483 replies to this topic

[The14th]

Wales Grey, on 12 August 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

The problem I have with your comparison is that Blizzard is a company that knows how to make games, and good ones at that. PGI has no history of strong titles, PGI doesn't have the money that Blizzard did, and PGI have not shown the level of competence that Blizzard had when they launched WoW.

Blizzard planned everything out in the development of WoW, adapted it to community criticism, and it is currently the single most polished and slippery-smooth MMORPG on the market today.

A far better comparison would be to compare MWO to Star Wars Galaxies.

Have you ever been on a Blizzard forum? I used to frequent the WoW forums a lot back in the WotLK days (aka WoW's zenith), and not a day went by without somebody saying the game is dying and the devs were destroying it. So your own example paints you as Chicken Little.

[Wales Grey]

The14th, on 12 August 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

Why haven't they addressed #saveMWO? Simple answer, there is no response they can give that would be considered satisfactory by you guys. Better to just try and give the answers they can and move on. Personally, after seeing this same type of "concern" all over the LoL boards years back it's really hard to take most of you "critics" seriously.

Hi, these are not concerns that just popped up last patch, or even two or three patches ago. These are issues that have not been resolved, in some cases for over three months. Please excuse us critics for being critical, because it's hard to take you "shills" or "white knights" seriously.

The14th, on 12 August 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Have you ever been on a Blizzard forum? I used to frequent the WoW forums a lot back in the WotLK days (aka WoW's zenith), and not a day went by without somebody saying the game is dying and the devs were destroying it. So your own example paints you as Chicken Little.

Again, the difference is that Blizzard are ******* amazing at development. PGI are not.

edit:
I just noticed you don't address any of the arguments of the critical factions, instead attempting to assassinate their arguments via fallacious application of ad hominem rhetoric. Please attack arguments, not people.

Edited by Wales Grey, 12 August 2013 - 09:21 PM.

[The14th]

Wales Grey, on 12 August 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

Hi, these are not concerns that just popped up last patch, or even two or three patches ago. These are issues that have not been resolved, in some cases for over three months. Please excuse us critics for being critical, because it's hard to take you "shills" or "white knights" seriously.


Again, the difference is that Blizzard are ******* amazing at development. PGI are not.

Not really a fair comparison since PGI hasn't even finished one game yet. Also, problems not being fixed for a couple of patches was a common complaint on the WoW, Diablo, and SC forums (and probably still is). Ready to give up on this analogy yet?

[MoonUnitBeta]

Couldn't be more than disappointed about advanced zoom. I'm glad the question was asked because in all honesty I was hoping for this thing to be fixed back in.. well.. Hmm you tell me from this statement made back in March...

Source: Command Chair Post: Re-worked Vision Modes

Quote

We will look in the future to support additional vision modes that are equipped as modules to give various tactical advantages, but will come at a trade-off. It's safe to say that the zoom module will be getting a re-work and should be a very viable choice for those snipers that want to crank up their head-shot stats.

YEAH BUT WHEN?!

Definitely wasn't thinking it was going to be 5 months later of complete silence on the matter, only to find out that it has been pushed off to the side. Yes, I understand priorities. But wow, really? Why does a band-aid fix like ghost heat make it through the priority list, when you can just simply scrap the PIP zoom, and implement a x1.5 zoom, a x3.0 zoom, and for those who buy the module, get second option of x4.0 zoom and a forced FOV of 60!? I mean, compare that to how ever much energy was spent into Ghost Heat, and heck, maybe even 3PV, into solving these issues.. We would be further ahead maybe.
Then, AT THE VERY LEAST, people who buy the stinking module can actually get some real use out of it....

I wonder sometimes too, how many things are 10% complete... 50%... maybe even 80% complete, but there's a head honcho on the top of the pyramid that goes "NO. STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING. WORK ON THIS INSTEAD!" Then when it's time to revisit that thing that was previously being worked on, it's too late. It has to be completely re-done again because no one remembers what was going on with it, or what was done with it.

I dunno, I'm talking just out of my ***, but the main point here is that I'm really starting to wonder (and worry) about a lot of the issues piling up. Things that seemed like they were getting fixed, suddenly are plowed into the ditch to make room for other issues that keep coming down. And then to top it all off, you type:
/spawnscrollinglavawall<Title:LAUNCH>;ActivateOn[d=09/17/2013t=00:00]
/announce<LAUNCH>;CountDownTimerTo[d=09/17/2013t=00:00]
And announce that the game is launching Sept: 17th. There is literally. A pile of stuff to do. A pile of errors yet to be fixed. Bandaids that need to be removed and features reworked. All of those things are plowed again back into the ditch so that you can push major features through for the Scrolling Lava Wall Launch that you're not ready for.

It's painful for me - mostly because I want to see this game succeed. I live up in Prince George BC. Where Ospika Bullivard was voted the worst roads in BC... I know what happens when little rain pot holes are left unattended. Rain falls, winter comes, ice come through, and the next year it's twice as bad, and every rainfall makes it worse to the point where a slurry of tar and pebbles just can't fix it anymore. No body uses the road, and because of the town's incompetency to acknowledge a problem in it's infancy, it turned into a multi million dollar project to get the road torn up and repaved...

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 12 August 2013 - 09:25 PM.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

Wales Grey, on 12 August 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

The problem I have with your comparison is that Blizzard is a company that knows how to make games, and good ones at that. PGI has no history of strong titles, PGI doesn't have the money that Blizzard did, and PGI have not shown the level of competence that Blizzard had when they launched WoW.

Blizzard planned everything out in the development of WoW, adapted it to community criticism, and it is currently the single most polished and slippery-smooth MMORPG on the market today.

A far better comparison would be to compare MWO to Star Wars Galaxies.

In your opinion, or my opinion, yes - Blizzard is a good company that can make games.

To other people... they cater to the Asian market (see recent expansion), sell their souls (see all the cosmetic gear that outstrips anything MWO does), can't balance a single class let alone all of them (see the THOUSANDS of threads on class/spec balance), and depending on your 'camp', either dumb the game down too much for casuals, or put 'good' content out of reach of the average Joe.

Perception always differs, but for every whine I see on here, there is an EXACT parallel on the boards of World of Warcraft, EVE: Online, or any other successful MWO. People love - LOVE - to doom and gloom. There's something innate in the human condition that delights in being right about something (or somebody) being 'bad'. We see a lot of that here.

[The14th]

Destructicus, on 12 August 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

nublet
wow's zenith was b/c
LK was the beginning of the end

Gameplay aside, it was not from a subscriber standpoint. And that statement really just backs up my overall point.

[Wales Grey]

The14th, on 12 August 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Not really a fair comparison since PGI hasn't even finished one game yet. Also, problems not being fixed for a couple of patches was a common complaint on the WoW, Diablo, and SC forums (and probably still is). Ready to give up on this analogy yet?

Uh, yes PGI have finished a game. In fact, they've developed several.

Let's look at their development history!

• Die Hard: Nakatomi Plaza (Windows) - A lithitech engine game that started as a half-life mod. The first real project of the studio
  
• Bass Pro Shops: The Strike (Xbox 360, Wii, Windows) - A fishing game that met with okayish reviews. (Fishing is a niche genere)
  
• Bass Pro Shops: The Hunt (Xbox 360, Wii, PC) - A fishing game about hunting? Met with awful reviews.
  
• Duke Nukem Forever (Windows, Xbox 360, PS3) - PGI was contracted by Gearbox to work on the multiplayer component
  
• EA Playground (Nintendo DS)*
  
• Medal of Honor: Heroes 2 (PSP)*
  
• Need For Speed: Undercover (PSP)*
  
• Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (Windows, Xbox 360, PS3)*

* PGI is not billed as the main developer, so I guess they were contracted to work on some part of the game? Not really sure.

Compare that to Blizzard's curriculum vitae when they developed WoW:

• Warcraft
  
• Diablo
  
• Warcraft 2
  
• Diablo 2
  
• Starcraft
  
• Warcraft 3

Which company would you rather have develop an MMO?

[The14th]

Wales Grey, on 12 August 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Uh, yes PGI have finished a game. In fact, they've developed several.

Let's look at their development history!

• Die Hard: Nakatomi Plaza (Windows) - A lithitech engine game that started as a half-life mod. The first real project of the studio
  
• Bass Pro Shops: The Strike (Xbox 360, Wii, Windows) - A fishing game that met with okayish reviews. (Fishing is a niche genere)
  
• Bass Pro Shops: The Hunt (Xbox 360, Wii, PC) - A fishing game about hunting? Met with awful reviews.
  
• Duke Nukem Forever (Windows, Xbox 360, PS3) - PGI was contracted by Gearbox to work on the multiplayer component
  
• EA Playground (Nintendo DS)*
  
• Medal of Honor: Heroes 2 (PSP)*
  
• Need For Speed: Undercover (PSP)*
  
• Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (Windows, Xbox 360, PS3)*

* PGI is not billed as the main developer, so I guess they were contracted to work on some part of the game? Not really sure.



Compare that to Blizzard's curriculum vitae when they developed WoW:

• Warcraft
  
• Diablo
  
• Warcraft 2
  
• Diablo 2
  
• Starcraft
  
• Warcraft 3

Which company would you rather have develop an MMO?

Those are all ports [redacted]...

Edited by Biruke, 12 August 2013 - 11:25 PM.
insults

[Destructicus]

The14th, on 12 August 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Gameplay aside, it was not from a subscriber standpoint. And that statement really just backs up my overall point.

If a video game can sell out that's what Wow did with LK , Cata and MoP
That's what PGI wants to do
PGI wants to sell out when it has nothing to sell
The thing is Blizz can actually pull some amazing stuff off when it wants to
PGI think its a big name company that thinks it can afford to screw over it's dedicated player base
It's dead wrong
Still
I don't know why PGI thinks it can get away with the the crap it pulls

[Archon Adam Steiner]

Past precedent means very little; BioWare made Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect.

It also made a 300 million dollar MMO call SW:ToR that tanked harder than anything in history.

Let us also not compare a massive company with literally limitless money to develop games to a F2P title from a small-time company. People have ridiculous expectations. We have a stable game with some balance issues; all PvP games have balance issues, even ones like WoW and EVE that are a decade old - even after over ten years, they still have problems with balance. Get used to it, it's part of online gaming.

[Wales Grey]

Arrachtas, on 12 August 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

Perception always differs, but for every whine I see on here, there is an EXACT parallel on the boards of World of Warcraft, EVE: Online, or any other successful MWO. People love - LOVE - to doom and gloom. There's something innate in the human condition that delights in being right about something (or somebody) being 'bad'. We see a lot of that here.

Wanna know what the big difference is? Our so-called "whining" is consistent, detailed, coherent, and based on arguments we have yet to see people attempt to attack successfully.

Our complaint about the #swagheat scaling system isn't that it nerfs our favorite toys, or that it makes something OP, it's that the system makes no ******* sense at all for whatever they were trying to do.

It's like watching a person tear down drywall to replace a burnt-out lightbulb, and then when you point out that the person could just replace the bulb, they yell at you about how they aren't going to hire some union contractor and the issue is the wiring and you need to shut up, the rest of the people in the building like holes in walls anyway.

[Destructicus]

Wales Grey, on 12 August 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

A far better comparison would be to compare MWO to Star Wars Galaxies.

Or SWTOR
Another game that was basically Titanic in terms of development
but still
This is incredible accurate
The dedicated player base was left for dead while devs went for casual's money
In the end they shot themselves in the back, and they deserved it

[The14th]

Destructicus, on 12 August 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

If a video game can sell out that's what Wow did with LK , Cata and MoP
That's what PGI wants to do
PGI wants to sell out when it has nothing to sell
The thing is Blizz can actually pull some amazing stuff off when it wants to
PGI think its a big name company that thinks it can afford to screw over it's dedicated player base
It's dead wrong
Still
I don't know why PGI thinks it can get away with the the crap it pulls

Blizz also noticed (and Ghostcrawler posted multiple times about this) that persons who screamed about how bad the game was and how much they hated Blizz ended up being some of their biggest customers. Along side my continuing point that I have been seeing posts like this for years really makes it hard to take you seriously.

Edited by The14th, 12 August 2013 - 09:38 PM.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

The 'whining' around here is often overly-emotional, and comes loaded with the belief of the 'whine-ees' that PGI is 'not listening' simply because PGI does not implement the 'whine-ees' suggestions. People can listen to you, or me, or whomever WITHOUT doing what they hear. That does not mean what is said is not considered, evaluated, and used as an alternate source of ideas. Jump-jet shake is one such example; it was a community proposal and was implemented.

[Wales Grey]

Arrachtas, on 12 August 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

Past precedent means very little; BioWare made Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect.

Do you know who made Jade Empire?

BIOWARE.

Do you know who made KOTOR?

BIOWARE.

Do you know who made Neverwinter Nights?

BIOWARE.

Do you know who made Baulder's Gate?

BIOWARE.



Tell me again how Bioware was totally a black horse in the RPG game market.

edit: Tell me again how a company with a proven track record in the RPG market, working with one of the most well-documented engines, with the massive funding of EA behind them, were exactly like PGI are at this time when they made Mass Effect and DA:O. Oh wait, they're not the same, not even in the same league!

Arrachtas, on 12 August 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Jump-jet shake is one such example; it was a community proposal and was implemented.

A proposal that was then stripped out in under a month, because some people apparently have selective nausea that only activates when they press the space bar.

Edited by Wales Grey, 12 August 2013 - 09:48 PM.

[Destructicus]

The14th, on 12 August 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Blizz also noticed (and Ghostcrawler posted multiple times about this) that persons who screamed about how bad the game was and how much they hated Blizz ended up being some of their biggest customers. Along side my continuing point that I have been seeing posts like this for years really makes it hard to take you seriously.

I can't tell if we're agreeing or not
My point is that devs don't care about their loyalist customers
They only care about money
Quantity over quality if you will

[Tegiminis]

Why are you so unwilling to design your game like a smart person? Why are you so determined to destroy a game with this potential? Why do you refuse to apply bandaid fixes until you fix your broken design? Why do you continually ignore good advice from experience players?

Please answer these questions with the next Ask The Devs, because I genuinely want to know why your design team is so terrible. I want to understand the thought processes behind a studio that is killing what was once a great game.

Take your heads out of the sand.

Edit:

It's telling that Hawken is a game that accomplishes your goals better than you do, and it's not even trying to be a MechWarrior game.

Arrachtas, on 12 August 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

The amount of whining and 'it's all over' in here is comic gold; reminds me of the forums of every other MMO. Heck, I suppose we have nothing on World of Warcraft, though; that company only makes one billion dollars per year with millions of 15$/month users... who spam their forums about how bad the game is, and how awful balance is. Perhaps all this whining just means that MWO has finally 'made it' to the big leagues.

You got a little brown on your nose.

Edited by Tegiminis, 12 August 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[The14th]

Destructicus, on 12 August 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

I can't tell if we're agreeing or not
My point is that devs don't care about their loyalist customers
They only care about money
Quantity over quality if you will

To an extent they HAVE to care about money, as video game development is not funded by happy thoughts and positive forum threads. And how does PGI have loyal customers yet? If you guys are serious about "making your voices heard" then how about you do something beyond what every Net Spartacus has done before you. Organize a boycott, seek attention from the media, do something! Because complaining and petitions is old hat that never worked in the first place.

[Wales Grey]

Arrachtas, on 12 August 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

The 'whining' around here is often overly-emotional, and comes loaded with the belief of the 'whine-ees' that PGI is 'not listening' simply because PGI does not implement the 'whine-ees' suggestions. People can listen to you, or me, or whomever WITHOUT doing what they hear. That does not mean what is said is not considered, evaluated, and used as an alternate source of ideas. Jump-jet shake is one such example; it was a community proposal and was implemented.

The14th, on 12 August 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Blizz also noticed (and Ghostcrawler posted multiple times about this) that persons who screamed about how bad the game was and how much they hated Blizz ended up being some of their biggest customers. Along side my continuing point that I have been seeing posts like this for years really makes it hard to take you seriously.

So are you going to address the arguments and specific points that #savemwo brought up, or are you just going to keep posting this ad hominem trash?

[The14th]

Wales Grey, on 12 August 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Which fills me with confidence in PGI's skills, how?

It's not really informative at all. Many companies have to get their starts doing grunt work for bigger firms. This leads back to my point that it's not fair to compare their unfinished project to games made by one of the biggest names out there. Is MWO perfect and the greatest game out there? God no. But not even the Devs are claiming that.