293 replies to this topic

[Drasari]

You have to consider the sacrifices of the weapon and not just he core damage per second.

IE, close range.

You have to consider the sacrifices of the weapon and not just he core damage per second.

IE, close range.

[Training Instructor]

I still can't figure out the logic of not just having the machine guns do regular damage. The crit buff for internals makes no sense, as any weapon shooting unarmored internals should be annihilating the components.

[Autobot9000]

Increased crit chance is just nonesense. The amount of bullets from an MG alone suffice for having a higher chance to crit per time already. It's unjustified and cheesy, so yes I support the OP.

[One Medic Army]

Autobot9000, on 11 August 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Increased crit chance is just nonesense. The amount of bullets from an MG alone suffice for having a higher chance to crit per time already. It's unjustified and cheesy, so yes I support the OP.

You sem to be mis-understanding how crits currently work.
Critting a component deals damage to that component, components have HP.
Most have 10, Gauss has 3 as does ECM, and the AC/20 has 18.
A single crit from a single MG round without all the crit-boosting deals 0.1dmg. After the crit boosting I think it's a higher chance and somewhere around 1.2 dmg per bullet.

Compared to a PPC which crits for 10 and knocks out anything it crits in a single go.

MGs without the increased crit chance and damage were one of the worst weapons in the game to try and crit with.

[Corwin Vickers]

Someone said MGs are hitscan, that's not true is it? They seem to have drop, lead, and significant travel time to me.

Also, you have to figure that those instant annihilations you are seeing are ammo explosions. They still do pathetic damage to Internal struture, they just do good damage against items. As most Atlas's don't have much more than a couple of medium lasers in their CT it still takes forever for machine guns to core an Atlas.

If you have ammo in your CT you're asking for it imo.

Also, when was the last time you saw someone with case? I only run case on my gauss mechs. Most people probaby don't even know what it is.

I also stick ammo in my head though. I figure if they are shooting you in the face you have other problems.

[Sephlock]

THE CRYING!

Now taking bets on how long before the tsunami of tears triggers a heavy handed nerf that renders all the "critseeker" weapons useless.

[rdmx]

Drasari, on 11 August 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

You have to consider the sacrifices of the weapon and not just he core damage per second.
IE, close range.

Let's try using some lateral thinking then. Try extrapolating that to a light v light battle.

You've got a mech (spider-5k) pumping out more sustainable hitscan damage than the JR7-F. As soon as a component comes open, all of sudden the 5k is now doing 3x damage to that component.

The spider's shoddy hit detection exacerbates the issue. It's frustrating to play against.

The video exists only to prove that it's doing as much DPS as I said it was. I'm in no way advocating that you stand still in front of an Atlas. I don't own a Spider, neither was I going to purchase one for the sake of demonstration.

Quote

Someone said MGs are hitscan, that's not true is it? They seem to have drop, lead, and significant travel time to me.

Try it at 200m in training grounds. I was confused myself because of the projectiles, but it's very evident that it deals the damage before the fake projectiles ever hit.

Edited by rdmx, 11 August 2013 - 02:03 AM.

[Sephlock]

YOU SEE, GUYS? I'M LIKE NOSTRA-*******-DAMUS!

... actually, I'm more like Cassandra.

[stjobe]

Corwin Vickers, on 11 August 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

Someone said MGs are hitscan, that's not true is it? They seem to have drop, lead, and significant travel time to me.

That's just the graphics - the actual damage (and aiming, most importantly) is wholly independent of the graphics.

Corwin Vickers, on 11 August 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

Also, you have to figure that those instant annihilations you are seeing are ammo explosions. They still do pathetic damage to Internal struture, they just do good damage against items. As most Atlas's don't have much more than a couple of medium lasers in their CT it still takes forever for machine guns to core an Atlas.

Not true.
1. It's not ammo explosions, it's destruction of Internal Structure.
2. A single MG after the patch does almost 3 DPS (2.78) to Internal Structure. That's not "pathetic".
3. Four of them do almost 12 DPS; that's enough to quickly dismantle any Internal Structure.

Corwin Vickers, on 11 August 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

If you have ammo in your CT you're asking for it imo.

Ammo only explodes 10% of the time, zero Internal Structure kills 100% of the time.

[Khobai]

Machine Guns are a little too strong now but I wouldnt say theyre cheesy. And given the choice between having machine guns that are worthless or Machine Guns that are a little too strong Id rather have machine guns that are a little too strong.

[Thecure]

rdmx, on 10 August 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Please abuse the ever loving **** out of this so PGI sees how ridiculous this is. Go run a 4 man spider-5k lance and focus fire your targets. God forbid, maybe we'll see a hotfix.

So, thats what I've been doing wrong... Was running a lance of 4 D-DCs or 4 AC40 Jaggers, focusing fire and targets went down so slowly. I'll take my spider asap.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

rdmx, on 11 August 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

The spider's shoddy hit detection exacerbates the issue. It's frustrating to play against.

This is the only real issue here.

Do people complain about the Jagermech MG builds? How about the Cicada MG builds? Sure they're fun (the MG has long had one of the best animation and sound packages in the game), and now they are effective under the right circumstances (hitting breached targets), but that just makes the MG useful, not overpowered.

It'***** detection, which is especially bad for Spiders, that is the real issue here. PGI is aware of the hit detection problems, and they are working on a fix for it. In one of the recent Twitch streams Garth even mentioned something that might be one of the root issues (some kind of query loop that also contributes to lag spikes and system resource usage).

Once hit detection is working again I think this whole problem will pretty much just go away.

[Unbound Inferno]

stjobe, on 10 August 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

As you say, MGs have 1 DPS vs armour, roughly 3 DPS vs Internal Structure, and a bit over 11 DPS vs Internal Components.

This may seem like too much, but it's balanced pretty nicely by three things:
1. The low vs-armour damage, meaning something else has to breach the armour before the MG gets good
2. The limited range
3. The spread on the MG. The only weapon in the game that has a random cone of fire.

That last one is important, because it means all of that 3 DPS won't hit the location you're aiming at.

I have been fighting for a viable MG since closed beta, and I'm very happy that it is finally here. The MG isn't a waste of tonnage any more, it's actually a great finisher weapon, and playing e.g. the SDR-5K as a scavenger will net you a pretty substantial kill record if you're being smart about it.

I like where the MG is at now; it fulfils its role as a weapon for ballistic lights and it's even usable as a backup/cooldown weapon on larger 'mechs. No more is it counter-productive to mount MGs.

In my book, PGI actually got it right this time.

And yes, it kills 'mechs with breached locations rather quickly - but then again, so does just about any other weapon.

You are mistaken on the Spread.

Its not a random cone of fire - its a wide-area of damage. It hits everything in that area for that damage.

Its part of PGI's failed spread damage mechanic.

[Fragger56]

MGs aren't hitscan, they work more like a garden hose in actual games rather than the apparent hitscan you get in training. The higher your lateral velocity relative to your target, the less the MGs hit.

Also, to all you people whining about spiders that you can't hit, mount some LB-10xs they will clean up those close range spiders right quick, as the LB-10s have the EXACT SAME internal damage transfer mechanics as the MGs and are now actually decent at their job.

And a final note to all current and future balance whiners:
LEARN TO ADAPT OR YOU WILL FOREVER SUCK AT THIS GAME.

All the good player groups in MWO start playing with the weapons that end up being "the new hotness" a week before the patch drops, they still kick *** pre-buff/nerf and kick even more *** once the balance patch drops cause everyone knows what the heck is going on.
On the other hand all the clueless people go OMG MY PWNCANNON STOPPED WORKING NERF EVERYTHING!!!!111oneoneeleven

Also, damage spread/CoF won't do **** to keep the good players from stomping the not as good.
I've been running a 3x LB-10x 3x MLAS Muromets since the tuesday patch, I've lost about 4 games total of the 40 or so I've played this week and even managed to do 700+ damage and get 3 kills and 4 assists on the one game I had on ALPINE, WITH SHOTGUNS.
CoF can't keep the good players down, we learn to play around it.


Edit:more detail on the MG hitreg

Edited by Fragger56, 11 August 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[Jman5]

Something that most of you seem to be forgetting is that all weapons can crit. Machine gun just has a slightly higher chance to crit. This new crit damage feature is a buff to every single weapon.

Let's also not forget that the machine guns has an abysmal 120 meter optimal range. It's important for balance to have short range specialists actually be stronger when they can get in short range. Otherwise what the hell is the point of running anything but long range weapons?

My biggest beef isn't the machine gun explicitely, but the mere fact that everything is dying faster now. We should be slowing down combat not speeding it up.

Edited by Jman5, 11 August 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[Mizore]

rdmx, on 10 August 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Now, combine that with a swarm pack of unhittable Spider-5Ks, and you're taking out mechs RIDICULOUSLY quick. Thank god this doesn't work on armor.

I think the main problem is the unhittable Spider, not the MGs.

And as some else said before... you need your team to open up the enemy mechs, or else you're still quite useless with your MGs.

rdmx, on 10 August 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

EDIT: Don't get me wrong here. I think their damage against armour is fine, but their damage straight to structure could be tweaked down a bit.

Maybe a little... but first let's see how it'll be when HSR is working fine again.

stjobe, on 11 August 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

Not true.
1. It's not ammo explosions, it's destruction of Internal Structure.
2. A single MG after the patch does almost 3 DPS (2.78) to Internal Structure. That's not "pathetic".
3. Four of them do almost 12 DPS; that's enough to quickly dismantle any Internal Structure.

Pure theory craft... you have to find mechs where the torso armor is gone, you have to get within a range of ~90m and you have to uphold a constant fire.

Now take a Spider 5K and try this on the battlefield by yourself... oh and have fun getting killed despite the messed up hitboxes

Edited by Mizore, 11 August 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Sharp Spikes]

Mizore, on 11 August 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

... let's see how it'll be when HSR is working fine again.

Absolutely agree. Balancing weapons with half-working hit detection is a waste of time and effort.

But even now pair of spiders or cicadas with 4 mgs each are capable of near-instant destruction of any unarmored body part on any mech. I predict true MGapocalypse when (or is it better to say "if"?) PGI will fix problems with hit detection.

[General Taskeen]

Fragger56, on 11 August 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

MGs aren't hitscan,

Wrong. As someone who has tested MG's since Closed Beta, i can assure you that they are a hitscan weapon. They are literally a reprogrammed laser with a "bullet" graphical affect. The damage will 'appear' on the Mech Doll before the bullet graphics even touch the Mech.

And no LB 10-X are still horrible and continue to be horrible until they are overhauled. If you can aim at all, you can leg those spiders with with an AC/10 for pin point damage. IF you have played any previous Mech Warrior game, you would understand how insanely bad an LB 10-X is in comparison to the competitive/balanced LB-X guns from previous titles.

[Universe Man]

Nobody uses mg's, which pretty much means they aren't overpowered. lrm's, on the other hand...they are out of hand with 12v play.

[FupDup]

If people really must insist that MGs are "cheesy" right now, how about let's compromise by having two different manufacturers for MGs?

Basically, one model (perhaps "Scattergun Light") would be low damage, high-crit sort of like what PGI is fixated on right now. This model would probably end up doing less direct damage than what we have now, but would be better for those who think crit seeking is useful.

The second model ("Gatling Gun 20mm" or something like that), though, would be high damage (and no CoF) and would never deal critical hits. Ever. This model is designed to suit people who like weapons that kill robots (particularly those with armor still on).

Edited by FupDup, 11 August 2013 - 09:45 AM.