44 replies to this topic

[rocketgamecorner]

Thank you so much for all the help! Out of all the fanbases i have been a part of, this has given the best first impressions! Kudos to you! I started using the build koniving recommended, with ER PPC and 3 Small pulse lasers. I also have 8 double heat sinks, engine 235 (I'll upgrade it to 250 one as soon as i get enough C-bills) ferro fiborous armor and the normal structure. I also have purchased the cool run, heat containment, kinetic burst and hard brake skills. The fights have gone a bit better, and I have actually got a few kills and i'm having a blast. I still have a ton of stuff to improve on (obviously) So i shall keep playing and practicing. Kudos to everyone who have posted on this thread to help me! Your tips shall help me greatly!

PS. Good luck with that 3ds max thing, Koniving!

[oldradagast]

I notice he said "10 heatsinks"

If not already stated, make sure you upgrade to Double Heatsinks as soon as possible. The game's explanation text for how Double Heatsinks works is lousy - not sure if they changed it yet - but it says something like "takes up 3 slots but cools at 1.4 times more than a single heatsink." That's all true, but what they forget to mention is that all engines come with some internal heatsinks - a 200 engine comes with 8 in it. When you upgrade to Double Heatsinks, ALL of those internal heatsinks cool at TWICE the normal rate - for no extra weight or slots taken up. That's a huge advantage - long story short, you ALWAYS want to upgrade to double heat sinks ASAP.

As for the rest of the mech, when playing a medium, you are somewhat quick, but also rather fragile, so don't be the guy to get the other team's attention. Instead, use your speed to help out various heavier mechs that are locked in duels. Essentially, you become an extra set of guns that can help out everyone on the team vs. being the guy who's alone in a duel. Of course, you can duel other mediums, battered heavies, etc, but don't try to take on an Assault mech in a medium unless he's alone and you really know what you're doing.

Good luck and welcome to the game!

[Koniving]

rocketgamecorner, on 12 August 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

I also have 8 double heat sinks, engine 235 (I'll upgrade it to 250 one as soon as i get enough C-bills) ferro fiborous armor and the normal structure.

PS. Good luck with that 3ds max thing, Koniving!

8 heatsinks? But it takes 10 to run!

You have 9 + 8, actually. 17 DHS. You mounted 8. The 225 to 245 engines come with 9 pre-built in.

Engines come with heatsinks. At 250 you start with 10. The 225 rating and up, 9. 200 rating and up, 8. Then it goes 175=7, 150=6, 125=5, and finally 100=4.

Engines have heatsinks? Do they cool at a different rate?

Yes. This is one of the things that has me upset with PGI at the moment. The rate should be universal, even if that is universally lower than it is now.

Definitely upgrade to a 250 engine minimum as soon as you can.
The maths!

Spoiler

Even with an identical amount of 17 heatsinks, with the 250 engine you'd have (Base 30 + [10 engine DHS *2] + [7 chassis DHS *1.4] = 59.8 capacity (limit of heat until shutdown).
That's [10 engine DHS *2] + [7 chassis DHS *1.4] = 29.8 / 10 = 2.98/second cooling rate.

With the 235 engine, you're on the 225 level which is 9 pre-installed heatsinks. 17 DHS.
(Base 30 + [9 engine DHS *2] + [8 chassis DHS *1.4] = 59.2 capacity (limit of heat until shutdown).
That's [9 engine DHS *2] + [8 chassis DHS *1.4] = 29.2 / 10 = 2.92/second cooling rate.

It isn't much, but you will truly notice the difference once you achieve all the unlocks. (Actually your capacity is 10% higher than the numbers here with Heat Containment and your cooling is 7.5% higher with Cool Run. But once you have elite, those numbers double to 20% for heat containment and 15% for cool run.)

So that upgrade is important. And no, beyond 250 the capacity rate of identical heatsink counts will not change, as it only upgrades the first 10 DHS to 2.0 rather than 1.4.

-------------------------

Also.. Soon as you can switch Ferro with Endo. I believe you gain 2.5 tons free with Ferro (5% of your total weight). You gain 5 tons free with Endo (10% of your total weight). Endo gives double the weight savings.

What's ferro for? The benefits of Ferro is that it takes less weight to get the same armor, but ultimately at maximum armor that's 2.5 tons of savings. Endo is 10% no matter what. The advantage of Ferro back in the day was that it was cheaper during repair and rearm. Ever since that got removed, Ferro's almost useless. Ferro does NOT increase your maximum armor, it halves the weight of your armor.

--------------------

Some thoughts about the build:

I hope the build works well for you, it should run very cool.

You will, of course, want to play with it, tweak it, improve it. Reallocate armor to suit your own style of play. What if you like more range? What if you like to go faster? What if the ER PPC runs too hot anyway? What if you wanted missiles? The fun part of the game is to experiment and find that build that makes you feel awesome.

I distributed the armor on the build based on the thought you'd spend 90% of your time looking at the enemy. But what if you don't?

What if you do the classic closed beta Centurion? That's throwing your left front side toward the enemy, controlling your right arm to aim over or under your shield, and attack with your shield ahead of you? Then you'd want the armor to favor the left front and right rear. Problem is doing that isn't good as good for the CN9-AL as it is for the CN9-D.

I miss the classic CB Centurion maneuvers. They looked intimidating when they marched at you even at 64.8 kph.
----------
What's a fun example of armor allocation?

Personally I like to throw a lot of armor on my back in a Centurion and keep the front only modestly protected. Everyone aims for the back, and so when I willingly give it to them they throw all their shots into it. I call it "Turtle Backing," and it's a common practice with a much higher heat Centurion build that I run.

Basically I turn my back to them as I run around between buildings waiting to cool off enough to shoot again without shutting down. Happens a lot with standard heatsink builds. After taking their shots into my back, I have approximately 4 seconds before they can fire again. Spin around, aim, shoot, 42 damage! RAWR! Spin back around and RUN! Wash, rinse, repeat.

Note: That's what I do for fun, it's often unexpected, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea so early in the game. Wait til you've got 3 Centurions to Master level, then try it.

----
What's the TL;DR info I need to take from this?

So remember, 250 engine, trade Ferro for Endo, asap. Change armor to suit your needs. Small pulse lasers can be traded for medium lasers for lots more range if you need it, but they take longer to do their full damage and won't be as effective against lights. (But for 3 lasers that's a still a damage upgrade for very miniscule amounts of more heat). Good luck!

P.S. I hate 3ds max.

Edited by Koniving, 12 August 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[rocketgamecorner]

Also.. Soon as you can switch Ferro with Endo.

Do you mean armor or structure? I can't find endo armor in the configure upgrades section, and i can't use the Endo structure because i don't have enough slots.. What does that mean?

[GaussDragon]

You've encountered some of the main problems other newbies experience: Not knowing which variants and which loadouts to choose. Your current setup is what we typically call a snowflake or rainbow-range build. It has far too much of a mish-mash of weapons and it excels at nothing. Your effective DPS drops when managing so many different weapons with different characteristics because of various styles of firing, beam durations, recycle times, ranges, etc.

Most mechs fall into 2 major fighting styles: snipers and brawlers. You have to build your mech around which style you want to use. The Centurion is overwhelmingly a brawler mech. Secondly, you want the right variant, the best variant for the Centurion is the CN9-A. It'll take you a little while to save up for this variant because the DHS, artemis, endo and ferro really raise the price tag, but hopefully you still have some of your newbie bonus. Also, in order to stay alive longer, try and move with a group and with mechs that are also brawlers. Alternatively, you can play more defensively and wait for targets to come to you. The Centurion is a great zombie mech because its geometry allows it to last. You should do what's called rolling the damage so when you're not firing, turn your arms towards the opponent firing at you while your SRMs reload.

Egos aside, my team is one of the more successful ones so our advice comes with a fair amount of credibility. Not, to harp on the people in this thread, some of them have given you very good advice so far. To get you started I pulled the CN9-A build from our internal forums. Follow this exactly and you'll be in much better shape.

Quote

Basic Kit:

STD Engine 260
Endo-Steel
Ferro-Fibrous
Artemis FCS
Double Heat Sinks
11 DHS Total (On Mech Sheet)

Armor:

Head - 18/18
CT - 52/64
CT:R - 12/64
RT - 38/48
RT:R - 10/48
LT - 38/48
LT:R - 10/48
RA - 32/32
LA - 32/32
RL - 39/48
LL - 39/48

Weapons & Ammo:

2x MedLas - ( 2 Center Torso )
3x Artemis SRM 6's w/ 4 Tons of Ammo - ( 1T Head, 1T Right Torso, 1T Right Leg, 1T Left Leg )

Misc Notes:

OPEN YOUR MISSILE BAY DOORS WITH THE "/" KEY. Don't be an ***** and complain about missile delay. Credit to Saevus, Wadde and Deforce for the config.

Edited by GaussDragon, 12 August 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[Roughneck45]

rocketgamecorner, on 12 August 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Also.. Soon as you can switch Ferro with Endo.

Do you mean armor or structure? I can't find endo armor in the configure upgrades section, and i can't use the Endo structure because i don't have enough slots.. What does that mean?

Critical slots are the places on your mech you put your weapons, ammo, heatsinks, etc.

Ferro armor and Endo structure are both weight saving mechanics. You give up 14 critical slots but you gain tonnage to work with. You'll notice some of your crit slots say "dynamic armor" on them, those are the slots being used by the upgrade. Endo slots will say "dynamic structure".

Ferro is worded poorly in game, most players believe they are getting more armor, when in fact it is only lighter.

Endo saves more weight than ferro, so you always want to get endo first. You only want to get ferro if you are stacking the two of them. Stacking them will cost you a total of 28 critical slots, 14 for each upgrade.

Because of that, only lights mechs will make use of ferro, as well as some specialty medium and heavy builds. Higher tonnage mechs need more of their crit slots because they have more tonnage to work with, so you want to fill those slots with weapons and heat sinks. Lower tonnage mechs can rarely fill out all of their crit slots, so they can uprgade to endo and then ferro to get more tonnage to work with.

Generally speaking, double heat sinks and endo steel are mandatory upgrades for every mech in the game, and you should have them both on anything you build except in extreme circumstances.

Lastly, im not sure if anyone linked this yet, but use http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab to experiment with builds. That way you don't accidentally pay for anything in game you don't want, like Ferro. All the upgrades have to be paid for every time you switch, so you have to pay to put them on and remove them.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 August 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[GaussDragon]

rocketgamecorner, on 12 August 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Also.. Soon as you can switch Ferro with Endo.

Do you mean armor or structure? I can't find endo armor in the configure upgrades section, and i can't use the Endo structure because i don't have enough slots.. What does that mean?

Other than cost, the main tradeoff with endo and ferro is that they take up crit slots in your mech. So you save weight but the tradeoff is that you have less space to fit things like weapons, heat sinks, ammo, etc.

[RF Greywolf]

Usually Endo gives you a better weight savings over Ferro. I know I have a few builds that use both but it is very difficult to do.
To switch to endo you will first need to take out ferro armor that will free up enough crits for endo.

Koniving, on 12 August 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

P.S. I hate 3ds max.

I feel ya dude, I feel ya...

[Koniving]

(Holy crap think I edited that enough? Heh.)

But yes. "Endo-Steel Structure." It used to be a bad idea because the repair bills went through the roof. Ferro was better because of that. But, no repair bills. No costs. No problems. Throw it on!

Also check the post again if you could. I edited it like a kajillion times! Yay!

You must remove Ferro to put on Endo. As I said "swap" or "switch." It's gonna hurt the bank, I'm sorry. They both take 14 slots. The build doesn't have enough space to use both.

Edited by Koniving, 12 August 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Koniving]

GaussDragon, on 12 August 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

You've encountered some of the main problems other newbies experience: Not knowing which variants and which loadouts to choose. Your current setup is what we typically call a snowflake or rainbow-range build.

You're talking his first page build, right? He's taken up one I built for him. 2 buttons, one long range but can use at any, and 1 short designed to fry light mechs much faster than the usual methods (yay small pulse lasers!)

Oh! And I see you recommended ze zombie build! Fun, that is. I would definitely recommend the zombie build a bit farther down the line, Rocket, when you're ready for a change of pace.

But, GaussDragon, I didn't want to throw the poor guy into the middle of the fight on the front lines. I assigned Rocket a task of hanging around back and middle-line assaults to protect them, that way he's not focused early on (he who is focused on first dies first) or wanders off on his own (he who is isolated dies alone). It'll let him practice his PPC aim until enemies get close, and then he can swat lights and mediums while the assault deals with the bigger threats (hopefully; sadly many assaults incompetently start shooting the lights too while the enemy wave advances unhindered).
---------
Another fun build for the future is the one used here. Though this is a Wang you can recreate it with the CN9-D.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dcbd3daf7c4c590
Keep in mind it was during the days of repair and rearm. Here's how I'd update it based on current game mechanics.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a3844a42e99390d
(Actually that's exactly how my Yen Lo Wang is set now).

(In that vid, 4:00 to 4:50 is preciously awesome.)

Edited by Koniving, 12 August 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[scJazz]

Astonishingly Koniving got it wrong on the Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous.

The structure of a mech requires 10% of the mechs tonnage. So for your Centurion 50/10=5. Endo requires half as much weight so 50/10 *0.5 = 2.5. 2.5 tons saved 14 crit slots used.

Ferro Fibrous adds 12% points of armor per ton... so instead of 32 points you get 35.84. All figures rounded down so 10 tons of Ferro = 358 points of armor instead of 320. On a Centurion (all 50 ton mechs) this will save you exactly 1 ton and uses 14 crit slots.

Endo is always the better choice if you can only choose one. The Centurion is neat in that many designs of the CN9-AL will allow you to have both FF and ES.

[Roughneck45]

scJazz, on 12 August 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Astonishingly Koniving got it wrong on the Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous.

The structure of a mech requires 10% of the mechs tonnage. So for your Centurion 50/10=5. Endo requires half as much weight so 50/10 *0.5 = 2.5. 2.5 tons saved 14 crit slots used.

Ferro Fibrous adds 12% points of armor per ton... so instead of 32 points you get 35.84. All figures rounded down so 10 tons of Ferro = 358 points of armor instead of 320. On a Centurion (all 50 ton mechs) this will save you exactly 1 ton and uses 14 crit slots.

Endo is always the better choice if you can only choose one. The Centurion is neat in that many designs of the CN9-AL will allow you to have both FF and ES.

This wording confuses me quite a bit. All but the last statement.

Adds 12% points of armor? Ferro does not add armor, just makes it lighter. A fully armored centy has the same durability as a fully armored centy with Ferro.

You may already know this, but like I said, your wording left me confused. I guess you were just giving examples for how the upgrades calculate weight savings?

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 August 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[RF Greywolf]

Roughneck45, on 12 August 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

This wording confuses me quite a bit. All but the last statement.

Adds 12% points of armor? Ferro does not add armor, just makes it lighter. A fully armored centy has the same durability as a fully armored centy with Ferro.

You may already know this, but like I said, your wording left me confused.

He said that Ferro gives you 12% more armor PER TON. You don't hold more, just you get more points per ton.

[scJazz]

Roughneck45, on 12 August 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

This wording confuses me quite a bit. All but the last statement.

Adds 12% points of armor? Ferro does not add armor, just makes it lighter. A fully armored centy has the same durability as a fully armored centy with Ferro.

You may already know this, but like I said, your wording left me confused.

Yeah... this comes up like every time about FF. In TT rules it states clearly that you get 12% more armor points per ton of armor. Since the Maximum amount of armor possible is based on the number of points it creates this unclear situation where it has the effect of being lighter but in reality by the rules you got more points per ton and hence fewer tons required to hit that max.

[Koniving]

scJazz, on 12 August 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Astonishingly Koniving got it wrong on the Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous.

The structure of a mech requires 10% of the mechs tonnage. So for your Centurion 50/10=5. Endo requires half as much weight so 50/10 *0.5 = 2.5. 2.5 tons saved 14 crit slots used.

Ferro Fibrous adds 12% points of armor per ton... so instead of 32 points you get 35.84. All figures rounded down so 10 tons of Ferro = 358 points of armor instead of 320. On a Centurion (all 50 ton mechs) this will save you exactly 1 ton and uses 14 crit slots.

Endo is always the better choice if you can only choose one. The Centurion is neat in that many designs of the CN9-AL will allow you to have both FF and ES.

Actually that's wrong. Using a calculator 10% of 50 is 5 for Endo. Note that "per-cent" means "per 100."
Eek. You're right. Smurfy says 5 tons used for structure, bare mech. Add in endo, and the difference is 2.5 savings.

My ferro thing was short-handed, though. However ferro gives you 1.13 savings exactly on maximum armor when you compare max armor weight in Smurfy's Centurion with Ferro, and subtract max armor weight in Smurfy's Centurion without it. (This one is correct. And that's the value of smurfy's mechlab.)

But on that note: I just finished building a single heatsink Atlas.

Spoiler

You'd be amazed at this thing. I have the true power of 24 full double heatsinks. Twin ER PPC whoosh, and then 0% before I can fire again on Tourmaline. MWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! MWA HA HA HA HA HAH!! Eat this, Paul! I got heat neutrality, and it's all thanks to your refusal of changing the capacity system to make the twin ER PPC rig an instant shutdown.

24 DHS in MWO:
30 base + (10 *2) + (14*1.4) = 69.6 Capacity.
Cooling: (69.6 - 30 = 39.6) / 10 = 3.96/second.

48 SHS in MWO (24 true DHS)
30 base + (24 *2) OR (48*1) = 78 Capacity.
Cooling: (78 - 30 = 48) / 10 = 4.8/second.

Hehehahahhahahhahahaha!

(I have a heat gain of very little, so if I wait half a second after the weapons are ready, I genuinely am heat neutral).

Edited by Koniving, 12 August 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[scJazz]

Yeah ummmm to stay you've been a bit focused on the Heat Neutrality things would be understated

Can't wait for the video!

[Koniving]

Jazz.

Spoiler

Don't forget up above to throw in the unlocks! 20% capacity + 15% cooling.

Spoiler

69.6 capacity turns into 83.52 capacity.
3.96/second cooling turns into 4.554/sec

78 capacity turns into 93.6 capacity.
4.8/second cooling turns into 5.52/sec.

Keep in mind this is paper math, for 0 degrees celsius [closest map is Alpine at -2].

Also keep in mind that this doesn't take into account what I've called the Miracle SHS Nerf. Where if I have more than 20 SHS my percentage with a higher capacity but SHS for two ER PPCs is higher than yours with half the number of DHS, even though it should be FAR lower than yours (or slightly higher with just 10 DHS versus 20 SHS). This hasn't been tested in 6 months, though, so that may have changed.

Vid's being converted and uploaded in the next hour or two. Uses 40 or 44 SHS, can't recall which from last night using the Cataphract 3D cheese on an Atlas K, twin AMS. Lots of tears last night. It will be put in the thread on my signature's second link as it doesn't belong here. It's freaking amazing, and standing in the water we double the 4 heatsinks in our feet for even more awesomeness.

The downfall to heat neutrality is we only do 35 damage per alpha strike, and this wouldn't even be possible if not for MWO's choice in how the system works. We'd have to resort to even smaller heat neutral rigs with far less damage when we do produce them.

Again the video(s) will go on the thread in the second link of my signature.

Rocket, I'll check back here in half an hour or so. Let me know if you get any questions or have thoughts on trying some things. I can take you into some matches tonight if possible. If not then sometime during these hours tomorrow would be good too.

We can try and custom tailor your Centurion to your true playstyles, but for now rack in ze . If you're using the style I described before, where you pick someone and escort them, shoot at what they shoot at when they are shooting at big things. That way you and the person you chose are dealing concentrated damage.

Edited by Koniving, 12 August 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[scJazz]

Koniving, on 12 August 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Jazz.
Keep in mind this is paper math, for 0 degrees celsius [closest map is Alpine at -2].

Rocket, I'll check back here in half an hour or so. Let me know if you get any questions or have thoughts on trying some things. I can take you into some matches tonight if possible. If not then sometime during these hours tomorrow would be good too.

We can try and custom tailor your Centurion to your true playstyles, but for now rack in ze . If you're using the style I described before, where you pick someone and escort them, shoot at what they shoot at when they are shooting at big things. That way you and the person you chose are dealing concentrated damage.

Ummmm... you don't want Alpine for your testing. Forest Colony is the ZERO point. It is the Heat Neutral Map and off the top of my head the only one... River City might also be neutral but Forest Colony IS HEAT NEUTRAL.

Rocket... listen to Konving... go play with him on TS! After you are done you are going to have this soul crushing sensation of sucking. You do not suck! Koniving and friends are just that good and playing with him is going to drag you well out of newbie land and up into Big Boy League.

I want you to read that paragraph above again. After you finish playing with him you should go back and read it again!

[Koniving]

scJazz, on 12 August 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Ummmm... you don't want Alpine for your testing. Forest Colony is the ZERO point. It is the Heat Neutral Map and off the top of my head the only one... River City might also be neutral but Forest Colony IS HEAT NEUTRAL.

Used to believe that. It makes logical sense when you think about it, Forest Colony was the first map. Thus, the obvious first conclusion is it was the basis of all heat balancing. (You of all people should know I believed it as I was one of the first to hypothesize it). However, zero degrees celsius is much more of a realistic zero point when you consider the temperature change, twice, on forest colony since June last year. Hard to go by it now. That and I didn't hit heat neutrality there unless in the water. Came close, but not really. I did hit heat neutrality on Alpine where it's -2 degrees though. Barely.

We deduced this through hours of Lordred's religious testing during the ATD 43 answers debate, leading us to our final conclusions on how it's run. It's accurate within 0.25 to 0.5 seconds, so it's about as close as you can humanly get it without using a machine to calculate it in real time for us.

Also makes temperature adjustments much easier to base on. After all 0 degrees celsius in 32 fahrenheit, is freezing point of water.
Forest Colony is 86 degrees fahrenheit, and 30 degrees celsius. Quite hot. Hotter than the average temperatures in PGI's part of Canada.

Edited by Koniving, 12 August 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[Sheraf]

rocketgamecorner, on 11 August 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

I just stared this game yesterday, even though its wayy to hard to get in to for new players. I haven't played a single mechwarrior game, so i came to this game without any knowledge of the mechanics. My question is: how can i get better at this game? I played with the starting mechs for a while, but purchased the centurion CN9-AL mech, so i could get used to building my own mechs as soon as possible.The problem is: my mech is doing minimal damage and can't take damage at all. I currently have a med pulse laser, PPC, SRM 6 and SRM4 with 10 heat sinks and an STD engine 200. Even with the PPC (wich is quite a good weapon, or so i have been told) i can't dish enough damage and usually get killed 3 minutes in to the game and only deal about 60-140 DMG. Even a single kill is a huge achievement. I've been thinking about purchasing a mech with some ballista hard points to get a gauss rifle (Heard its a damn good weapon) Or should i just concentrate on honing my skill with this mech? Any tips about the build i'm using? Any help is appreciated!

You are a medium mech. At the begining of match, try to stick with your team's bigger mech, waiting for your chance to fight, don't try to fight the enemies in the begining. Wait until the enemies get closer to your weapon optimum range, then you come out and aid your team.