99 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Dimento Graven, on 15 August 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

You've done a great job describing the advantages of the Jenner as you see it, but I don't see how that makes an ECM capable Jenner 'OP'. It might have a few people switch from Spiders and Ravens, those that can't take advantage of the smaller profiles (or busted hit detection/hit boxes) and need the additional armor the Jenner allows, but currently I feel, having driven Jenners, Ravens, Spiders, Cicadas, and Atlas ECM capable variants that my preference would be to stick with the Raven 3L when it came to driving a light 'mech with ECM.

All I will say is that ECM is icing on this cake. You don't think this cake is real, but it's there and there's good reason for this.

Quote

The profile is sufficiently more difficult to hit that often I'm surviving much longer than most Jenner pilots in my average match and I know that BAP and counter ECM has whittled down, significantly (though admittedly, not completely), the advantage of ECM.

When you are a Raven, you signal to smarter people that you should be legged. People who are smart enough to realize this will leg you and for a Raven... they are far far easier to leg than any other light fielded... even the Commando.

[Matthew Ace]

Sure, give it to the Jenner K.... but make it equippable only in CT. Make the pilot choose between his missile hardpoint and ECM hardpoint.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 15 August 2013 - 08:04 AM.

[Deathlike]

Matthew Ace, on 15 August 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Sure, give it to the Jenner K.... but make it equippable only in CT. Make the pilot choose between his missile hardpoint and ECM hardpoint.

LOL, that's not a loss.

Plus, the ECM hardpoint "rule" that PGI said is that they are very likely to be in a side torso... except that they are all on the LEFT TORSO of every ECM capable mech to date.

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 15 August 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

All I will say is that ECM is icing on this cake. You don't think this cake is real, but it's there and there's good reason for this.

When you are a Raven, you signal to smarter people that you should be legged. People who are smart enough to realize this will leg you and for a Raven... they are far far easier to leg than any other light fielded... even the Commando.

True, the hit boxes of the Raven having setup so that one of the legs to almost always take damage, regardless of the actual body part getting hit, however, when I'm up against Jenners and Ravens, I find that killing the Jenner is easier, ESPECIALLY the jump capable ones, for obvious reasons.

Jenners have a larger profile. It's easier to take out their left/right torsos as they are larger targets. A jumping Jenner almost always has a 'landing pause' where they're a stationary target, figure out where they're going to land, wait, fire, dead, or at the very least, legged Jenner...

At least at this time, I have not been convinced it's a bad idea to revisit the ECM capable Jenner...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 15 August 2013 - 08:10 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

If anything, the Jenner K needs more JJs. It does not, by any means, need ECM.

[Taemien]

Trauglodyte, on 15 August 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

If anything, the Jenner K needs more JJs. It does not, by any means, need ECM.

I could be down with that.

And regards to the 2nd and 3rd pages:

And wtf do Ravens have to do with the price of tea in China? Title said Jenners, not Ravens, not even Ravens and Jenners. Herp derp, the Raven 3L comes stock with an ECM. There, that debate is closed. The two mechs were developed in totally different parts of the Inner Sphere. Take it to another thread.

[Dimento Graven]

Taemien, on 15 August 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

..
And wtf do Ravens have to do with the price of tea in China? Title said Jenners, not Ravens, not even Ravens and Jenners. Herp derp, the Raven 3L comes stock with an ECM. There, that debate is closed. The two mechs were developed in totally different parts of the Inner Sphere. Take it to another thread.

Raven vs. Jenner comparisons help put certain arguments in perspective.

Keep that in mind, and then go re-read those posts, I think you'll see what I mean.

[Taemien]

Dimento Graven, on 15 August 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Raven vs. Jenner comparisons help put certain arguments in perspective.

Keep that in mind, and then go re-read those posts, I think you'll see what I mean.

No I won't go back and reread them. Its pointless. The two mechs are in two different roles.

[Joseph Mallan]

Taemien, on 15 August 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

I could be down with that.

And regards to the 2nd and 3rd pages:

And wtf do Ravens have to do with the price of tea in China? Title said Jenners, not Ravens, not even Ravens and Jenners. Herp derp, the Raven 3L comes stock with an ECM. There, that debate is closed. The two mechs were developed in totally different parts of the Inner Sphere. Take it to another thread.

The Capellan Confederation used the money from Tea sales t fund the Raven Project.
You didn't know that?

[Taemien]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 August 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

The Capellan Confederation used the money from Tea sales t fund the Raven Project.
You didn't know that?

You sombi---....

[BookWyrm]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 August 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

The Capellan Confederation used the money from Tea sales t fund the Raven Project.
You didn't know that?

Which is of course why the St. Ives compact rebelled in 3029; growing tensions resulted in the 'St. Ives tea party'. Tired of taxation without representation used to fund the Raven project they went on to form a new nation with Candace Liao as President. Wait, or am I remembering my history wrong? Darn public schools...

[egreSS]

Asakara, on 14 August 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

I support giving a jenner variant ECM. It is the only light mech chassis which does not have it.

That's because the Jenner makes up for it in every other way by being totally badass.

[Kunae]

egreSS, on 16 August 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

That's because the Jenner makes up for it in every other way by being totally badass.

Again, that's irrelevant. A mech's current strength in the ephemeral meta, should not be taken into consideration for something like this.

[Dimento Graven]

Taemien, on 15 August 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

No I won't go back and reread them. Its pointless. The two mechs are in two different roles.

Ok, 'splain it to me then. What two VASTLY DIFFERENT ROLES are these two 'mechs designed for?

[Taemien]

Dimento Graven, on 16 August 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Ok, 'splain it to me then. What two VASTLY DIFFERENT ROLES are these two 'mechs designed for?

Jenner is a skirmisher. Raven is a scout/support. I shouldn't have to explain that to people, its pretty evident what their roles are. Especially since you're a founder, you should remember how badly people wanted Jenners nerfed in CB because of their damage outputs.

[Dreamslave]

The Jenner is the strongest Light in the game right now. The only thing more durable than it is the Spider, but the Jenner packs a hell of a larger punch than a Spider. So no, ECM should never ever be on a Jenner. Even after (if) they manage to fix hit registration on JJ equipped light mechs.

[Dimento Graven]

Taemien, on 16 August 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Jenner is a skirmisher. Raven is a scout/support. I shouldn't have to explain that to people, its pretty evident what their roles are. Especially since you're a founder, you should remember how badly people wanted Jenners nerfed in CB because of their damage outputs.

It would seem that how they are actually used in MWO differs from your expectations. In game, the Raven skirmishes AS MUCH AS the Jenner.

It seems their in game 'roles' are interchangeable.

As far as being a 'founder' making my opinions and experience the same as yours, no, that's a stupid assumption. I don't remember the issues with the Jenner that you're referring to, but I tend to ignore most qq'ing, so it may or not have happened as you suggest.

Either way, there's still been no "good" reason presented to NOT allow a Jenner variant to carry an ECM. All that's been quoted are either allusions to some vague OP that would spring to life (ignoring that there are two heavier 'mechs capable of equipping it) or references to past ill will towards the Jenner.

In either case there's been no factual, detailed, specific balance breaking cause to NOT allow a Jenner variant to carry ECM.

Dreamslave, on 16 August 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

The Jenner is the strongest Light in the game right now. The only thing more durable than it is the Spider, but the Jenner packs a hell of a larger punch than a Spider. So no, ECM should never ever be on a Jenner. Even after (if) they manage to fix hit registration on JJ equipped light mechs.

Yet a Cicada and Atlas are much more powerful 'mechs and both have variants that carry the ECM.

Your logic is weak.

[Taemien]

There have been good reasons why the Jenner shouldn't have ECM. People like me and others would utterly **** face using it. Right now Jenners are the strongest out of all the lights in the skirmishing role. With ECM they would be effectively the best at everything.

Even the JR7-K would be better than any other light mech. Since you all brought up the Raven, it has 3 energy slots, with only 2 of them in the arm. Limiting its ability to defend itself against a Jenner. The only defense is its ECM. Which will be negated by a Jenner's ECM if its allowed to carry it.

Thats just light mech vs light mech. Now you're giving a potent piece of machinery to the worst nightmare of Heavies and Assaults.

As for your argument as an Atlas and Cicada being powerful mechs, a Jenner is far far more powerful than both those mechs. It performs its role probably the best out any other mech performing their role.

[CancR]

Deathlike, on 14 August 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

ECM has to actually change before I'd even consider the entire notion of adding it to a Jenner...

Yep. It does way to much and has been broken for far to long.

[Dimento Graven]

Taemien, on 16 August 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

There have been good reasons why the Jenner shouldn't have ECM. People like me and others would utterly **** face using it. Right now Jenners are the strongest out of all the lights in the skirmishing role. With ECM they would be effectively the best at everything.

Even the JR7-K would be better than any other light mech. Since you all brought up the Raven, it has 3 energy slots, with only 2 of them in the arm. Limiting its ability to defend itself against a Jenner. The only defense is its ECM. Which will be negated by a Jenner's ECM if its allowed to carry it.

Thats just light mech vs light mech. Now you're giving a potent piece of machinery to the worst nightmare of Heavies and Assaults.

As for your argument as an Atlas and Cicada being powerful mechs, a Jenner is far far more powerful than both those mechs. It performs its role probably the best out any other mech performing their role.

Wow... Just... Wow... I'm flabbergasted that you think this. It's like we're playing two completely different games... First off, in my Raven 3L, I don't even use the three energy slots for damage dealing. I pack 2 ML's and 1 tag, and even since the nerf in streaks STILL take out more Jenners than other 'mech.

When I'm in any of my other 'mechs, none of which have streaks loaded, I kill the big fat Jenners all the time with my ER PPC's, gauss, lasers, SRM's and LRM's, ONLY the LRM's would be affected by ECM, so I don't see the Jenner suddenly becoming the MWO god of all gods with ECM.

Let's review the load outs again, just so maybe we can figure out how they suddenly become invincible death machines laying waste to all 'mechs on the battle field:

JR7-K - 4E, 1M
JR7-F - 6E
JR7-D - 4E, 2M

Nope, ECM doesn't add an AC/20 slot or a gauss cannon, so, again how does it unbalance the lights?

Probably a good half the time I've fought Jenners in my Raven, there's been enough enemy ECM around to counter mine and block my steaks, so when I've fought Jenners in my Raven, it's been through the 2 ML's I maintain on it.

They still die. Those great big side torsos so easy to hit, so easy to bust up an XL, or to work your way to the CT it's not even difficult at the short range you typically have to fight them.

With only energy and a few missile slots, they don't have the armament to get through my armor before I've cored them in one or two PPC/Laser/gauss/AC/SRM alphas that the rest of my 'mechs typically carry. Yeah, if they hang back and wait until I'm significantly damaged, the story MAY change, but then it's not the ECM that's killing me, it's smart piloting.

ECM doesn't boost weapons, it doesn't make 'mechs faster, it doesn't make them untargetable to direct fire weapons, so HOW, EXACTLY HOW, will ECM in a Jenner break game balance?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 16 August 2013 - 06:40 PM.