269 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

kamiko kross, on 19 November 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

I could say the same to you.
Re-read the tone of some of what they said.
I'm sorry if I caused any offence to anyone, but......some of what has been said IS just whining. Some of them have been rather aggressive and rude with their own posts, essentially calling us either fan boys or liars. Because many of us believe that the economy is not actually bad at all. When I tried at the start of my involvement to be polite with it I essentially got shouted down by posters who seemingly have entitlement issues.

If they are being rude they need to cool it as well, but at the onset of this you told people to stop complaining instead of simply saying why you disagree. That isn't exactly being polite so much as being dismissive. From there people disagreed with you and you escalated with comments about whining and free players vs paid players etc. and ultimately why I said you were being petty and rude. This can be said of a number of players on these forums because instead of just saying "I disagree, and here is why" they always have to add in their little digs and passive aggressive nonsense to try and drill their point home.

kamiko kross, on 19 November 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

I made comparisons with WT and WoT because I felt they were kinda the direct contenders. The WT economy IS worse than this, that Is a FACT. The ques for games in HB in WT are testament to this fact. There is hardly anyone at high tier, hardly anyone can afford to run the planes because of the insane repair cost. Gaijin put in a free repair mode to alleviate the loss if you are prepared to wait for your plane.....some of them take DAYS to repair. As low as tier 6 out of 20 can take over 5 hours! Yet, people still get really antsy over it because I and others disagree.

This may in fact be true, but others have disagreed so what is seemingly a FACT to you may actually be more nuanced than what you perceive it as.

kamiko kross, on 19 November 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

I actually sat down last night and worked out how fast it would take me to get to tier 20 in WT and own my first tier 20 plane compared to buying three atlases....WT lost by a HUGE factor

I would be curious as to the numbers you came up with.

kamiko kross, on 19 November 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

What people seem to be angry about is the amount of time it takes to get ALL what they WANT. It used to be better? Now it's worse?

Yes, people are frustrated with the amount of time it takes to get things in this game. Not everyone is going to be ok with playing the same one or two mechs again and again. Mechwarrior in its previous incarnations received a lot of praise for the customization one could do with the mechs, but in MW:O you can't really play around with builds or new mechs a lot unless you have a lot of extra c-bills floating around. As for your question if it was better the answer is yes. It was much better than it is now. We took roughly a 30% cut in c-bills when they introduced 12v12, and while there were a few complaints about the income before the change the number of complaints have increased significantly since they made the change.

kamiko kross, on 19 November 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

If half of these guys had been in 1.27 WT earning 40k+ per game on a non premium account and then after the economy nerf went down to 10k per game, all with increased research costs and repairs....what do you think they'd be saying? They'd be justified in complaining! In that game a bad team can utterly cost you sorely. A lucky shot from an enemy can send you into the negative instantly. What you think will be a 50 game grind to get that shiny plane will in fact be closer to a 100 or so-because the economy actively punishes you for any slight failure, be it yours or your team's.

In MWO, NONE of this happens. That's why I am so incensed by the whining and complaining. You are NEVER punished at any stage-only if you waste the money you have making bad choices.
People don't realise how forgiving this game's economy is compared to the competitors.

While it is true that you do not lose money you do spend a lot of time grinding out c-bills to get things. It is that time investment that people are annoyed with. Everyone needs to decide for themselves if the time investment is worth it or not, and not everyone is going to agree. Perhaps if the game had other goals to work for, or at the very least more content than we do now people wouldn't be has hyper focused on their income rates. People are going to have different opinions on how bad the grind is, and trying to dismiss them by calling them whiny is only going to exacerbate the situation.

kamiko kross, on 19 November 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

A lot of the complainers have been gently told, prodded and then smacked in the face with facts about other titles that we play-yet STILL continue to come back to this thread and put the boot in.
Why?

They come back because they disagree. Do we need to gently tell you, prod you, and then smack you with the fact that opinions are not facts?

kamiko kross, on 19 November 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

As I said at the start, I did not want to offend anyone, but people calling me petty like you did is quite galling when you ( and many of the complainers )are guilty of it sir, and especially in the manner of how you went about it-most insulting.
So, I'm truly sorry if I upset anyone but please consider one thing: This game does not punish you for failure-be it yours or your team's. The only thing that punishes you is impatience.

How exactly am I being petty, or insulting? All I did was ask you to not be rude/condescending when you are voicing your opinion.

[Chronojam]

I'm not sure "you reach the endgame of MWO far faster than you do in War Thunder" is a good thing for MWO. I'm not even sure if it's a good thing to position the Atlas as "endgame content" either, and hate that PGI has referred to it as the "top tier avatar."

[blazing glory]

kamiko kross, on 19 November 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

In MWO, NONE of this happens. That's why I am so incensed by the whining and complaining. You are NEVER punished at any stage-only if you waste the money you have making bad choices.
People don't realise how forgiving this game's economy is compared to the competitors.

I bet in games that DO punish you for losing have higher rewards for winning,or at least doing better then running into the enemy and getting shot to death,I'm not saying you should be punished for your team losing,nor having to pay for your destroyed mech,BUT I do think that you shouldn't get paid if you have less then 2 kill assists/1 spotting assist (the spotting assists is for light mechs who will scout) while you won't get paid you won't lose money,in return for not rewarding you if you do badly (not your team doing badly) the c-bill pay should be at least doubled.(I would want tripled but I fear it MIGHT be a little bit extreme)

Also a suggestion to the OP, you should put up a poll to ask if people would want the c-bill gain doubled,tripled, or to remain the same

Edited by blazing glory, 19 November 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

blazing glory, on 19 November 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

I bet in games that DO punish you for losing have higher rewards for winning,or at least doing better then running into the enemy and getting shot to death,I'm not saying you should be punished for your team losing,nor having to pay for your destroyed mech,BUT I do think that you shouldn't get paid if you have less then 2 kill assists/1 spotting assist (the spotting assists is for light mechs who will scout) while you won't get paid you won't lose money,in return for not rewarding you if you do badly (not your team doing badly) the c-bill pay should be at least doubled.(I would want tripled but I fear it MIGHT be a little bit extreme)

Also a suggestion to the OP, you should put up a poll to ask if people would want the c-bill gain doubled,tripled, or to remain the same

Some good points there my friend.
In WT you CAN get some really nice returns on match-if you overperform by a large margin. But we are talking some seriously good/great games.
In WoT it depends on your tier. As I said before I've had high tier games were I've done more damage than both teams-yet lost the match and lost money.
For me the MWO is great because I never get punished-and that is a BIG plus for me. I absolutely hate it when you do end up with a duff team or bad mm and you get money taken off you for the trouble:) That happens in WoT and WT very frequently.
I play WT sparingly, mostly only when 2 friends play so we can watch each other's six.
I played 2 games solo the other day, one was a horrorshow and one was enjoyable. the first one was just hideous. My 3 fighter team mates all decided it would be a good plan to not climb, then turnfight 5 Zeros in planes HALF as agile. They got shredded to pieces within the space of a minute, that left me vs 5 Zeros. I managed to dive away, I went for my airfield they refused to let me land and leave. I was ganked 5 on 1. I lasted just over 2 mins vs 5 opponents-which I was pleased with scoring a few solid hits-but lost just over 3k lions in total oh and if I wanted to take advantage of the free repair feature....I could not play it for over 6 hours..... I ended that game feeling a bit sick and not happy.
The next game, I managed to perform to an average level getting one kill which I had to really work for as the guy was a great pilot, I even saved a team mate. I scored 16 hits, an air rescue kill and a kill. I made a glorious total of 10k lions for just over 20 mins of gameplay.
Now to put that into perspective for me to go from tier 10 to 20 with the US which I'm currently at I will need a total of: 3,250,000 lions just to BUY my Sabre, that does not include module xp and purchase etc (this is quite fantastical sums past tier 10, for each and every plane) it also does not factor in crew training costs so you can actually fly the planes.....the cost of that btw is 1,117,600 and that is just ONE branch of ONE nation...at that cost assuming I shoot down one plane and survive AND win EVERY match it would take: 436.76 games with an average (for me) gametime of 20 minutes: 145.58 hours. And that's from 50% of the way through the progression, NOT from 0%-100% so the actual time total is much higher....
Now that admittedly napkin math is assuming I WIN EVERY game. Now imagine I lose 50% of my games where I lose 4-5k lions.....that makes 873 games and...291 hours.......(bear with me here-my maths is really bad)

I could have bought my 1st Atlas after my first 25 games if I had wanted, as it turned out I bought three Kintaros instead.
I got given when I started:
1 day of premium time free.
25 games worth of 500k+ free money thrown at me.
I never lost a penny in those 25 games.
I alternated between the four trial mechs for variety.

Now take into account that:
A bad team never costs me
My own poor play and herp derp moments don't cost me
My only limitations on my mech buying are the boundries of my own patience...
So perhaps, some of you can see why I just don't understand what is so bad about the economy and why it taking a bit of time isn't really an issue? 90 games for an Atlas vs potentially 873 for a Sabre?
Now if people were complaining that XYZ module is not worth 6 million, or that UAV/spotting rewards are not high enough or price to damage ratio is not correct then fair enough, good points. But complaining that you can't get what you want at the rate you want it when other titles are actually worse...I just can't understand where you are coming from

In fact I'll change my tack-perhaps the economy is bad after all-but not because it takes a few days to get a mech....


Btw none of that was aimed at you Blazing Glory-I just quoted you for a frame to my post.

Edited by kamiko kross, 20 November 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Scratx]

My, looks like somebody actually managed to take World of Tank's progression model and make it horribly worse. *claps*

All good points. Economy could use some tuning but it's a very gentle grind compared to WoT.

[WarHippy]

kamiko kross, on 20 November 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Now take into account that:
A bad team never costs me
My own poor play and herp derp moments don't cost me
My only limitations on my mech buying are the boundries of my own patience...
So perhaps, some of you can see why I just don't understand what is so bad about the economy and why it taking a bit of time isn't really an issue? 90 games for an Atlas vs potentially 873 for a Sabre?
Now if people were complaining that XYZ module is not worth 6 million, or that UAV/spotting rewards are not high enough or price to damage ratio is not correct then fair enough, good points. But complaining that you can't get what you want at the rate you want it when other titles are actually worse...I just can't understand where you are coming from

Just because you feel other games are worse when it comes to grind does not mean the grind is good here. It is far from black and white, and many feel adjustments need to be made. It isn't like people are asking for the sky, rather they would like to see the old income rate return.

Thanks for those numbers by the way. If those are even a little accurate I can safely say I will not play those even though the subject matter holds some interest. Personally I hate having to unlock equipment that is needlessly hidden behind arbitrary time sinks when all I want is compelling game play that focuses on the strategy more than the carrot on the stick. The only reason I tolerate it here is because it is Mechwarrior.

Edited by WarHippy, 21 November 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

WarHippy, on 21 November 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Just because you feel other games are worse when it comes to grind does not mean the grind is good here. It is far from black and white, and many feel adjustments need to be made. It isn't like people are asking for the sky, rather they would like to see the old income rate return.

Thanks for those numbers by the way. If those are even a little accurate I can safely say I will not play those even though the subject matter holds some interest. Personally I hate having to unlock equipment that is needlessly hidden behind arbitrary time sinks when all I want is compelling game play that focuses on the strategy more than the carrot on the stick. The only reason I tolerate it here is because it is Mechwarrior.

I thought I'd dismiss my personal emnity towards you and take you up on your points:)
The thing that got me mad, was that people were deliberately blowing out of proportion the economy and making some ....shaky counter arguments.
Now, do bear in mind those figures are Me playing and I'm not amazing by any stretch. I hit average performance mostly. But the significant factor here is that it was from 10-20, not 0-20. The WT economy was fairly similiar to MWO a few patches ago, you only really lost money when you pulled a proper herp derp game or your team failed in spectacular fashion.
Gaijin then wheeled out the nerf hammer from hell:) My 45k AB battle results went down to 15k maximum....plane costs went up as did repairs.
Providing you put your crew xp to repair skill you can get away with level 4-5 for free if you can wait 15 mins between matches. It is fairly fun up to around level 10-but a point to make here, every single last mate I played with has stopped trying to progress. One made it to the ME163 and can only afford to play it every few days....
Personally, I'm fine with my tier 3 Hurricane:)
Also bear in mind I did not even factor the xp requirements for each tier also AND the xp requirements for the modules you'd have to buy as well....

It's why I was so nonplussed about the raging over the "grind" here as in comparison, it really is the most relaxed and lenient f2p model I have experienced:) I was genuinely shocked when I realised they were throwing money at me for first 25 games AND giving me free premium to maximise that. I could not believe I didn't lose money!
It's also why I was unintentionally rude to the guys who were basically saying "I can't get what I want fast as I'd like."
This will be the last post I make on this subject, as frankly it's been said what needs to be:)

The MWO economy REALLY is NOT as bad as people make out-especially when you have tried the so called greener grass!

Edited by kamiko kross, 21 November 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Sephlock]

Kyrie, on 14 October 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Did we ever get the dev update on this issue?

http://mwomercs.com/...ork-to-artemis/

[Kyrie]

Sephlock, on 21 November 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ork-to-artemis/

I must assign you points for what I perceive to be sarcasm. Well played sir. :-)

[Sephlock]

Kyrie, on 22 November 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

I must assign you points for what I perceive to be sarcasm. Well played sir. :-)

No, that's their answer... increasing the grind .

Our attempts to reason with the devs about lessening the c-bill grind (and logical balance changes) went pretty much like this- up to and including the ending.



"I'm going to make LRMs decent again... unless of course... the coin says differently."

It did .

Edited by Sephlock, 22 November 2013 - 11:03 AM.