert mech here' that a team mate had peppered with some LRM's... a few shots at range from the LL's, and I charge at your face with the guns. If you're dumb enough to be in a slow mech all alone, I'll call for one or two salvo's of LRM's as I'm heading to my victim.

If there's an ECM buddy of the enemy mech, or a this just in reinforcement, as I just charged his face, not knowing he had a friend, I'm most likely dead.

So, please. The 500 damage, and 3 kills average, is when I DO make it mostly or all the way through a match, which is about 50% of the time.

And yes, I look for you stragglers. Keep going it alone. I look for the Rambo's too. charge over the hill, my teammates are already stripping you, all I gotta do is gun.

6MG Jaegers. Easy to kill. Unforgiving on dumb or inexperienced players. Did I say easy to kill?

Edited by Ensaine, 20 August 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Selfish, on 19 August 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

What exactly makes you say that MGs are suddenly over the top when striking unarmored components? They do damage now, sure, but what weapon combinations do they OUTDPS? My math may be a little rusty, but single-alpha 3x UAC/5, 4x AC/5s, and 4x AC/2s still deal more DPS than 4x MG versus unarmored components. Those are all ballistic burst/DPS hybrids that have vastly more range and still maintain much more of that damage against armor.

BIG difference you forget to mention:
3x UAC/5 is 27 tons and 3 heat. It is hotter and does NOT out DPS 54 MGs.
4x AC/5 is 32 tons and 4 heat. It is hotter and does not out DPS 64 MGs.
4x AC/2 is 24 tons and 4 heat. It is hotter and does not out DPS 48 MGs.

In BattleTech (and MechWarrior); Damage, Weight, Heat, Mass (Crits), Ammo, and Range are the balancing factors among weapons.

[stjobe]

Hotthedd, on 20 August 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

BIG difference you forget to mention:
3x UAC/5 is 27 tons and 3 heat. It is hotter and does NOT out DPS 54 MGs.
4x AC/5 is 32 tons and 4 heat. It is hotter and does not out DPS 64 MGs.
4x AC/2 is 24 tons and 4 heat. It is hotter and does not out DPS 48 MGs.

In BattleTech (and MechWarrior); Damage, Weight, Heat, Mass (Crits), Ammo, and Range are the balancing factors among weapons.

Highlighted the most important difference between the AC/2 and MG.

In TT, they did equal damage, the AC/2 paying for its extremely long range with tonnage, the MG being compensated for its extremely short range with no heat. They both did 2 damage vs 'mechs.

In MWO, the 6-ton AC/2 has the firepower of four MGs (2 tons) against armoured targets. Is this bad? Consider this: Four Medium Lasers weigh four tons, yet have the same damage output as the 14-ton AC/20. Or to put it another way; the 14-ton AC/20 has the firepower of four MLs (4 tons). They even have the same range.

Due to the way PGI translated the AC/2 to MWO, it pays with both tonnage and heat for its range. The MG in MWO is a special case because our beloved lead dev is dead-set on the notion that it's supposed to be a "crit weapon". Since there's no such thing in TT, all bets are off as to comparison with the other weapons.

All we can do is state the facts: Before the IS damage buff, a MG kill was a fluke. After the buff, they are actually useful; even dangerous when damage is breached. This means that a couple of light chassis variants and one medium chassis variant gets to go from "totally useless" to "not a waste of time". I say that is a good thing. Variety is the spice of life, even in the BattleTech Universe.

Personally, I greatly prefer a useful and situationally dangerous weapon to one that is a total waste of tonnage.

Let's hope they can give similar treatments to Flamers, LB-10X, LRM-5s, and SRM-2s - all weapons that are in greater need of buffs than the MG is of nerfs.

Edited by stjobe, 20 August 2013 - 06:10 AM.