195 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Shakespeare, on 13 August 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

This is the worst overreaction I've yet seen in the forums. He used ONE WORD to describe a theoretical fix, and the loudest among us have immediately constructed detailed theories about how awful it's going to be.

"desyncing" could mean anything. The most reasonable assumption is that they'd like to adjust projectile speed or recycle rate such that you can't just group the two weapon systems together and expect them to hit the same spot.

But no, instead we get wild shrieking about how incompetent they are. Why would a dev EVER read the forums with this drivel.

Hey Bill, (Can I call you Bill?)

PGI and the crew have not had a great track record "Fixing" stuff to date. Just Sayin'

[jakucha]

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Says who? I've never read that rule.

No, you're completely misstating the REALITY of 'alpha strikes' and TT play. In TT play we had this extremely effective mechanism for limiting how often alpha strikes were used, PRIMARILY, the Heat Affects Table:


THIS is what is actually missing from the game. In TT if you fired your alpha strike OVER and OVER and OVER again with no delays for cooling, you had all sorts of negative stuff happen to you and your 'mech WELL BEFORE shutting down.

As it is now, PGI has left this key balance factor out. So that results in a game where people can fire high heat alpha strikes to their hearts content, riding that 99% heat with ZERO ill affects.

THAT is what needs to change, and in that, can be things like as you heat up your weapon aim deconverges.

I, not for one f'ing minute believe the lie that PGI is reported to have stated that they can't do on the fly convergence adjustments. The game is CONSTANTLY doing that already when you switch from targets of differing distance. So there IS a mechanism in place, it's a matter of having the gumption to utilize it fully.

No this hurts your 'standard' builds as well. Builds that by default have more than X-penalized-number of any weapon system. That stacking heat penalty was among the f'ng dumbest things PGI has ever done to this game.

Your experience in this game does not match mine. What happens is yeah, early on there's a little bit of juggling as people try and figure out what the new min/max level is, once that's figured out, they start cookie cutting them again.

Why? Again, it's not just the build, how 'pin pointy' the fire is, but how often and how quickly you are able fire that high damage alpha.

Raise the risk of firing that over and over again, FOR ALL 'MECHS, and across the board, not just on the cheese builds, not just on boats, BUT EVERY conceivable build. TT did that, again, through the use of that heat affects table listed above, and AGAIN, that table was part of EVERY SINGLE RECORD SHEET EVER PRINTED, REGARDLESS.OF.HOW.THE.MECH.WAS.BUILT!

Let's stop fooling ourselves and getting distracted by symptoms but go after the REAL cause.

BS. It's more than possible it happens now. Switch quickly from a target far away to one that's close and watch your weapons fire go to either side of the target because convergence hasn't yet updated to reflect the new target. That's in-game repeatable. Even PGI stated that there is in fact a slight delay in convergence updating when switching to different ranged targets as an answer to, "How come my lasers keep going to either side, or cross in front of a target", way back in closed beta.

The ability to affect convergence is there, it's only a matter of utilizing it.

This portion of what you've stated is probably unfortunately true, but not because it can't be done, but because I don't think the group of programmers responsible for this area of MWO are creative enough to figure it out.

All it requires is to change the range reading +/- a certain percentage and you've affected convergence. Utilize two variables for range "REAL", which is the ACTUAL distance, and "MEASURED" which is another variable that can is used for weapons convergence calculations. If you have aimed long enough at the target "REAL" and "MEASURED" will be the same, and you have pin-point accuracy. However, if you quickly switch targets, "MEASURED" takes time to update, and the range used for convergence will be somewhere between "REAL" and "MEASURED" affecting convergence. With a heat affects table in place, at certain heat levels you can randomly affect "MEASURED" by 20% to 50%, so that a player running hot fires at a target, subtract 50% of "MEASURED" range from target and watch the weapons converge WELL IN FRONT of the target, and the opposite happens when adding 50%, they'll converge BEHIND the target.

Likewise with a heat affects table at certain heat levels, you could randomly have weapons just NOT FIRE, ALSO by default affecting 'convergence'...

C'mon PGI, get creative, these 'sofa king we tarred it' band-**** you keep slapping on are getting really, really BAD.

The heat damage to CT overtime can be considered a first step into the heat penalty territory. Not too terrifying on its own, which may mean they're considering adding various other penalties to compound it which would make it not a "bandaid". That word is becoming more of a buzzword than annoying hashtag memes.

Edited by jakucha, 13 August 2013 - 09:16 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Hey Bill, (Can I call you Bill?)

PGI and the crew have not had a great track record "Fixing" stuff to date. Just Sayin'

Word, and +1 on that brotha!

[Khobai]

Quote

The heat damage to CT overtime can be considered a first step into the heat penalty territory.

Except that it makes no sense. Its just another poorly implemented fix for convergence which wouldnt be needed if convergence wasnt a problem in the first place.

[Shakespeare]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Hey Bill, (Can I call you Bill?)

PGI and the crew have not had a great track record "Fixing" stuff to date. Just Sayin'

you can - just keep in mind there's another shakespeare here who actually DOES go by bill. I prefer 'shakes'.
And yes, you've got a point, fixing is a coin-toss. I just hate seeing any and all early speculation/indication of future intentions in the ATD turned into fuel for more raging. Can't we wait till there's something to actually whine about? He offered no theories, all he did was use a word that is being completely twisted to mean an entire new subsystem is in the works just to screw with PPC/Gauss snipers. All they're doing right now is looking for a way to make that combo harder to use, and we reward this hint by going nuclear on them. Again. Who would want to give any info or answer any questions in the face of this lunacy? People are rabid.

[Dimento Graven]

jakucha, on 13 August 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

The heat damage to CT overtime can be considered a first step into the heat penalty territory. Not too terrifying on its own, which may mean they're considering adding various other penalties to compound it which would make it not a "bandaid". That word is becoming more of a buzzword than annoying hashtag memes.

Unfortunately though they've put what should be ONE of the LAST affects as their 'first step.' Making it more of a "misstep" than anything.

They didn't just "put the cart before the horse", hell, they walked to their destination then started thinking about what kind of wheels they wanted on that cart...

So we have ONE extra affect at the very end, and a whole 99% of absolute NOTHING which continues to result in MOST OF THE OTHER balance problems people are complaining about, near endless high point value alphas, ridiculous boat builds not normal to BT, eternal pinpoint convergence, unnatural de-syncing, bizarre ill thought out heat stacking penalties, etc. etc. etc.

It can be considered a 'bandaid' if it does nothing substantial towards resolving the real problem, and as long as people either:

A. Never go beyond 99%
or
B. Let the system cool them naturally without over riding

They won't even experience the affect, any value it may have is mitigated right out the gate as it doesn't do anything to add any risk during that initial 99% of heat build up.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shakespeare, on 13 August 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

you can - just keep in mind there's another shakespeare here who actually DOES go by bill. I prefer 'shakes'.
And yes, you've got a point, fixing is a coin-toss. I just hate seeing any and all early speculation/indication of future intentions in the ATD turned into fuel for more raging. Can't we wait till there's something to actually whine about? He offered no theories, all he did was use a word that is being completely twisted to mean an entire new subsystem is in the works just to screw with PPC/Gauss snipers. All they're doing right now is looking for a way to make that combo harder to use, and we reward this hint by going nuclear on them. Again. Who would want to give any info or answer any questions in the face of this lunacy? People are rabid.

Shakes it is
Isn't that called theorycrafting?

[Khobai]

Quote

And what bearing do hit tables have? This is an FPS. Hit % are determined by the players ability to make the shot.

The hit tables have bearing because were using armor values from TT. Those values are based on certain locations only getting hit a certain % of the time. They were never meant to handle precise aiming or convergence. And even doubling those values has proven ineffectual.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 13 August 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

The hit tables have bearing because were using armor values from TT. Those values are based on certain locations only getting hit a certain % of the time. They were never meant to handle precise aiming or convergence. And even doubling those values has proven ineffectual.

I Totally agree!
So how did earlier versions of the MechWarrior title make it feel more realistic?

[Khobai]

Quote

So how did earlier versions of the MechWarrior title make it feel more realistic?

They didnt. mechwarrior 3 had double armor. and the clan uac/20 fired once per second for full damage. The only thing that kept mechwarrior 3 remotely balanced in multiplayer was the shoddy 1990s hit detection and the fact that 99% of weapons missed. You basically had to use lasers or ****.

[CeeKay Boques]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

I Totally agree!
So how did earlier versions of the MechWarrior title make it feel more realistic?

Mechwarrior 4 end game was PPC and Gauss. 2 shot kills were very possible. Highlanders and Daishis could own swaths of enemies. Strong players could make things happen with LBX-10s and 20s. But most other weapons were for fun, and boating was the name of the game. 7 cERLarge Nova Cat. This is why many league games were with respawn, so that long term tactics could get played out even with dozens of kills and deaths.

Mechwarrior 2 was LRMs.

Long range is king in this game.

I loved Mechwarrior 4. This game is better than it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thanks for the answer.

About This game... Why would I want you to get in knife range if I have reach weapons???

[Khobai]

yep mechwarrior 4 was all jump sniping and two hit kills lol.

basically every single mechwarrior title has been terrible in multiplayer. which is why PGI really shouldnt be using them as a basis for their game lol.

[Dimento Graven]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

I Totally agree!
So how did earlier versions of the MechWarrior title make it feel more realistic?

As I recall from earlier games, and I may be misremembering this but, ---> HEAT AFFECTS TABLE <---, they weren't the shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shut down, wait, repeat that we currently have in MWO.

Edit -
Note: I've only ever played TWO multiplayer FPS BT sims:

1. The earliest of them all, the GEnie MechWarrior based on the FIRST PC based Mech sim in the early 90's
2. That arcade version where you climbed inside a game console mocked up to be 'mech warrior cockpit.

I've played all the other MechWarrior PC games, just never multiplayer, but as I recall most of these had some more 'complete' Heat Affects system, that MWO currently lacks.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 August 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Stop trying to march out into open field like you're invulnerable, you're not. So yeah, any 'mech with a weapon with enough range to hit you, is going to try. You're not dying because of "one" pinpoint alpha, you're dying because you think that just because you're in a 100-ton walking death machine, you shouldn't be able to be killed.

Sorry, stick to cover... Open field dashes are dumb.

You don't need to do open field dashes to be exposed to a 35 damage alpha. Or a hypothetical 60 damage Clan Alpha. Unless you play only Cap-Warrior Online, you always have to leave cover, and 3 seconds of leaving cover is enough to be hit by an alpha, and can be enough to make the firepower advantage of a short range build moot.

[GingerBang]

In all my years of dev support and analytic work, I've never seen a more clear cut case of a developer getting in over their heads. They obviously had no idea what they were getting into with cryengine 3. Anyone in their right mind, anyone with any experience at all would have known about the obvious issues with things like multiple scaled renderings, and advanced zoom never would have happened. I suggest everyone out there reading this who has never seen Mechwarrior: Living Legends to at least youtube some gameplay. The folk who made that mod were not even being paid, and it is beautiful. Why? Because they knew what they were getting into, and they knew the engines limitations before they started and they designed the game around it. PGI just tried to cram their idea down CryEngines throat, and here we are.


Awful mech scaling under the excuse of "oh but there is so much hollow space"

Terrible ghost heat system that use arbitrary number scaling and totally craps on the theory of a catapults ears being "mostly hollow space" How is it holding that heat then PGI if it is so hollow and full of air?

And now this new de-sync thing totally nullifies the heat systems purpose to begin with, and just leaves every other non-boating mech in the game far more gimped than before.


It's like PGI just writes down ideas on post-it notes and just goes fishing in the middle of the meeting table for which idea to implement next. As mentioned before, they have just given up on trying to adapt to the cryengine for certain things like the advanced zoom. At this point i wouldn't be surprised if they just left it, and maybe even the command module in the game at launch, as a way to trick new users into wasting money. If they have just given up, what is to stop them? They have just become complacent with their own failure at this point it would seem. All they want to do is double down and never admit they screwed up, they just keep trucking forward with CryEngine 3 and we are just along for the ride.


The sad truth is we probably won't get off this truck, and PGI knows it. They can do whatever they want now, and who's left? The people who love mechwarrior enough to put up with their crap, and anyone out there yet who hasn't been here yet and has no idea what they've done. They don't need to admit they've messed up, so they never will. All we can do is sit and hope that some day, somebody at PGI will wake up decide to change things.

Edited by GingerBang, 14 August 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[jakucha]

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

B. Let the system cool them naturally without over riding

Except you still take damage even if you let it cool down and start up automatically. The damage is slow but it will rack up if you keep shooting past 100 percent. The heat penalty system simply needs to be expanded eventually.

Edited by jakucha, 14 August 2013 - 01:19 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Just a reminder, we don't acutally know what "de-syncing" means, or do we?

It could just be an overly fancy way of saying: "Soon, Gauss Rifles and PPCs will have different rates of fire".

If it's that, it might only be a nerf to brawlers, however, since a true alpha-sniper boat tends to spend time in cover between shots, and extending the time in cover by a second (if at all, because you don't necessarily wait only the time needed for a weapon to recycle in cover) will not be such a large impact.

[Khobai]

Quote

It could just be an overly fancy way of saying: "Soon, Gauss Rifles and PPCs will have different rates of fire".

Pretty sure they mentioned somewhere they were toying with the idea of slowing gauss rifles down but increasing the damage. So I would guess thats what desyncing means... probably like 5.0 cooldown and 18.75 damage or something like that.

[Ransack]

MadcatX, on 13 August 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

An Urbanmech and an Atlas hiding behind cover:

Urbanmech: So why you behind this rock? Usually this is my hiding place until you're done

Atlas: I can't peak out.... they'll see me...

Urbanmech: But your the Atlas, king of the battlefield! Seriously, you have a skull in your head, a skull!

Atlas: That's all in the past my classy friend. Those were better times, where I could walk across a battlefield and the enemy would hit me various locations. But the enemy, they got smart. All long-range weapons now bud, and the ability to hit me square in the middle with every shot.

Urbanmech: Sorry to hear, bro. So if you're not walking out there doing your thing, who took your place?

Atlas: No one but the stupid walk out in battlefields now. We must all hide like you. Well... ok.. there's an exception....

** spider runs back behind cover **

Spider: just finished running around the battlefield a few times hit a couple of them with machine guns a few of the big ones chased me around thinking they could catch me but the fools couldn't even hit me because i'm so awesome but anyways gotta go annoy them some more i'll see you around bye!!!1!

Urbanmech Wait, he can run around all he wants in the open and.. but... what?

Atlas: I don't want to talk about it

Urbanmech: Take it from me, if you can't be a super, at least keep it classy. Here, wear one of these top hats, it'll make you feel better.

+1

Bravo, that gave me a good chuckle.