96 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

Marmon Rzohr, on 11 August 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

+1

Lights (all mechs really) need better rewards for objectives.

Lights should only get something extra when they perform their primary task of scouting.

[Ngamok]

Go go Urbanmech to go hand in hand with the Orion next month. Make it happen. Otherwise I agree with the OP. I like Mediums and Heavies the most. I do not play lights as it is not my style and I am terribad with them. I do own a Jenner-D(s) and a Raven-3L and soon to be a few Locusts. But for people that like to pilot lights, they should have many options like I do.

Firestarter would make a good addition as well as the Urbanmech. Did I mention Urbanmech already? Urbanmech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ngamok, on 17 August 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Go go Urbanmech to go hand in hand with the Orion next month. Make it happen. Otherwise I agree with the OP. I like Mediums and Heavies the most. I do not play lights as it is not my style and I am terribad with them. I do own a Jenner-D(s) and a Raven-3L and soon to be a few Locusts. But for people that like to pilot lights, they should have many options like I do.

Firestarter would make a good addition as well as the Urbanmech. Did I mention Urbanmech already? Urbanmech.

+1 for Firestarter. I want this mech so badly.

[Ngamok]

Taemien, on 17 August 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Forgot to add this other option to my post above.

I don't see anything wrong with the speed cap. To be quite honest, light mechs in BattleTech rarely see over 130kph, with only a few models able to push 200kph with MASC.

What I do see an issue with is Heavies and Assaults reaching the speeds that they do. And in some circumstances Mediums even. If a Catapult can reach 85kph rather easily. A 96kph Commando is screwed. I'd like to see stricter restrictions on heavier mechs. Even limiting Assaults to the engine size they come stock with (you can go smaller, and slower, but not larger and faster).

If the fastest that Assault mechs could normally go is 53.5kph with speed tweak and the Awesomes (some of the variants) at 71kph, then lights (and mediums) would have a better chance with smaller engine sizes and more weaponry.

I sent Paul a PM basically saying that the Elite Efficiencies for Heavies and Assaults for Speed Tweak should be removed and repalced with soemthing else. Of course we'd need to brain storm that and make sure it wasn't something game breaking. Doing this would indeed help the Mediums and Lights in the speed department.

[Taemien]

Ngamok, on 17 August 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

I sent Paul a PM basically saying that the Elite Efficiencies for Heavies and Assaults for Speed Tweak should be removed and repalced with soemthing else. Of course we'd need to brain storm that and make sure it wasn't something game breaking. Doing this would indeed help the Mediums and Lights in the speed department.

That's not enough. Adding 4-7kph to a mech isn't going to destroy a light mech. So removing it doesn't help light mechs either.

[Ngamok]

Taemien, on 17 August 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

That's not enough. Adding 4-7kph to a mech isn't going to destroy a light mech. So removing it doesn't help light mechs either.

Every little bit helps. The faster I can get around corner from those fast Heavies, the better. Dragons with 360s in them run at 106.x with speed tweak. That's only 34 KPH slower than the 140 cap. Quickdraws as well.

[Khobai]

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Do you play a Cicada? Because frankly you are full of it. A Commando doesn't need to run a 250+ rated engine! The lower the weight the lower the required engine to reach identical speeds.

I am sorry that your obvious bias towards the Cicada has led to your inability to look objectively at the facts. But youre wrong. Again, these are the facts: the Cicada has 100 points more armor (which you ignored). More tonnage and hardpoints for weapons, despite having to spend proportionally more tonnage for its engine. And a higher max speed than the Commando even when both mechs have max engines.

And to clarify, the reason the Commando loses out from not being able to use a 250 engine is that it cant have 10 internal heatsinks. That means two of the heatsinks have to be external. On certain variants of the commando, like the 2D, that means you cant take ES, FF, DHS, ECM, and XL all at the same time. Which again is a disadvantage for the Commando which the Cicada doesnt have.

One of the core principles of MWO is that lighter mechs need to be able to outrun heavier mechs. The Jenner and Cicada are two mechs that very much violate that principle by going faster than mechs lighter than they are.

Quote

That's not enough. Adding 4-7kph to a mech isn't going to destroy a light mech. So removing it doesn't help light mechs either.

The obvious alternative would be a damage reduction skill for heavies/assaults instead of speed tweak.

[MonkeyCheese]

Taemien, on 17 August 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Forgot to add this other option to my post above.

I don't see anything wrong with the speed cap. To be quite honest, light mechs in BattleTech rarely see over 130kph, with only a few models able to push 200kph with MASC.

What I do see an issue with is Heavies and Assaults reaching the speeds that they do. And in some circumstances Mediums even. If a Catapult can reach 85kph rather easily. A 96kph Commando is screwed. I'd like to see stricter restrictions on heavier mechs. Even limiting Assaults to the engine size they come stock with (you can go smaller, and slower, but not larger and faster).

If the fastest that Assault mechs could normally go is 53.5kph with speed tweak and the Awesomes (some of the variants) at 71kph, then lights (and mediums) would have a better chance with smaller engine sizes and more weaponry.

I think the speed cap needs to be raised "when possible" but I do agree it gets crazy out there with the matchmaker when my mastered fast assault, heavy and medium mechs are dropped with and against slow trial light new people.
Hell the current trial mechs are the 2x raven 81kph and the 3c cicada 113kph my non lights with speed can walk all over them and also keep pace with tricked out light mechs.

mastered 9m aws 85kph.
elite 1n dragon 106kph
1x blackjack 106kph, 116 when i do speed tweak it
yenlowang 95kph untweaked
cent 9d 123kph untweaked
mastered 7m treb 110kph

I agree with khobai, its a little wrong that mechs with more firepower and armor can reach such speeds, I know the way it is aint gonna change for speeds for mechs larger than lights but this and the lack of dedicated light roles/benifits is why lights are fairly rare outside of the 4man light groups usually. I have seen countless 8man and 12 man pugs where there are 0-2 lights on a team.

[Shadey99]

Khobai, on 17 August 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

More crud.

You sir, are a moron. You ignored my whole point and bluntly continued ranting about a need for more speed over anything larger. They have nearly identical amounts of tonnage to use for weapons! A cicada does not massively outgun a Commando! What can you not understand about that? 9.5 vs 8 tons is a whole 1.5 tons of space different between them. Are you that concerned about 1.5 tons more weapons?

A slower Cicada is a seriously dead Cicada. Just like any light mech, they also cannot take the abuse of slower machines. Cicadas are also huge compared to Jenners and Ravens. Size and speed make up for the minor lack of armor. Nerfing the Cicada is a horrible idea to anyone who is thinking straight. Especially when a stock Cicada is 129 kph machine.

Which goes for everyone else who wants to nerf speeds. The game has a perfectly reasonable cap on speed built-in. It's called tonnage. Look at the chart one page back. A 265 standard engine is already the size of a Locust! A 250 XL is 12.5 tons. A maxed armor ES commando is 7.1 tons. If it did run a XL 250 the machine without even having guns is now 19.6 tons! Even with needing heatsinks the XL 200 is 3 tons lighter. You also run into the law of diminishing returns in regards to speed, so that a 20 ton mech like a Locust with a 200 XL hits 162 kph (picked because it perfectly matches the Clan 'Dasher' mech).

[Lightfoot]

Well, the Pretty Baby is really a Light mech disguised as an Assault. You knew that right?

[Khobai]

Quote

They have nearly identical amounts of tonnage to use for weapons!

Except that they dont have identical tonnage for weapons. You yourself even admitted the Cicada has more tonnage for weapons. Therefore negating any legitimate point you might have had. All while still continuing to ignore the fact the Cicada has 100 points more armor.

Quote

A slower Cicada is a seriously dead Cicada.

And a slower Commando is seriously dead Commando, because it has 100 points less armor. Funny how you seem to grasp the concept when it applies to the Cicada but not when it applies to the Commando.

The only way the Commando will ever have a place in the game is if its one of the fastest mechs in the game which currently it is not.

[Shadey99]

Khobai, on 17 August 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Except that they dont have identical tonnage for weapons. You yourself even admitted the Cicada has more tonnage for weapons. Therefore negating any legitimate point you might have had. All while still continuing to ignore the fact the Cicada has 100 points more armor.

1.5 tons is not a real difference in weapons between mechs that are 15 tons different in actual tonnage (ironic how those numbers work out isn't it?). Especially when neither mech actually has enough hard points to make any real difference in armament between them.

Khobai, on 17 August 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

And a slower Commando is seriously dead Commando, because it has 100 points less armor. Funny how you seem to grasp the concept when it applies to the Cicada but not when it applies to the Commando.

The only way the Commando will ever have a place in the game is if its one of the fastest mechs in the game which currently it is not.

A commando is a tiny speck and equally as hard to hit as a Spider (have you missed all those threads?!?). A Cicada is more than three times as big! Cicadas as is are considered way too easy to kill (hence they are hunted by Quickdraws, Dragons, Victors, etc, etc) No Heavy or Assault seriously tries to hunt lights (deter, drive off, smash when they have to), but they will a nice big target like a Cicada.

I drive mechs of every class, but Cicadas in no way need nerfs.I will also have 3 Locusts come Oct 15th. I do not think I need a nerf of heavier fast mechs to make them viable.

[Taemien]

Ngamok, on 17 August 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Every little bit helps. The faster I can get around corner from those fast Heavies, the better. Dragons with 360s in them run at 106.x with speed tweak. That's only 34 KPH slower than the 140 cap. Quickdraws as well.

Its not helping however. That is the point I am making.

Khobai, on 17 August 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

The obvious alternative would be a damage reduction skill for heavies/assaults instead of speed tweak.

This isn't about buffing the already alright Heavies and Assault however.

The point I am making is I don't think Heavies or Assaults need to be moving as fast as they are. Some light mechs move at 80-90kph and that is considered slow, even for some heavy mechs. Thats where the problem is. Mechs like the Urbanmech are dead on arrival because of this stuff.

I propose that Assaults are limited to the engine size the variant comes with. You can mount lower engine ratings, XL or standard, but not higher. Heavies are restricted to x1.1 their engine rating, this way mechs like the Dragon are limited in speed to 98kph with speed tweak opposed to 106.9. Its not a huge nerf, but one that will hold them in line. A Jagermech will be limited to 78kph vs 86kph.

Meanwhile I'm on the fence about mediums. Could restrict them to x1.2 or leave them be. I'd like to see how this change affects lights and mediums first before trying to limit mediums.

For people who already bought these engines and installed them in their mechs, the engines would be gone and refunded full cbill price (this way the can buy a more appropriate engine, or rebuy the engine and put it back in the mech it came with, as some use the same engine across multiple machines). I think that would be fair.

[MonkeyCheese]

Taemien, on 17 August 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Its not helping however. That is the point I am making.



This isn't about buffing the already alright Heavies and Assault however.

The point I am making is I don't think Heavies or Assaults need to be moving as fast as they are. Some light mechs move at 80-90kph and that is considered slow, even for some heavy mechs. Thats where the problem is. Mechs like the Urbanmech are dead on arrival because of this stuff.

I propose that Assaults are limited to the engine size the variant comes with. You can mount lower engine ratings, XL or standard, but not higher. Heavies are restricted to x1.1 their engine rating, this way mechs like the Dragon are limited in speed to 98kph with speed tweak opposed to 106.9. Its not a huge nerf, but one that will hold them in line. A Jagermech will be limited to 78kph vs 86kph.

Meanwhile I'm on the fence about mediums. Could restrict them to x1.2 or leave them be. I'd like to see how this change affects lights and mediums first before trying to limit mediums.

For people who already bought these engines and installed them in their mechs, the engines would be gone and refunded full cbill price (this way the can buy a more appropriate engine, or rebuy the engine and put it back in the mech it came with, as some use the same engine across multiple machines). I think that would be fair.

Way way too late to be making major changes like that, sure we are still beta, but alienating the player base like that would kill the game.

Working on role warfare and more modules to help light mechs in their scouting roles (like light only modules) is the best way to differentiate the light mechs now, that and actually adding more light mechs and light heros.

[DemonRaziel]

MonkeyCheese, on 18 August 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Way way too late to be making major changes like that, sure we are still beta, but alienating the player base like that would kill the game.

Exactly, but the blame is on PGI alone. They refused to differentiate the pilot trees for various weight categories, they introduced all the modules for all the 'Mechs. They chose the easy (lazy) way as opposed to what was originally planned and this is the result.

[Khobai]

Quote

This isn't about buffing the already alright Heavies and Assault however.

The point I am making is I don't think Heavies or Assaults need to be moving as fast as they are.

The problem isnt that heavies and assaults move as fast as they do. The problem is mediums dont move as fast as they should. These are the current speeds of most mechs now:

Tiny Mechs (20-30 tons) = upto 151kph
Small Mechs (35-40 tons) = upto 151kph
Medium Mechs (45-60 tons) = 90-115kph (some can go faster but most fall in this range)
Large Mechs (65-80 tons)= 70-85kph
Huge Mechs (85+ tons) = 55-65kph

Its pretty obvious what the problem is. Small mechs go too fast and Medium mechs go too slow. Max speed completely drops off a cliff between 40 and 45 ton for no apparent reason. The speed curve should be way more gradual than it is now.

[Coolant]

Already said it once in this thread, but I'll say it again. Lights have all the love in the world right now. They are tougher to take down than assaults. Repeating the same incident last night as has happened time and time again, a light dances around a group of mechs, many heavies and assaults for about a minute and then escapes (is escape the right word?), YELLOW. No more love! Nerf.

[Shadey99]

Khobai, on 18 August 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Tiny Mechs (20-30 tons) = upto 151kph
Small Mechs (35-40 tons) = upto 151kph
Medium Mechs (45-60 tons) = 90-115kph (some can go faster but most fall in this range)
Large Mechs (65-80 tons)= 70-85kph
Huge Mechs (85+ tons) = 55-65kph

Except they aren't categorized like that, instead it goes:
Light is 20-35 and all can reach ~150 kph in MWO otherwise in BT itself most do 100+ kph and a small handful go over 129 kph.
Medium is 40-55 and (even outside MWO) only a handful are 'fast' (The cicada is the only 40 tonner to travel 129 kph stock for instance) and the rest are typically 97 kph.
Heavies are 60-75 tons typically run in the 60-80 kph range with the odd mech reaching 97 kph.
Assaults are 80-100 tons typically do 50-70 kph with the odd assault running a 400 or 400XL and reaching 80+ kph.

These exceptions all happen to be in mechs PGI is adding to the game right now which distorts things, but even in the 40 ton category the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Assassin (119 kph) is the next fastest after the Cicada, followed by average designs like the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clint (97 kph) or http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sentinel (97 kph)... And all of those beat the slow http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Whitworth (64 kph). If we had more mechs you'd see only a handful are faster than normal.

You beloved Commando, for instance, is a slow striker in the light category @ 97 kph.

Coolant, on 18 August 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Already said it once in this thread, but I'll say it again. Lights have all the love in the world right now. They are tougher to take down than assaults. Repeating the same incident last night as has happened time and time again, a light dances around a group of mechs, many heavies and assaults for about a minute and then escapes (is escape the right word?), YELLOW. No more love! Nerf.

HSR and hit reg in general are messed up, it's not just lights. But since lights are both fast and small your perception is that they are effected more. I had a Yen-Lo earlier that I dropped 2 3xSRM6s (18 missiles twice) into, 6 PPC 'rounds', and 8 Large Lasers into the CT of (only part to blink on the display) using a HGN-733P. He wasn't even red when I died and the HUD clearly told me all my shots hit.

[Taemien]

Khobai, on 18 August 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

The problem isnt that heavies and assaults move as fast as they do. The problem is mediums dont move as fast as they should. These are the current speeds of most mechs now:

Tiny Mechs (20-30 tons) = upto 151kph
Small Mechs (35-40 tons) = upto 151kph
Medium Mechs (45-60 tons) = 90-115kph (some can go faster but most fall in this range)
Large Mechs (65-80 tons)= 70-85kph
Huge Mechs (85+ tons) = 55-65kph

Its pretty obvious what the problem is. Small mechs go too fast and Medium mechs go too slow. Max speed completely drops off a cliff between 40 and 45 ton for no apparent reason. The speed curve should be way more gradual than it is now.

Do you realize how much a light has to sacrifice to hit those speeds? This is the problem they have. They HAVE to be that fast to survive. What I'm proposing makes it so they don't have to. They can get by going 90-120kph and still mount respectable weaponry. And the slower ones like the Urbanmech and Panther will be capable of being viable.

Right now if they add a Panther, the quickest it can be is 99.3 with speed tweak. Thats effectively dead on arrival as even an Awesome can reach that speed. Or damn near it.

And it doesn't seem right that the first thing a light mech pilot has to do when getting a new light mech is to stuff the biggest engine in there. When an Atlas or Stalker can get away with using their stock engine and remain perfectly viable.

Coolant, on 18 August 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Already said it once in this thread, but I'll say it again. Lights have all the love in the world right now. They are tougher to take down than assaults. Repeating the same incident last night as has happened time and time again, a light dances around a group of mechs, many heavies and assaults for about a minute and then escapes (is escape the right word?), YELLOW. No more love! Nerf.

This is a bug. There is no special code in for lights that says "If going this speed, apply .5 damage taken multiplier" You're the kind of person that complains about the devs never speaking to us yet never read the QnA's. Had you read them you wouldn't have made this response. Go back and at least read 40-44.

[MonkeyCheese]

Coolant, on 18 August 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

Already said it once in this thread, but I'll say it again. Lights have all the love in the world right now. They are tougher to take down than assaults. Repeating the same incident last night as has happened time and time again, a light dances around a group of mechs, many heavies and assaults for about a minute and then escapes (is escape the right word?), YELLOW. No more love! Nerf.

You are a pathetic troll complaining about OBVIOUS BUGS THAT ARE CLEARLY NOT INTENDED AND WILL BE FIXED IN TIME please get out of this thread and go complain and cry your tears in the patch feedback section. People here are actually having meaningful discussions about light mechs and their place in this game as well as the needed differences between 20-40tons.

Shadey99, on 18 August 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

You beloved Commando, for instance, is a slow striker in the light category @ 97 kph.

I have said it elsewhere but I still think the 20 to 25 ton tiny mechs need to be able to ignore the 10 minimum heat sink rule to make better use of their critical space and very limited tonnage left over for gear.

The flea and locust will need the largest engines possible to make use of their hardpoints and match and eventually one day out run the larger lights and their armor is pitiful so slow means death. As for the commando to really make it work best in its striker role with all those missile hard points saving the crits and tonnage by taking less than 10 minimum heat sinks is needed and it gives so much more possibilities to commando builds just like we had back in closed beta before the 10 heat sink rule was implemented.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 18 August 2013 - 11:55 AM.