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Kuritan Mechs


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#61 Strum Wealh

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:20 PM

View PostArcadies, on 27 November 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:


The Highlander doesn't even appear in the unit tables for Steiner or Davion in the War of 3039. It does for Kurita units.

And Hollis wasn't producing new construction units. They were refurbs of destroyed Highlanders. Again, after the Helm Data Core, Hollis lost the license. StarCorp was only producing less than a dozen Highlanders a year from mid 3030s to 3057. And this is coming off Highlanders being wiped out in the Succession Wars with Hollis only resurrecting a few here and there. At 3039, adding in new production, existing, and Hollis restored Highlanders, there were probably less than 100 in the hands of all houses combined outside Kurita.

Whereas the DCMS was gifted with several hundred Highlanders from ComStar. These, along with Chargers and Hatamotos comprised AT LEAST a quarter to a third of all assault mechs in the DCMS A* rated regiments in the War of 3039. All Genyosha regiments, all Ghost regiments, all Ryuken regiments were A* rated.

The Highlander appeared in more significant numbers in the DCMS forces in 3039 due to ComStar's involvement, but they were not so widespread by any means.
In fact, the Highlanders would have represented, on average, ~11.1% of the Assault 'Mechs received from ComStar (where 11.1% is the 2D6 probability of getting the result of 5 on the Draconis Combine Special Random 'Mech Assignment Table presented on page 146 of War of 3039) and would have appeared with (on average) the same degree of frequency as the Hatamoto-Ku.

On top of that, very few of the lances in any of the A* regiments would have had more than one ComStar-gifted 'Mech (one in 6 of such lances would have had two such 'Mechs), with the remainder of such lances (that is, the remaining 2-3 'Mechs) being made up of more-common, lower-tech machines.

Quote

When randomly determining lance composition, the controlling player should use the Random Unit Assignment Table: Draconis Combine. When generating A* lances, he may choose to consult the Random ’Mech Assignment Table: Draconis Combine Special to determine a portion of each lance. In this case, the controlling player should roll 1D6 before randomly determining any particular lance’s composition. On a result of 1–5, he may roll once per lance on the Draconis Combine Special table, while a 6 allows him to roll twice per lance. For the rest of the lance, the player must use the normal Draconis Combine assignment table. The controlling player may do this for every A* lance he intends to field.

(Source: War of 3039, pg. 146)

If every one of those 19 regiments (2 Genyosha regiments + 12 Ghost regiments + 5 listed Ryuken regiments) is composed of 180 'Mechs (being extremely generous), the A* regiments would have a combined total of 3420 BattleMechs.
No more than half of those (e.g. two 'Mechs per lance - and, again, being extremely generous) would be ComStar-gifted 'Mechs - an upper limit of 1710 BattleMechs from Operation Rosebud.
On average (and according to the unofficial Faction Assignment and Rarity Tables put together by a member of the Master Unit List team), about 10% of those (~171 BattleMechs) would be Assault 'Mechs, with (on average) ~11.1% of those (~19 BattleMechs) being Highlanders.
(We could even be extremely generous yet again and say that a full third of the 'Mechs from Operation Rosebud were Assault 'Mechs (because the DCMS traditionally hates Mediums), with ~11.1% of those being Highlanders... which still only yeilds a total of ~63 Highlanders gifted from ComStar.)

With both the HGN-733C and the HGN-733P appearing in 2866 (at the beginning of the Third Succession War) along with the HGN-733 continuing to exist, it is evident that the Hollis facility on Corey (a formerly-Capellan world that has been in FedSuns hands since 3030... and stays there until 3057) was capable of more extensive modification than simply piecing salvaged HGNs back together again (which can only be done a rather limited number of times - especially on a century-plus timescale - before there simply aren't enough salvagable spare parts for even a single Highlander... unless new spare parts for every part of the 'Mech are being actively produced).
And even if the refurbished StarCorps facility on Son Hoa (a world effectively held continuously by the Lyrans from 2596 to 3135) only restarted production in 3037 (about the latest that could still be reasonably considered "mid-3030s"), there would have been ~20-24 new-construction Highlanders (from the "~dozen per year" figure from TRO 3039, and matching the likely upper bound of what the DCMS would have received from ComStar) from that facility by 3039 (with the majortiy of them likely going into Lyran hands and a few going elsewhere)... and about 130-156 new-construction Highlanders from that facility by 3050 (again, with the majortiy of them likely going into Lyran hands).

And there is still no evidence of the Combine having the ability to produce the the chassis on home soil - which still means having to buy or steal them from other parties (two of whom are not overly fond of the DCMS).

All of which reinforces the point: the Highlander as a chassis is most definately not exclusive to the Draconis Combine at this (or any other) point in the BT/MWO timeline.

#62 Kyone Akashi

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 03:40 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 23 November 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Though, the Catapult's common CPLT-C1 model (introduced in 2561) predates (both in-universe and IRL) the CPLT-A1 model (introduced in 2563), and the JagerMech's common JM6-S model (introduced in 2774) predates (both in-universe and IRL) both the JM6-A model (introduced in 2778) and the JM6-B model (introduced in 3043). :angry:

Also (and from an in-universe perspective, rather than the order in which materials were printed IRL), the K-series Jenners predates the C-series; Grace Shiro piloted the prototype for the K-series (which actually lacked CASE, which had been recovered by the Combine in 3036) in 3039 and the production version appeared in 3047, while the first of the C-series did not appear until 3050.
That's why I've been saying that the letters are "all over the place". Sometimes, they may refer to purpose or variant name, other times, they could refer to when they were built in alphabetical order, whilst yet other times it could refer to a House-specific variant of another 'Mech. It may depend on the company that designed them, perhaps?

For example, the CPLT-A, which you say was released after the C, comes without any backup weapons but doubles its LRM payload, so perhaps the "A" actually means "Artillery"? The JM6-A on the other hand is a modified Anti-Air platform (according to Sarna anyways, supposedly trading its AC2s for LRMs), whereas the first version, the JM6-S, could mean Support.
And I've already mentioned some of the Jenners and what their letters could mean in the original post.

We can only guess, but it's a fun game. :D

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 28 November 2013 - 03:48 PM.


#63 Kanatta Jing

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 04:46 PM

Do not forget the true back bone of the Kuritan forces. The dreaded Thorn.

The THE-S model was supplied to the DC by the mysterious Comstar in such vast quanitity that they can now solve all of their problems just by throwing Thorns at them. Many where upgraded to the THE-T variant.

What is more it belongs to a tonnage catagory that is badly in need of rounding out and won't be complete until the game has a half dozen different chassis of that weight.

#64 Strum Wealh

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostKyone Akashi, on 28 November 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

That's why I've been saying that the letters are "all over the place". Sometimes, they may refer to purpose or variant name, other times, they could refer to when they were built in alphabetical order, whilst yet other times it could refer to a House-specific variant of another 'Mech. It may depend on the company that designed them, perhaps?

For example, the CPLT-A, which you say was released after the C, comes without any backup weapons but doubles its LRM payload, so perhaps the "A" actually means "Artillery"? The JM6-A on the other hand is a modified Anti-Air platform (according to Sarna anyways, supposedly trading its AC2s for LRMs), whereas the first version, the JM6-S, could mean Support.
And I've already mentioned some of the Jenners and what their letters could mean in the original post.

We can only guess, but it's a fun game. :D

Indeed, it is. :(

So, what do you make of the AWS series designations (especially the AWS-8Q, AWS-8T, AWS-8V, and AWS-9M)? ;)

#65 Kyone Akashi

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 28 November 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

So, what do you make of the AWS series designations (especially the AWS-8Q, AWS-8T, AWS-8V, and AWS-9M)? :(
Ouphh... looking at the descriptions, could it be that the Awesome is one example where the lettering actually denotes the order of succession?
  • AWS-8Q - 2665
  • AWS-8R - 2683
  • AWS-8T - 2815
  • AWS-8V - 2980
  • AWS-9M - 3049
  • AWS-9Q - 3057
The switch from "8" to "9" would come when a design change was so significant that it warrants an entirely different designation, whereas different letters within the same number are only minor upgrades or variants.


This would also seem to follow the designation style for the Quickdraw - another 'Mech which was also designed by Technicron:
  • QKD-4G - 2779
  • QKD-4H - 2847
  • QKD-5A - 3002
  • QKD-5K - 3049
  • QKD-5M - 3049
The "odd one out" in this case would be the QKD-C because it has no number whatsoever, but is an upgrade of the QKD-5K. I realise that the C probably stands for the C3 component, but even then I'd have named it QKD-5KC or something like that...

Unlike with the other 'Mechs, I couldn't attach any special meaning to the letters, but when I compared the production dates, this was the most probably explanation I could think of. :D

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 28 November 2013 - 07:26 PM.


#66 Strum Wealh

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 07:48 PM

View PostKyone Akashi, on 28 November 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

Ouphh... looking at the descriptions, could it be that the Awesome is one example where the lettering actually denotes the order of succession?
  • AWS-8Q - 2665
  • AWS-8R - 2683
  • AWS-8T - 2815
  • AWS-8V - 2980
  • AWS-9M - 3049
  • AWS-9Q - 3057
The switch from "8" to "9" would come when a design change was so significant that it warrants an entirely different designation, whereas different letters within the same number are only minor upgrades or variants.



This would also seem to follow the designation style for the Quickdraw - another 'Mech which was also designed by Technicron:
  • QKD-4G - 2779
  • QKD-4H - 2847
  • QKD-5A - 3002
  • QKD-5K - 3049
  • QKD-5M - 3049
The "odd one out" in this case would be the QKD-C because it has no number whatsoever, but is an upgrade of the QKD-5K. I realise that the C probably stands for the C3 component, but even then I'd have named it QKD-5KC or something like that...


Unlike with the other 'Mechs, I couldn't attach any special meaning to the letters, but when I compared the production dates, this was the most probably explanation I could think of. :D

I'd considered that angle, too... but, that begs the question of what happened to the first 16 versions of the AWS-8 series (that is, the 8A through the 8P models), if indeed they existed, or why the series starts at 8Q (if they did not). :(

Surely all of those couldn't have been such abysmal failures as to not go into any sort of production (which, IMO, might be a more reasonable explanation for why there is no record of any AWS-1 through AWS-7 series)?

#67 Strum Wealh

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 07:53 AM

View PostKyone Akashi, on 28 November 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

That's why I've been saying that the letters are "all over the place". Sometimes, they may refer to purpose or variant name, other times, they could refer to when they were built in alphabetical order, whilst yet other times it could refer to a House-specific variant of another 'Mech. It may depend on the company that designed them, perhaps?

For example, the CPLT-A, which you say was released after the C, comes without any backup weapons but doubles its LRM payload, so perhaps the "A" actually means "Artillery"? The JM6-A on the other hand is a modified Anti-Air platform (according to Sarna anyways, supposedly trading its AC2s for LRMs), whereas the first version, the JM6-S, could mean Support.
And I've already mentioned some of the Jenners and what their letters could mean in the original post.

We can only guess, but it's a fun game. :D

And, apparently, the "SP" in HBK-4SP actually stands for... Shawn Phillips! :(

Quote

Captain Shawn Phillips
Commander of House Liao's Phillips' Company of Ling's Battalion, 15th Dracon Regiment, Shawn Phillips is a serious and deadly MechWarrior in his Hunchback, the Retribution. Orphaned at a young age by a Davion counterattack on his home planet of Lincoln V, he was adopted by a sergeant in the repair section of the 15th Dracon Regiment, which was then stationed on Lincoln V for R & R.

Phillips learned BattleMech combat from the ground up, first helping to repair damaged 'Mechs, then rebuilding those destroyed but shipped back from the front. Phillips built his own Hunchback from spares and cannibalized parts, and so the design is unusual. The Type 20 autocannon has been replaced with two SRM six racks (15 shots each) and two arm-mounted medium lasers. This mixed bag of weaponry has caught many opponents by surprise over the years.

(Source: original TRO 3025, pg. 58)


Likewise, the "SB" in the CGR-SB's designation is the initials of its original creator, Stuart Bell.

#68 Kyone Akashi

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 08:30 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 28 November 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

I'd considered that angle, too... but, that begs the question of what happened to the first 16 versions of the AWS-8 series (that is, the 8A through the 8P models), if indeed they existed, or why the series starts at 8Q (if they did not). :(
Surely all of those couldn't have been such abysmal failures as to not go into any sort of production (which, IMO, might be a more reasonable explanation for why there is no record of any AWS-1 through AWS-7 series)?
Perhaps the first series of numbers is always various design studies and prototypes that is continued until the manufacturer is satisfied, explaining why the final production model starts with an 8 in this case.

As for the lettering ... could this perhaps refer to a long series of minor changes made to the prototypes? Technicron might have the letters "carry over" when they begin a new chassis run from a previous model - so if the 9Q is an advanced version of the 8Q, perhaps the 8Q is the production model of a fictional 7Q.
Maybe, during the design of the 'Mech, the manufacturer applied a very long list of changes and upgrades to the model that were all logged by numbers and letters, similar to how it seems to be the case after public release.

I could see a lot of changes being made to a 'Mech until it finally goes into production, perhaps Technicron is special in that they actually hint towards this design background in the designation...

View PostStrum Wealh, on 29 November 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

And, apparently, the "SP" in HBK-4SP actually stands for... Shawn Phillips! ;)
Likewise, the "SB" in the CGR-SB's designation is the initials of its original creator, Stuart Bell.
Hah, interesting find!
I did not consider that in some cases the letters could hint to the designer as well. :D

#69 0phialacria

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:02 PM

I'd love a great direct damage mech loadout for a Jester.

#70 aldarmoon

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:56 PM

I love my jenners and want to do dragon and kintaro later and who cant love the kurita atlas
thanks for post

#71 muskrat

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 02:45 PM

I would run it much like I run my C!


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...80a17dad2849143

Cept I don't have a Jester Yet (G)

Muskrat

#72 Arkaiko

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 01:33 PM

reading this, i think the Kintaro si a kuritan mech
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kintaro

ah, and this too...
http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=1594.0

#73 Strum Wealh

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 01:49 AM

View PostArkaiko, on 13 June 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

reading this, i think the Kintaro si a kuritan mech
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kintaro

ah, and this too...
http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=1594.0
  • "The Kintaro is a powerful sight to behold, belying its medium size. Built for the Star League to showcase the Narc missile designator, it was a powerful team player until the liberation of Terra from the Usurper led to the Kintaro factory on Mars being shut down. Attrition contributed to the near extinction of the Kintaro before the Third Succession War, but General Dynamics was able to rebuild a factory on Ozawa to produce the design. However, General Dynamics was unable to reproduce the original's Narc Beacon, advanced heat sinks, and armor."
  • "Most of the KTO-18 models can be found with former Federated Suns units in the Federated Commonwealth. More prevalent are the Star League models in the Draconis Combine. These are concentrated in Ghost units as well as some Sword of Light regiments. The Com Guards also field a good number of Star League Kintaros."
Both of those are statements from page 260 of TRO 3039.

The original Kintaro factory (General Mechanics' facility on Mars) was shut down when the Star League fell (late 2700s), and the Kintaro was out of production until General Dynamics rebuilt their sole facility on the world of Ozawa sometime between 2866 and 3025 (after said factory - and much of the planetary surface - was destroyed by DCMS forces sometime between 2830 and 2864), during the period in which Ozawa was part of the FedSuns (where it stays until joining the Republic of the Sphere, around 3081).

By contrast, the bulk of the Kintaros within the DCMS were gifted to the Combine by ComStar as part of "Operation Rosebud", and were likely constructed on Mars before the shutdown of the General Mechanics facility (or, possibly, were new-construction units from a reactivated Martian facility).

Given all that (and having the sole known/confirmed Kintaro production facility in FedSuns space), the Kintaro is actually more of an AFFS 'Mech than it is a DCMS 'Mech... :o





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