172 replies to this topic

[One Medic Army]

Tennex, on 13 August 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

there is no correlation between mech hitbox and armor multiplication. sure you can argue there is a relationship but does 2x armor justify the damage gained from aiming? does 1.5x?

its impossible to say

though since there is such a heavy heavy favoritism for assault mechs' i'd say 2x armor overcompensated for damage gained by aim.

There's a definite correlation between speed of mech, size of hitbox, and concentration of incoming damage (and miss fraction while we're at it).
Otherwise you would not see so many people complaining about how hard it is to kill light mechs. (Not that I have issues, I accept that being harder to hit and harder to concentrate damage on is an advantage of the lighter chassis).

Edited by One Medic Army, 13 August 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[Tennex]

One Medic Army, on 13 August 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

There's a definite correlation between speed of mech, size of hitbox, and concentration of incoming damage (and miss fraction while we're at it).
Otherwise you would not see so many people complaining about how hard it is to kill light mechs.

thats just a minor annoyance. They still can't dish back the damage for it to make a difference, and as such there is still a maximum of only 2 light mechs per game. and maybe 6 assaults.

An atlas might be annoyed that a spider is buzzing around. But the atlas will still 1 shot the spider, when it might take 100+ shots from the spider to do anything to the atlas.

Edited by Tennex, 13 August 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Tennex, on 13 August 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

thats just a minor annoyance. They still can't dish back the damage for it to make a difference, and as such there is still a maximum of only 2 light mechs per game. and maybe 6 assaults.

If the lights you see can't dish it out, then you're not seeing good light pilots, which are a bit rare.

Edited by One Medic Army, 13 August 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[Tennex]

One Medic Army, on 13 August 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

If the lights you see can't dish it out, then you're not seeing good light pilots.

they can't dish it out because of math. Thats just how much damage they will do, against that amount of armor. Which wont change regardless of pilot skill.

what piloting skill may help with is prolonging survivability and maybe a bit better aiming.

Regardless the amount of skill it takes to overcome that wide survivability gap between assaults and lights(throw medium in there too), people would rather just play assaults. And they do

[One Medic Army]

I'd argue that at least part of it is that in a light you need to fire on the move, and keep track of both piloting and firing.
In an assault most people just stand still shooting, no multitasking required.

That's one of the easiest things about piloting the Jager btw, since torso-twisting makes almost no difference you can just ignore it and keep face-on to enemies for almost no reduction in survivability or effectiveness.

[Lucian Nostra]

Natanael Cormac, on 13 August 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

One possible solution would be to use the Atlas as a model and apply a straightforward bump to all armor values based on the atlas. So the Atlas would keep it's armor value at around 614, while the Commando would get bumped up to about 368.

Holy crap! O.o I really hope this is.. some sorta... troll or.. I dunno

No way... just no way.. Lights are already plenty deadly and live long enough as is when piloted decently.

I have an overall K/D of 1.35

Jenner 7D - 1.75
Commando 2D - 2.37
TDK - 1.40
Raven 3L - 1.79
Spider 5D - 2.39

Except my Death's Knell I already break my average K/D in my lights they don't need to be even better than they already are!

[Saint Rigid]

Is 368 a serious suggestion for the Commando? NO.

It was an example, and it was intended to be a little on the extreme side. But I still think that my point stands.

What you have to remember is, the ideal Predator of the Light Mech... is the MEDIUM mech. Now, at the moment, Mediums are kind of lacking. They aren't the fastest cats in town (lights) they aren't the most well armed dudes in the shoot out (assaults) and they aren't a good balance of Good Firepower, Reasonable Speed, and Good Armor (Heavy). The inherent durability of the current light mechs is due to poor Hit Registration, which the designers have announced they are aware of AND are working on, and it is due to the lackluster population of the Medium world.

People who are talking about how unkillable light mechs are tend to do so from the high altitude cockpit of a Jaegermech or a Stalker (for example, but not limited to lol). I tend to see less Cicada pilots complain about light mechs (as they are too busy complaining about their own hitboxes, and rightly so lol). As hit detection is improved and as Medium Mechs are improved Light mechs will see a small decline (they will still be popular mind you. They are on a very specific end of a min-max curve, not to mention that they are low cost, and just pretty darn cool to boot).

-Cormac

[Khobai]

Quote

there is no correlation between mech hitbox and armor multiplication. sure you can argue there is a relationship but does 2x armor justify the damage gained from aiming? does 1.5x?

its impossible to say

though since there is such a heavy heavy favoritism for assault mechs' i'd say 2x armor overcompensated for damage gained by aim.

WRONG. Its not impossible to say. In fact its very easy to say.

In tabletop a mechs center torso gets hit 20% of the time. In MWO a mechs center torso get hits potentially 100% of the time. That is upto five times more damage. So double armor is actually quite inadequate for dealing with upto five times more damage. And thats not even accounting for convergence.

And then theres convergence... Convergence effectively allows you to combine multiple smaller weapons into a single larger weapon. In a lot of ways this circumvents the safeguards in TT which required you to take high tonnage and high crit slots weapons in order to do 20+ damage to a single location. But in MWO, because of convergence, weapons like ERPPCs can do it for half the tonnage and crits of an AC/20. Not only does that make weapons like the AC/20 way less scary, but it makes weapons like ERPPCs ridiculously powerful, because of their sheer damage to tonnage/critslot advantage.

So its no wonder mechs feel like theyre made of paper. Double armor doesnt even begin to balance that out.

Edited by Khobai, 13 August 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[Tesunie]

I think I see where the OP is going with this, and I still feel his math is slightly off.

When Armor got doubled, so did Internal Structure. However, each still got doubled at the same rate, which means that the actual HP of a mech increased overall by 2.5 instead of just 2.0 (100% vs 150% increase). However, the numbers still got increased by the same amount, which means no one mech gained extra armor over another (from the math). If anything, the calculations of how many shots of an AC20 it will take to drop X mech didn't consider accurate shooting (or inaccurate shooting in the case of lights), and didn't include "partial" tons of armor.

To be honest, I laugh at mechs that have PPCs and ACs (except for the LBXAC10, as it's splash can still reliably hit) when I pilot my Spider. I can normally dance around my target, unless they are very good with the weapons, and receive no damage because they can't hit me. Lasers on the other hand... or players who are accurate with those larger weapons, I tend to turn tail and run away.

And, for the record, I have my Spider set up as "Half a Quickdraw" right now. For a 30 ton mech, I have 1 large laser and 2 med lasers. My Quickdraw has 2 Large lasers and 4 Med lasers at 60 tons. I'd have to say that light mechs can still get some oomph of weapons in them if one builds them carefully. (Still trying to find that nice weapon combo for my Jenner, and trying to learn how to protect that CT from... well... everything. I get so much "mystery" damage that I don't know where it's coming from in my Jenners...)


So far, I still do not see any mathematical or statistical problem as to double armor somehow causing an unfair imbalance. More math is needed explaining the "problem" with double armor (and Internal Structure as a subsequent increase as well). However, I did hear an imbalance between weapon refire rates when compared to TT damage values, as well as ammo per ton values as well. This could possibly use more discussion and math, and might be leading onto a better point than the current subject. (Unless my math is wrong, which I doubt at the moment, but it is possible.)

[Saint Rigid]

I think that is a good point Kobai.

Perhaps there is room for adding armor in specific sections (namely the CT) in order to add longevity of combat as well as some more strategic decisions while shooting someone. For example, more CT armor could promote the dismantling of a mech rather than coring it.

[Unbound Inferno]

Tesunie, on 13 August 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

If doubling the armor is unbalancing (even if it is done clearly and evenly across the board and provides no mathematical benefit I am aware of, if I'm wrong, provide more math)

I can't provide math, but its not even across the board like we all wish and see for hard armor numbers.

Light mecs are faster and harder to hit, each point of armor holds a higher weight for that fact.

An assault is a slow, lumbering target - and its speed isn't improved. The additional armor holds less weight for them.

Same case for any between. The lightest mechs benefit the most by having more chances to continue to scurry around with less hits landing - while the heavier mechs suffer greater.


While I agree Mediums are too fragile for their size and slower speed, lights are far too tough. Likewise although Heavies balance reasonably well now in most cases the assaults suffer greatly.


Its not an even return for the weight class, it can never be due to speed and accuracy of human error.

[OneEyed Jack]

Tennex, on 13 August 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

200% of an assaul's armor 550 is more than 200% than a light's 250 armor. at the same time an AC20 is still going to do 20 damage.

But significantly less with 2x armor to an assault

A highlander has 166 armor in CT. A Raven has 44. AC20 remove all of a highlander's armor in 8 hits and all of the raven's in 3 hits.

With double armor Highlander's 332 armor and raven's 88. AC20 will remove the highlander's armor in 17 hits. and strip the raven's armor in 5 hits.
Where there only used to be a 5 AC20's difference between how many shots it took to kill an assault mech vs the light mech, now there is a 12 AC20 difference.


The double armor buff made assault mechs significantly more survivable compared to lighter mechs. Simply because they start with a higher armor pool.

It will take twice as many successful hits, which is the real key. When the Highlander is half it's current height and can run 150 kph, you'll have a point. Until then, the ability to absorb hits is the trade-off for being able to avoid getting hit in the first place, which includes both difficulty of landing a significant hit and the ability to pick your fights and/or maneuver outside the enemy's arc of fire.

[Edit]

I knew something was funky there, though I wasn't paying enough attention for it to sink in right away.

A Highlander has 87 max HP CT, and a raven 33 (TT numbers), which is doubled to 174 and 66, respectively, not 332 and 88.

In AC20 shots, that's a change from 5 to 9 for the Highlander, and 2 to 4 for the Raven, but that's only because of the need to round up for the largest single pinpoint damage in the game, which is a completely biased way to measure. But if you want to use that measurement, it's actually a bigger increase for the harder-to-hit Raven.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 13 August 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[Tesunie]

Unbound Inferno, on 13 August 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

I can't provide math, but its not even across the board like we all wish and see for hard armor numbers.

Light mecs are faster and harder to hit, each point of armor holds a higher weight for that fact.

An assault is a slow, lumbering target - and its speed isn't improved. The additional armor holds less weight for them.

Same case for any between. The lightest mechs benefit the most by having more chances to continue to scurry around with less hits landing - while the heavier mechs suffer greater.


While I agree Mediums are too fragile for their size and slower speed, lights are far too tough. Likewise although Heavies balance reasonably well now in most cases the assaults suffer greatly.


Its not an even return for the weight class, it can never be due to speed and accuracy of human error.

I am not aware of any mech that didn't get a clear double armor. Then again, I have not picked apart every mech placed into MWO with it's TT counterpart. So, you could be right, you might be wrong. I am not sure at this time. All I know is (if it is indeed truly double), the math says it isn't an imbalance.

You have a good point. Fast mechs benefit more from their armor, but only if they are moving fast (not to say a slower light can't work well). That is their advantage. However, the OP is saying that fast, light mechs are not surviving well enough and don't benefit from double armor as much as an assault/heavy does.

Agreed about Assaults. They have heavier armor, but are slower. This makes them easier to hit. However, don't forget that (as of current) there is a hard speed cap. Many players are paying and placing in the largest engine into their light mechs, and they aren't really going as fast as they should. (Unless this has changed without my knowledge.) An Assault does not pay for their speed and not benefit fully from it. Your statement here is actually the exact opposite of the OPs point of view. You have good points, but from what I can see and play myself I feel they are fairly well balanced. The Spider (from my playing experience) has a lot of what light mechs should have (minus when they are standing still and not taking damage, which is wrong), survivability. I survive a lot better in my Spider than I can my Jenner. I think some of that is hitbox size. My Spider gets damage splashed all over, spreading it out so my armor takes full effect. My Jenner tends to take damage just to it's CT, nullifying the benefits of even having armor on my side toros.

Mediums feel like they are too large for their tonnage. If you fix the size of them to be closer to a light mech (for the most part), I think you will find many of the medium mechs problems diminishing. The problem is that some Mediums stand almost as tall as the heavies or even assaults. (The Stalker is an exception to the size rule, as most of it's bulk and size is placed more horizontal instead of vertical. He's got large barn sides, but less height. Atlas and Awesome are the other way around, having taller height, but thinner sides. Especially the Awesome. Very thin on the side profile.) Mix that with really great convergence and pin point accuracy... and you got problem.

Their are reasons light mechs are around. If all they did was die really fast, no one would make them and no one would use them. Hovertanks would probably take their place as scouts, being cheaper and able to maintain speed over more terrain types.


I think more problems would be solved with a slower convergence rate (with probably having your reticule turn gold when you have a full convergence on a target) than with any armor/structure tweaks. It doesn't even have to be delayed by much, maybe even a 10-20% delay could make all the difference. Snap shots would become harder, and aimed shots you take your time on lining up would become more rewarding. Might even slow down combat some (and maybe reduce the "twisting to spread damage" tactic that is present here, but never existed in any form of lore I am aware of), forcing people to take their time to aim, holding their shots for a moment before petting go with the trigger. (Fast mechs would greatly benefit and be penalized by such a change. They can't be hit too easily, and they can't hit anyone else too easily. Would be like playing a Spider on TT then. move max speed, jump, dodge a lot of damage but probably not hit anything either.)

(Warning: This post was written when I was very tired, and likely to contain many grammatical errors in it. Sorry.)

[Hexenhammer]

The reason why mechs in the TT survived as long as they did is because of 10 seconds turns where a weapon could only be fired once and hit locations where randomized.

It was tried in MWO during closed beta and mechs were paper tigers. Just think what the game would be like with half the armor. Everyone would be running 6 PPC stalkers again because just about every shot (3ppcs) would rip a limb off if it hit.

No if anything, hit detection needs to be fixed, Mechs need to be sized and some of them need smaller center torsos. I'm looking at your Kintaro.




The atlas would have 47pts of armor on the ct one 6PPC alpha strike would take it down.

[OneEyed Jack]

Hexenhammer, on 13 August 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

The reason why mechs in the TT survived as long as they did is because of 10 seconds turns where a weapon could only be fired once and hit locations where randomized.

It was tried in MWO during closed beta and mechs were paper tigers. Just think what the game would be like with half the armor. Everyone would be running 6 PPC stalkers again because just about every shot (3ppcs) would rip a limb off if it hit.

No if anything, hit detection needs to be fixed, Mechs need to be sized and some of them need smaller center torsos. I'm looking at your Kintaro.




The atlas would have 47pts of armor on the ct one 6PPC alpha strike would take it down.

That's because of pinpoint convergence, not armor amounts.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's because of pinpoint convergence, not armor amounts.

Exactly. 6 PPC mechs are perfectly fine in TT because the damage spreads out evenly across all the hit locations.

But convergence basically takes those 6 PPCs and turns them into a deathstar PPC that does 60 damage to a single location.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hexenhammer, on 13 August 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

The reason why mechs in the TT survived as long as they did is because of 10 seconds turns where a weapon could only be fired once and hit locations where randomized.

It was tried in MWO during closed beta and mechs were paper tigers. Just think what the game would be like with half the armor. Everyone would be running 6 PPC stalkers again because just about every shot (3ppcs) would rip a limb off if it hit.

No if anything, hit detection needs to be fixed, Mechs need to be sized and some of them need smaller center torsos. I'm looking at your Kintaro.




The atlas would have 47pts of armor on the ct one 6PPC alpha strike would take it down.

You do realize that Mech's die much faster on TT than in MWO. Ten turns of TT combat, is less than 2 minutes of MWO combat.

[Khobai]

Quote

You do realize that Mech's die much faster on TT than in MWO. Ten turns of TT combat, is less than 2 minutes of MWO combat.

They dont actually. My triple UAC/5 Jagermech can kill an Atlas in 12 seconds.

I have never seen a mech kill an Atlas in one round in TT except with a lucky headshot.

[OneEyed Jack]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

You do realize that Mech's die much faster on TT than in MWO. Ten turns of TT combat, is less than 2 minutes of MWO combat.

Sure, but it usually takes hours of play if there's more than a few mechs per side. At least my games always have. But then, we BS and argue as much as, or more than, we play.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 13 August 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

They dont actually. My triple UAC/5 Jagermech can kill an Atlas in 12 seconds.

I have never seen a mech kill an Atlas in one round in TT except with a lucky headshot.

I have. a Player was using 5 Large Pulse Lasers (C), tied to a Targeting Computer -45 armor 5 Structure. 2 Crits CT, both Gyro.