255 replies to this topic

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

N0MAD, on 15 August 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

I disagree, NGNG is a commercial venture, part of their revenue is derived from (MWO) PGI even if its not (or is) directly paid by PGI, and their interaction with the devs is based on the devs controlling what can and cannot be talked about when they have their cosy little chats.

Two different points of view ... they do ask questions that the devs won't answer and have brought up difficult topics--to include discussing lack of communication with the players with Garth, who is probably one of their biggest advocates--but NGNG accepts "I can't tell you" or "we're thinking about it" or "it's not a priority right now" as a satisfactory answer.

In trying to stay positive about the game, NGNG keeps their focus on the things they like and does not dwell on the things that annoy them or that they disagree with. I am frequently trying to find more information about MW:O, and will read or listen to almost anything. I've also listened to every episode of the VCRS, for example ... in some ways it's more informative, and a much less "rose colored glasses" view of the game ... it's definitely more entertaining.

I just try to see things from other people's point of view, and find common ground so that those with differing opinions can come to an agreement ... it's one of the things I'm pretty good at.

[Windies]

DisasterMedic, on 15 August 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Hard data on the number of purchased founders accounts versus the number of active founders accounts would be interesting.

I don't think they care at this point because the founders are not their targeted demographic anymore. It would be great for us to know how many have stuck around, but I'm sure to PGI it just further solidifies the point that they need to grab the casual F2P market and try to make their mark there rather than catering to the core of Battletech/Mechwarrior fans.

[Windies]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 15 August 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

Two different points of view ... they do ask questions that the devs won't answer and have brought up difficult topics--to include discussing lack of communication with the players with Garth, who is probably one of their biggest advocates--but NGNG accepts "I can't tell you" or "we're thinking about it" or "it's not a priority right now" as a satisfactory answer.

In trying to stay positive about the game, NGNG keeps their focus on the things they like and does not dwell on the things that annoy them or that they disagree with. I am frequently trying to find more information about MW:O, and will read or listen to almost anything. I've also listened to every episode of the VCRS, for example ... in some ways it's more informative, and a much less "rose colored glasses" view of the game ... it's definitely more entertaining.

I just try to see things from other people's point of view, and find common ground so that those with differing opinions can come to an agreement ... it's one of the things I'm pretty good at.

Fact of the matter is they sold out to PGI/IGP for exclusivity. It's good for PGI because it gives them a loyal PR and promotional channel and it's good for NGNG because they get kickbacks or perks and what not Et cetera Et cetera. This was pretty much alluded to during the #2 Townhall by people who know and work with NGNG.

With that said, Do I think that makes them reprehensible or terrible people or do I think that makes NGNG bad? Of course not. However I think they are simply a business and like any business, their bottom line comes before anyone else's except PGI or IGP, and because of that I think they would be a bad avenue to approach for a meaningful discussion about anything critical of PGI. PGI doesn't want to face this and that's the plain and simple fact.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Windies, on 15 August 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

... their bottom line comes before anyone else's except PGI or IGP ...

I may be mistaken, but while NGNG is careful (sometimes to a fault) to be positive about the game, I think it would take more than the "pennies" (to quote Vercinix's statement in Town Hall #2) that they receive from IGP for them to allow IGP or PGI to censor their content (beyond adhering to the NDA that I assume they're under for any looks they get at any upcoming content).

In my observation, their podcast did not change significantly when they started receiving support from IGP.

Quote

PGI doesn't want to face this and that's the plain and simple fact just my opinion, man.

Source? If not, I fixed that for you.

If you haven't listened to NGNG Podcast #82 (recorded about a week after the original #SaveMWO post started), I recommend it, for insight into the NGNG crew's opinion about what the fans (including #SaveMWO's supporters) want ... if you don't want to listen to the whole hour, listen to 25:00-40:00.

I think a debate between a couple of the #SaveMWO organizers and the NGNG crew would be interesting. To get "your foot in the door", I think the right approach is to first convince them that #SaveMWO wants to be a positive force in support of a better game. It might not get a response from the devs, but it would be another avenue to get their attention.

Just curious ... if the VCRS had a developer interview segment for their podcast, would they also be selling out?

[PeekaBoo I C Ju]

Windies, on 15 August 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

I don't think they care at this point because the founders are not their targeted demographic anymore. It would be great for us to know how many have stuck around, but I'm sure to PGI it just further solidifies the point that they need to grab the casual F2P market and try to make their mark there rather than catering to the core of Battletech/Mechwarrior fans.

without the core fans, they have nothing.....and if that is really how they feel, perhaps it is fate they go under

[fil5000]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 15 August 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

I think a debate between a couple of the #SaveMWO organizers and the NGNG crew would be interesting. To get "your foot in the door", I think the right approach is to first convince them that #SaveMWO wants to be a positive force in support of a better game. It might not get a response from the devs, but it would be another avenue to get their attention.

What would the point be? SeanLang and Bombadil made their opinions of this movement very plain and shouted down the other people on the podcast that tried to offer anything to the contrary. Why would having a debate with them be of any interest to anyone? If the fact that the output of the townhalls has been polite, civil and generally positive about the possibilities for MWO isn't enough to convince people that this is supposed to be a positive force, nothing will.

[Chronojam]

I think some people are just afraid of being "left out" but all they need to do is swing by and they're included. The invitation's pretty open!

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

fil5000, on 15 August 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

What would the point be? SeanLang and Bombadil made their opinions of this movement very plain and shouted down the other people on the podcast that tried to offer anything to the contrary. Why would having a debate with them be of any interest to anyone? If the fact that the output of the townhalls has been polite, civil and generally positive about the possibilities for MWO isn't enough to convince people that this is supposed to be a positive force, nothing will.

A significant portion of Town Hall #2 was about "should #SaveMWO approach NGNG?" ... it sounded to me like the consensus was "it can't hurt".

If you want to have a dialog with someone and try to convince them to understand and respect your point of view, you need to try to understand and respect theirs.

If you want to ignore a successful part of the community that is reaching new players, old players, and the developers ... fine.

In my opinion, the NGNG crew does not represent the competitive part of the community and often lets their hopeful optimism cloud their vision.

Also in my opinion, if #SaveMWO comes across as a bunch of know-it-alls who believe they are entitled to an answer NOW, they will continue to be heard, but not responded to.

I just want to know what PGI is working on ... what can I use to convince people to join the game ... is it going to get better? When? How? ... I will use and support every resource I can find, including #SaveMWO and NGNG, to try and find out.

[Egomane]

We keep getting reports about this thread, that it is re-opened after we send the former thread to Kaetetôã.

I just want to point out, that this is wrong.

The first thread has been moved, after the second one has been created.
The second one has been moved, after the third one has been created.

Please refrain from reporting this thread with this false assumption again.

Both old threads became, despite repeated calls for staying constructive and friendly by the OP and sometimes us moderators, anything but that and earned their new resting place. If this thread becomes like the other two, despite several calls already, to not make the same mistakes, it will go there as well.

Thunderklaws, on 15 August 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

It is kinda funny that those supporting voices have so far avoided showing up for the town halls twice now.

My opinion:
I don't feel any of the topics brought up by #saveMWO, is as important as this movement is trying to make it out to be. I enjoyed the game, the way it is, for the last 14 months now and while there might be some problems now and then, they keep getting adressed and adjusted. A like or dislike of how these things are adjusted isn't worth a #savethegame movement.

So to answer that quote above, with a question of my own:
If I don't feel that your concerns are important, why should I waste time discussing them with you?

By all means: Have your little rebellion and try to shape the game into something you like more. But don't be surprised, if you should be successfull, if others will then cry out, because, in their eyes, you just hurt the game.

[fil5000]

Egomane, on 16 August 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

My opinion:
I don't feel any of the topics brought up by #saveMWO, is as important as this movement is trying to make it out to be. I enjoyed the game, the way it is, for the last 14 months now and while there might be some problems now and then, they keep getting adressed and adjusted. A like or dislike of how these things are adjusted isn't worth a #savethegame movement.

So to answer that quote above, with a question of my own:
If I don't feel that your concerns are important, why should I waste time discussing them with you?

By all means: Have your little rebellion and try to shape the game into something you like more. But don't be surprised, if you should be successfull, if others will then cry out, because, in their eyes, you just hurt the game.

I trust that these opinions, despite some of the deliberately antagonistic wording ("little rebellion") will not affect your neutral moderation of this thread.

[Egomane]

I didn't intend any deliberate antagonistic wording. It's simply how I see it.

And no... I don't let personal feelings interfere in my moderation. If I see myself getting in danger of doing so, I take a step back and let someone else handle it. But we are getting off-topic here, please continue on the thread topic.

[Moku]

New accounts don't really mean more new players. Most of them are probably new players taking advantage of the new player c-bill bonus so they can acquire additional mechs to play. Also a bunch of current players testing out the new player experience.

Most players who join units or groups notice that their inactive list of friends is pretty huge. This is in an ideal environment where we try to help and encourage teammates to play, win, and have fun.

Another major trend we see is that recruitment into merc corp units and clans are not what they used to be like earlier in the year. My unit barely gets any bites. I would say one new recruit a week would be great for my unit. Right now it's more like 1 every two or three weeks. Of course there are a couple huge units that attract a lot of new pilots but even they have to become more aggressive recruiting on the forums since they also see the lack of new players interested in joining units. A healthy game with a steady stream of new players would result in much more incoming recruits for all units.

The main MWO public teamspeak servers used to be thriving. Nowadays not so much.

I've noticed the 12 mans are decreasing player activity. If you're in a group of 4 and have 8 other players you really can't control the battle as much as before. If you're a single player with 11 others then you're at the will of everyone on your team even if you are an excellent player.

12 man drop queues are just as bad or worse than 8 man group drops were. Many units had a hard time just getting 8 players together and now just trying to get 12 isn't even feasible. Are the developers under the impression that we got to play this game like forming up a friggen raid or something?

There will be no real community if they don't encourage teams, clans, and factions. If you consider having to drop with 12 random people on one side and hoping to play as a team is fun, then this game is ideal for you. They should of just created a 16 man or 24 man free for all drop mode. If they maybe dropped us into the house faction lances that would help a little to focus on some sort of purpose to this game. Of course everyone will argue everything is eventually going to happen, give them time, or it's not our concern right now. It is a great concern when they talked about great merc corp unit and faction features they were supposedly working on since the beginning of time, but instead come back and steadily introduce several game mechanic features that we really were not interested in. We're just left with a minimum viable product and minimum enjoyment.

[Windies]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 16 August 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

A significant portion of Town Hall #2 was about "should #SaveMWO approach NGNG?" ... it sounded to me like the consensus was "it can't hurt".

If you want to have a dialog with someone and try to convince them to understand and respect your point of view, you need to try to understand and respect theirs.

If you want to ignore a successful part of the community that is reaching new players, old players, and the developers ... fine.

In my opinion, the NGNG crew does not represent the competitive part of the community and often lets their hopeful optimism cloud their vision.

Also in my opinion, if #SaveMWO comes across as a bunch of know-it-alls who believe they are entitled to an answer NOW, they will continue to be heard, but not responded to.

I just want to know what PGI is working on ... what can I use to convince people to join the game ... is it going to get better? When? How? ... I will use and support every resource I can find, including #SaveMWO and NGNG, to try and find out.

Personally I think if we found someone to take our concerns and voice them through NGNG, even if it was done in the most perfect and respectable way, it would just end up being a shitshow where we end up being misconstrued into some rabid fan base out to destroy the game because we don't follow the status quo which is that everything is fine and naysayers are on an island and are looking for answers/fixes for issue's rather than the typical " I have no recollection of that Senator" type responses.

That would be my biggest concern.

[Kraven Kor]

Egomane, on 16 August 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

So to answer that quote above, with a question of my own:
If I don't feel that your concerns are important, why should I waste time discussing them with you?

Approximately 5,000 players "signed on" through #SaveMWO. At a conservative estimate, $1.5 million per year in MC purchases for Premium Time.

Constant bad press on every outlet available - Facebook, Twitter, the forums, everywhere.

Countless Founders who have left and are likely never to return unless PGI turns this around to somehow begin to address the many concerns and complaints.

There are a few reasons to #GiveA@#$%.

[Kraven Kor]

Thunderklaws, on 16 August 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

to play devil's advocate, better than 5000 were against 3rd person view and they were laughed off as the "vocal minority".
Numbers seem not to matter

I've admitted to this myself.

We may in fact be a statistical anomaly and "not matter in the grand scheme of things."

I think it is incredibly sad that they are, apparently, willing to simply write off the many Founders who are gone or going or who have stopped paying or demanded refunds due to this game clearly (to them/me/us) not living up to the initial promises, in any way shape or form, so far as the decisions and design direction PGI has taken.

[Chronojam]

Egomane, on 16 August 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

Both old threads became, despite repeated calls for staying constructive and friendly by the OP and sometimes us moderators, anything but that and earned their new resting place. If this thread becomes like the other two, despite several calls already, to not make the same mistakes, it will go there as well.

Funny, I don't remember seeing any of the Ask The Devs or Feedback threads getting sent to K-Town despite much greater negativity and bickering.

If this thread is getting constant fraudulent reports and you see particular posters causing trouble, perhaps you could do your job and address the fraudulent reporters and place the offending posters on moderation approval. I've never seen the mods hesitate to use that, especially with Niko Snow's latest open threat to steal the voice of dissenting opinions in the current Ask The Devs.

[Desdain]

Stormwolf, on 14 August 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

Yeah, it's simply not there, just compare them to other games that have recently gotten funded with kickstarters:

War for the Overworld: Created by Dungeon Keeper fans for Dungeon Keeper fans, I've posted on their boards and these people nice and open for suggestions. Even Peter Molyneux has given them his blessing.

Star Citizen and Shroud of the Avatar: Created by the guys who created Wing Commander and Ultima respectively, these guys are actively asking people for designs and features they want to see. Some creature/object designs for Shroud of the Avatar are already being implemented as we speak.

You can really see the passion these people have for their games and they are really putting in a lot of effort.

I really don't get that vibe from PGI though.

I believe this model for game development (the one PGI is using) is on its last days. That's the one where the developer makes the game they want and tries to sell it. Crowd funded games allow us to have a better voice by letting us pay for features we want. The developer pitches an idea to us, we kick it around and in the end agree to pay for a certain game.

[Viper69]

Chronojam, on 16 August 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

Funny, I don't remember seeing any of the Ask The Devs or Feedback threads getting sent to K-Town despite much greater negativity and bickering.

If this thread is getting constant fraudulent reports and you see particular posters causing trouble, perhaps you could do your job and address the fraudulent reporters and place the offending posters on moderation approval. I've never seen the mods hesitate to use that, especially with Niko Snow's latest open threat to steal the voice of dissenting opinions in the current Ask The Devs.

No doubt, this thread is the most heavily moderated thing around. I think they delete any dissenting opinion no matter how benign its worded. I agree Nikko Snows post in the ask the devs was insulting and him/her deleting honest questions was an even greater insult.

[Chronojam]

Viper69 in all reality they're probably trying to get a response, just so they can roll around in it. Trying to provoke a negative response, hmm. That sounds suspiciously like trolling.

Then again what do you expect from somebody with a bird in his signature? He's got two of them. You know what those people are like.

Edited by Chronojam, 16 August 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Viper69, on 16 August 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

We are trying to stay on topic but you guys in green keep moderating our posts.Unless we are being insulting or swearing there is no need to delete posts.

One of the posts deleted that I had quoted had literally no reason to be moderated that I can see...