198 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

Donnie Silveray, on 14 August 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Or you are misunderstanding what the devs are talking about. They are currently under crunch time and have a boatload of things far more important to the core gameplay to add rather than risk spending months on a possibly fruitless venture on experimenting on how the reticle targets things. You should ask them AFTER release regarding this possibility rather than accusing them of laziness when they're already up to their necks in work.

I'll quote you on that when the game hits launch and we have 1 more mech, but everything else is the same as of now.

Edited by TexAss, 14 August 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Xanquil]

There are ways of removing pinpoint alphas without ever effecting single weapon accuracy. The easiest to do is to use an something already in the game. Like using the SRM mechanic when firing more than one weapon, it isn't the best but it is likely the easiest to do. It also does nothing to firing one weapon at a time. Even better it has the possibility of removing the ghost heat mess. Even this will need to be adjusted, but it is better than what we currently have.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Dimento Graven, on 14 August 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

I like what I posted earlier for a non-CoF means of fixing this:

That is a cone of fire. You just added some modifiers to it. And once again the modifiers you suggest sound like the kind of thing the Devs have already indicated they'd have trouble putting into the game.

While I'd PREFER not to go the cone of fire route. If that's what it takes to get rid of instant pinpoint convergence, so be it.

[Pht]

MrZakalwe, on 14 August 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

There have been many posts dropped around this forum blaming convergence for all the world's ills and I can't help but disagree.

Cone of fire...

There's something different than the cone-of-fire concept.

Something that would only take simple addition and a 2-12 range math equations, without removing player skill as the deciding factor.

http://mwomercs.com/...different-idea/

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would not really work in a game where a medium mech can legitimately fire 8 guns at once...

This is not a problem for the fixes for the pinpoint damage mechanic.

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and some people have even suggested random chances to hit in direct immitation of tabletop.

If I want that I'll play Mechwarrior: Tactics.

I suspect from your post you don't even understand the TT combat mechanic at all. I'll even go so far as to bet that you think that any math-mechanic that uses the word "dice" or "random" (meaning a hit-percentage) must, because it uses these things, remove human skill as the deciding factor... which is totally irrational, and in this particular case, ignorant and wrong.

The "every -direct weapon fired at the same time of the same velocity hitting the exact same point under the reticule" combat mechanic is a problem, because the developers used this mechanic with the TT damage and armor numbers to start, which IS NOT balanced for that much damage to one location - so they doulbed the armor and internal structure numbers, which messed up weapons balance, which lead to rate of fire tweaks, which lead to more tweaks, which lead to more tweaks ... and will continue to do so for as long as they support the game.

IT IS a problem.

NM that it defies the very name of the game and the lore and locks everyone into ONE mechanic (apply as much damage to a single section as quickly as possible without exposing yourself) AND makes the game LESS fun and rewarding than it could be.

Edited by Pht, 14 August 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Foxfire]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 August 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Except once again, based on recent Ask the Devs, they aren't comfortable being able to institute convergence speed and feel it would be a MAJOR undertaking.

We need a way that doesn't require a major undertaking, because these dev's refuse to do major undertakings as I've outlined above.

That is why I am a fan of changing the pin point from a point to a circle that stays the same size projected along the line of aim. torso weapons fire true, armo weapons fire on their respective sides, shoulder weapons fire on the quarters between side and tops, and head weapons fire on the top. It removes the issue of being able to high alpha single point locations at any distance, still maintains a mechanic that skill can compensate for, and removes the backend concerns that PGI has with having to spend the time and money to put an active convergence system in.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

It's funny in the end...all of this comes back to picking the Crysis engine.

If they'd gone the UNREAL route, we'd probably have better game mechanics.

[Dimento Graven]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 August 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

That is a cone of fire. You just added some modifiers to it. And once again the modifiers you suggest sound like the kind of thing the Devs have already indicated they'd have trouble putting into the game.

While I'd PREFER not to go the cone of fire route. If that's what it takes to get rid of instant pinpoint convergence, so be it.

Really? Hadn't thought of CoF in that fashion before since most CoF's always seemed to work 'after the fact', ie: First shot hits, the rest, maybe...

But... You're probably right, this may be a CoF description the more I think about it.

Darn it...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Foxfire, on 14 August 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

That is why I am a fan of changing the pin point from a point to a circle that stays the same size projected along the line of aim. torso weapons fire true, armo weapons fire on their respective sides, shoulder weapons fire on the quarters between side and tops, and head weapons fire on the top. It removes the issue of being able to high alpha single point locations at any distance, still maintains a mechanic that skill can compensate for, and removes the backend concerns that PGI has with having to spend the time and money to put an active convergence system in.

There have been a lot of people recommending similar (albeit more complicated) versions of this. The Devs seem unwilling to budge.

[Donnie Silveray]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 August 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

It's not about "forcing shots to not go where they are meant to go", it's about forcing shots not to all go into once place.

So I guess you feel that adding "Phantom Heat", "Pebbles that Stop Mechs", "Medium Mechs Bigger Than Assaults" and now what sounds like "Phantom Weapon Delay" are all bad things too?

We are trying to get to where simple intuitive fixes are put into this game, understanding convergence isn't hard.

All of the things I listed above are what is hard to understand.

"it's about forcing shots not to all go into once place." sounds more like what I pointed out. If I fire all 4 of my medium lasers on my Atlas I EXPECT them to reasonably hit the same place. If I fire my AC20 on my YLW I EXPECT it to hit its mark. If I fire 3 PPCs from an Awesome, I EXPECT them to hit where I aim it. No excuses, because even the possibility of them 'not hitting the same place' means that there WILL be a chance one of them will outright MISS
What's to say a PERFECTLY ACCURATE shot to the arm of a mech ends up with 2 PPCs missing and 1 hitting because they didn't hit the same point?

The heat scale could have been done better, but it did it's job however odd it does it. Pebbles are a bug that are to be resolved in due time, it's not a legitimate complaint. But yes I do question the scale of Mediums.

I'm all for simple solutions but thus far nobody has been able to answer me this: If I aim true and well, WILL my shots connect where I aim it? If there are more conditions aside from "Mouse over target" then I say "Try again". If I aim true. Perhaps certain torso mounts can't aim that well, or whatever other conditions. But if I aim and everything lines up, all shots must connect in some forms.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 14 August 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[TexAce]

We have this damned ghost heat abortion just because of missing convergence times. People fire alphas because everything goes into one point. If we would have real convergence people woulnd't bother to fire alphas since risk is too high to shoot something that you don't want to shoot or miss completely.
And without people firing alphas this abortion of ghost heatscale would vanish too.

[Helbrecht]

Khobai, on 14 August 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

MWO uses TT armor values, but TT armor values are balanced around not having convergence. Therefore, MWO should either not use TT armor values, or it should not have convergence. Simple logic really.

PGI either needs to remove convergence or use armor values that are balanced with convergence in mind.

no thier actually closer to triple the TT values so thus they already did this.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Dimento Graven, on 14 August 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Really? Hadn't thought of CoF in that fashion before since most CoF's always seemed to work 'after the fact', ie: First shot hits, the rest, maybe...

But... You're probably right, this may be a CoF description the more I think about it.

Darn it...

Don't worry about it being CoF. CoF isn't a bad thing. It works well in a lot of games.

The problem is due to the original Dev blogs and the Founders Program we have HUGE expectations of the Devs and are slowly coming to the realization that the people in charge are inept in certain ways.

They actually did a great job with the hit box and component system. Their art department is outstanding, and generally the maps are good.

The problem is, everything else is a freaking mess.

Static missions.

Static drop points.

Bad movement penalty system.

Convergence is fubar.

The modeling department is full on stupid.

etc. etc.

Donnie Silveray, on 14 August 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

"it's about forcing shots not to all go into once place." sounds more like what I pointed out. If I fire all 4 of my medium lasers on my Atlas I EXPECT them to reasonably hit the same place. If I fire my AC20 on my YLW I EXPECT it to hit its mark. If I fire 3 PPCs from an Awesome, I EXPECT them to hit where I aim it. No excuses, because even the possibility of them 'not hitting the same place' means that there WILL be a chance one of them will outright MISS
What's to say a PERFECTLY ACCURATE shot to the arm of a mech ends up with 2 PPCs missing and 1 hitting because they didn't hit the same point?

The heat scale could have been done better, but it did it's job however odd it does it. Pebbles are a bug that are to be resolved in due time, it's not a legitimate complaint. But yes I do question the scale of Mediums.

I'm all for simple solutions but thus far nobody has been able to answer me this: If I aim true and well, WILL my shots connect where I aim it? If there are more conditions aside from "Mouse over target" then I say "Try again". If I aim true. Perhaps certain torso mounts can't aim that well, or whatever other conditions. But if I aim and everything lines up, all shots must connect in some forms.

So basically you are happy with the game and the instant pinpoint convergence. Good for you. Why didn't you just say that instead of wasting all of our time typing non-sense?

[Foxfire]

Donnie Silveray, on 14 August 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

"it's about forcing shots not to all go into once place." sounds more like what I pointed out. If I fire all 4 of my medium lasers on my Atlas I EXPECT them to reasonably hit the same place. If I fire my AC20 on my YLW I EXPECT it to hit its mark. If I fire 3 PPCs from an Awesome, I EXPECT them to hit where I aim it. No excuses, because even the possibility of them 'not hitting the same place' means that there WILL be a chance one of them will outright MISS
What's to say a PERFECTLY ACCURATE shot to the arm of a mech ends up with 2 PPCs missing and 1 hitting because they didn't hit the same point?

The heat scale could have been done better, but it did it's job however odd it does it. Pebbles are a bug that are to be resolved in due time, it's not a legitimate complaint. But yes I do question the scale of Mediums.

I'm all for simple solutions but thus far nobody has been able to answer me this: If I aim true and well, WILL my shots connect where I aim it? If there are more conditions aside from "Mouse over target" then I say "Try again". If I aim true, I expect truth.

If your aim is true, then you can overcome convergence with aim. If you are doing nothing more than point and click gaming..

See, the fact that all weapons converge on a single point is exactly why you see so many people mounting PPC's and Guasses and the like. There is also nothing simple about he arbitrary heat system that was implemented to fix an issue that shouldn't have existed in the first place, had the devs either put in convergence OR removed pin point accuracy.

It is also directly because of pin point accuracy that an entire class of mechs(mediums) are almost universally a liability on the battlefield.

If you are good at aiming, that wont change with a convergence system.. The level of skill and the ability to distinguish yourself as a pilot, however, increases.

[Pht]

Lykaon, on 14 August 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

This is actually the core issue.

MWo pulled the armor mechanics directly from the table top game but failed to include enough supporting mechanics to prevent exploitation of the armor mechanics.

One big problem is most of the supporting mechanics from table top do not translate to a shooter game.

First - if you're defining "shooter" as a game in which you have DIRECT control over the aim of the weapons with NO "mech (or any other) layer" in the aiming equation ... NO ... an MW video game is NOT a shooter.

"do not translate to a shooter game" - yes, they do, if you're not using the definition of shooter just mentioned.

Instead of just assuming this, I spent the time to see if it's possble, by .. heresy ... actually going into the TT combat mechanic and numbers and format, and seeing if they could work in realtime, without screwing player skill and choices and making for a un-fun game.

They do.

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Random to hit numbers based on fixed variables modifying target numbers.

Random hit locations based on fixed values.

To-hit numbers that simulate the environment and the battlemech's part of the aiming equation; hit-locations based upon the battlemech's ability to aim each individual weapon (confirmed by the makers of the lore).

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Longer refire rates.(Battletech is based upon a 10 second turn that allows each weapon to be fired once in a turn.In MWo we have on an average 2.5X faster refire times)

You don't need to use the 10 second turn time as a recycle rate for the weapons. Heat is the mechanic that DOES touch all weapons - "can I fire this turn, can i actually hit my target this turn" is affected by heat - for all weapons in a mech.

Any weapon firing faster than 10 seconds would run hotter. Slower than 10 = cooler.

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Progressive penalties for higher heat scale values.In MWo we have a heat system that is either fully function or shut down with no in between.

The TT heat system (the advanced up to 50 waste heat scale) would work. 1 SHS dumps 1 heat per ten seconds. 1 DHS dumps 2 heat per ten seconds.

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Turn based movement and shooting phases as well as initiative based order of events also play roles in mitigating damage application effects.

Sometimes the format of a rule doesn't work. However, the math underlying the rule can still be used. Such as the target movement modifiers - they have speed gaps. But all you have to do is plot the numbers on a graph and fill it in.

[Donnie Silveray]

Foxfire, on 14 August 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

If your aim is true, then you can overcome convergence with aim. If you are doing nothing more than point and click gaming..

See, the fact that all weapons converge on a single point is exactly why you see so many people mounting PPC's and Guasses and the like. There is also nothing simple about he arbitrary heat system that was implemented to fix an issue that shouldn't have existed in the first place, had the devs either put in convergence OR removed pin point accuracy.

It is also directly because of pin point accuracy that an entire class of mechs(mediums) are almost universally a liability on the battlefield.

If you are good at aiming, that wont change with a convergence system.. The level of skill and the ability to distinguish yourself as a pilot, however, increases.

The problem I see is that no solution thus far has kept itself 'simple' and 'efficient' and most threaten to screw with the pacing of the game. What I hate more than missing a shot is it missing due to it not being my fault but rather some other inbuilt system or flaw. I don't want to be sitting static, aim, fire, and some shots miss because of some lousy system. Hell even if I DO pack like 6 PPCs if I go through the effort to aim, they must all reasonably hit their target without taking an eternity to do so. This is why I am so dissatisfied with the issue of convergence because thus far I haven't seen a single solution that would reasonably work with the game as it is except for a rare handful.

Again, if you're going to penalize someone for being a good shot, you had better have a good reason to do so.

[Pht]

Dimento Graven, on 14 August 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Aspects to keep in mind when considering the problem:

1. TT is 3rd Person view, so there's no means of adding gunnery skill other than through a small die roll modifier, or to add a lot more funky mechanics that can take a 5 minute per round game and turn it into 25 minutes per round. The mechanic in TT was done for game play expediency and what can be done in a 3rd person only view. Some of this was accommodated by location modifiers depending on what portion of the 'mech you could see, too. After all it wasn't possible to not hit what you couldn't see, ie: legs, when a 'mech was standing behind a Level 1 obstruction.

2. MWO is a first person shooter built on the Crysis2 engine, which was designed from the first person carrying and firing a single weapon at a time perspective.

The conversion to first-person real time battlemech combat simulator doesn't require any pilot gunnery skill rolls or anything that simulates them in the software.

We can do everything with our PC peripherals that the Mech's pilot can do that controls gunnery. Thus the GSR's are and SHOULD be dropped. This is a non-issue.

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This doesn't mean it can't simulate the battlemech's part of the aiming equation.

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5. As mentioned in 4, when it comes to weapon ranges, PGI has actually increased them. Not only that, they compounded this by adding in an "Extended Range" component, giving weapons ridiculous ranges when compared to TT. Given that in TT a single hex was 30 meters, and that LONGEST range you could fire a gauss and actually hit was 22 hexes (30meters times 22 hexes), the LONGEST effective range of a gauss rifle was: 660 meters, regardless of your skill or any modifiers.

6. Lack of a comprehensive Heat Affects table allows repetitive use of Alpha Strike as fast as the weapons can possibly be fired. Something not typically seen in standard TT. In BT, LONG before you risked actual shut down there were other affects that would be activated based on your level of heat adding risks to using alpha strike, ie: It had a balancing factor. MWO, with no heat affects until your heat is beyond 99%, has nothing to balance alpha strike.

Um ... extreme range has been a part of the TT combat system since maxtech (1700). They're also in the new advanced combat rule book too - and extreme range rules in the TT carry their own major downsides. For one, they should also be used with the altered energy weapons damage.

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Yes, on the heat scale stuff.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Donnie Silveray, on 14 August 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

The problem I see is that no solution thus far has kept itself 'simple' and 'efficient' and most threaten to screw with the pacing of the game. What I hate more than missing a shot is it missing due to it not being my fault but rather some other inbuilt system or flaw. I don't want to be sitting static, aim, fire, and some shots miss because of some lousy system. Hell even if I DO pack like 6 PPCs if I go through the effort to aim, they must all reasonably hit their target without taking an eternity to do so. This is why I am so dissatisfied with the issue of convergence because thus far I haven't seen a single solution that would reasonably work with the game as it is except for a rare handful.

Again, if you're going to penalize someone for being a good shot, you had better have a good reason to do so.

You don't see anything we've said as simple and efficient? Then you are either a terrible player or a bad reader.

The easiest solution is just get rid of Alpha's entirely. Simple and efficient.

Every weapon goes exactly where you aim it. You just can't shoot all of them at once.

So lets stop saying that everything is complicated because you don't like it.

The pacing of the game SUCKS for a game about giant 20+ton robots fighting.

It feels like Mike Tyson punching my grandmother in the face.

Every mech crumples almost immediately in 12v12 if you make one small mistake.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 14 August 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[Pht]

Foxfire, on 14 August 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Actually I think the official word from PGI isn't that they 'can't' do it but that they don't want to do it because it would be a major engineering effort on the back end to make a more complex change work.

I really don't think that adding a conditional database that does simple addition and a range choice from 2 to 12 based upon data that's probably 95% already being collected by the game engine would be that complex.

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IMO, however, it would be worth it for them in the long run because having such a system would make the game much easier to balance without going to such arbitrary systems such as the magical heat system that they come up with and would help with the overall longevity of the game by allowing for more variety in gameplay.

Amen.

[Donnie Silveray]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 August 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

The easiest solution is just get rid of Alpha's entirely. Simple and efficient.

So basically you don't want me to press the big button on one of my mechs to fire 4MLs, AC20, LRM20, SRM6 at once? That's kind of silly .

[Foxfire]

Donnie Silveray, on 14 August 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

The problem I see is that no solution thus far has kept itself 'simple' and 'efficient' and most threaten to screw with the pacing of the game. What I hate more than missing a shot is it missing due to it not being my fault but rather some other inbuilt system or flaw. I don't want to be sitting static, aim, fire, and some shots miss because of some lousy system. Hell even if I DO pack like 6 PPCs if I go through the effort to aim, they must all reasonably hit their target without taking an eternity to do so. This is why I am so dissatisfied with the issue of convergence because thus far I haven't seen a single solution that would reasonably work with the game as it is except for a rare handful.

Again, if you're going to penalize someone for being a good shot, you had better have a good reason to do so.

The fallacy of your argument is that you are counting ability to point and click with ability to aim.

If you truly know how to aim the convergence won't matter to you. If all you do is point and click, then the game has eliminated a false measure of 'ability'.

And I count the long term health of the game as a pretty good reason. It will be hard to make medium mechs viable as long as it remains insanely easy to core them with point and click 60+ point damage pin point alphas. It also does little to promote gameplay style outside of sniping, hill humping, and long range engagement. If the current meta continues in this game, it won't last long at all. It is boring and it puts little premium on actual skill.