28 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

It seems to me that one of the least popular mechs in the game, the Trebuchet, is going to be even less popular with the release of the Kintaro.

What can the Trebuchet do better than the Kintaro?

• Rapid SRM boat - Not really, the Kintaro has more missile hardpoints and is a way better SRM boat. With the biggest engine, the Kintaro is even slightly faster.
  
• Rapid LRM boat - Yeah, well, fast LRM boats aren't very useful anyway. Some people thought they would be, but that never happened. Also, the Golden Boy Kintaro can, in theory, fire LRM20+15+15 in a single salvo, so it's as good a LRM boat as any Trebuchet.
  
• Rapid medium laser boat - Yes, the Trebuchet does this better than the Kintaro. But the Quickdraw does this better than either of them, so the point is moot.
  
• Fast PPC poptart - Again yes, but the Quickdraw does this better, although it's rarely very effective anyway.
  
• Jump jets - Yeah, but then again only 2 Trebuchet variants have jump jets. One is the TBT-5J which is a poor man's Quickdraw, and the other is a TBT-7M, with only 3 energy hardpoints and 3 missile hardpoints, one of which is a single tube.

In conclusion... the huge, gangly Trebuchet seems to have become even less useful than before.



Am I wrong?

EDIT: Size comparison

Edited by Alistair Winter, 13 August 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[Typatty]

Yes.

[Ngamok]

It's there if people want a fast striker with jumpjets. And a Medium rather than a Heavy if they ever implement a tonnage thing or private games.

Edited by Ngamok, 13 August 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I have a treb with 2 SRM6's and 4 medium lasers that goes 117kph far faster than the golden boy, i have another with an ERPPC 4 mlas and an SRM6 with 106kph speed and jump jets.

Both are superior to the one kintaro we've seen so far.

[Alistair Winter]

DarkDevilDancer, on 13 August 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I have a treb with 2 SRM6's and 4 medium lasers that goes 117kph far faster than the golden boy, i have another with an ERPPC 4 mlas and an SRM6 with 106kph speed and jump jets.
Both are superior to the one kintaro we've seen so far.

Check http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/, the data is out for other Kintaros.

Your Treb with SRM6 and 4 medium laser actually goes 115.8 with speed tweak, which is slower than a Kintaro with the same weapons. If one was so inclined, one could even go with 4 medium lasers + 3 x SRM4 on the Kintaro. That's what I would do, at least.

Your Treb with ER PPC, 4 Mlas and SRM6 can be recreated with a Quickdraw with only tiny differences in weaponry, approximately same speed (slightly faster), and 402 max armor instead of 338 max armor. I don't know your exact build, but the Quickdraw may also run cooler.

Ngamok, on 13 August 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

It's there if people want a fast striker with jumpjets. And a Medium rather than a Heavy if they ever implement a tonnage thing or private games.

My point is that there already is a fast striker with jumpjets. Like I wrote in the OP, whatever the Treb does better than the Kintaro, the Quickdraw does better than either of them.

And it will be a long time before they implement any kind of tonnage restriction that gives people a reason to choose a medium instead of heavy. It's not something they're working on right now, according to PGI. And they changed their concept for Dropship mode, so that tonnage is no longer relevant.

People may prefer a heavy medium instead of a light heavy mech for personal preferences, or for "private games", but I imagine that is only applicable to a small percentage of the player population. Most people don't have those concerns.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

They're fundamentally different mechs. Considering the Plebuchet is smaller, I would guess it'll still be better than the Kintaro, but that aint saying much.

[Lucian Nostra]

The main difference is that the Treb while large doesn't die the second it starts getting shot as it as decently made hit boxes. The Kintaro used as anything but an LRM hocker or played the most conservative way possible with SRMs is going to die a horrid death.

Even as a LRM boat I'd rather take the Treb because again it has better hit boxes so if something gets in my face I can use my medium lasers without just getting turbo cored and it has JJs

[Alistair Winter]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 13 August 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

They're fundamentally different mechs. Considering the Plebuchet is smaller, I would guess it'll still be better than the Kintaro, but that aint saying much.

Yeah, they're as different as night and... later that night.

An Atlas and a Spider are fundamentally different mechs. The Treb and Kintaro are very similar, with small differences. Only a few people play Trebs at the moment, so it stands to reason that a number of them will switch to the Kintaro.

Lucian Nostra, on 13 August 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

The main difference is that the Treb while large doesn't die the second it starts getting shot as it as decently made hit boxes. The Kintaro used as anything but an LRM hocker or played the most conservative way possible with SRMs is going to die a horrid death.
Even as a LRM boat I'd rather take the Treb because again it has better hit boxes so if something gets in my face I can use my medium lasers without just getting turbo cored and it has JJs

Yeah, that's a fair point. One can hope that they will change the hitboxes as they have done in the past. But seeing how long it's taken them to fix the Awesome, I guess one shouldn't hold one's breath.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Alistair Winter, on 13 August 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Yeah, they're as different as night and... later that night.

An Atlas and a Spider are fundamentally different mechs. The Treb and Kintaro are very similar, with small differences. Only a few people play Trebs at the moment, so it stands to reason that a number of them will switch to the Kintaro.

I'm just not seeing it happen on that grand of a scale. Dat Kintaro CT. The Trebuchet might actually be the more viable of the 2 mechs

[Agent 0 Fortune]

A trebuchet is about half as wide as a Kintaro, giving it a better defensive profile.
But honestly, I rate them both equally bad, but the Kintaro may take the lead by a sliver once drop weights are implemented since it is 5 more tons of worthless.

[Carrioncrows]

Alistair Winter, on 13 August 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Am I wrong?

Few things I contend.

TBT-5J makes one of these most mobile, hardest hitting medium mechs in the game. Hands down better than the Quickdraw.

The TBT arms are excellent at soaking damage and allowing you the ability to not just use it as a shield arm but use both of them as shield arms.

The TBT has much better hitboxes. Though still a bigger CT than a centurion it makes it perfect for an XL, but additionally the side torso's ARE big enough that you can roll the torso to absorb damage on your side torso's.

TBT with 2 LRM15's + Artemis and Quad meds is all you ever need for a missile boat.

I still use my TBT's a lot. The 5J and the 7K

I sold all my QD's for being a steaming pile of rubbish.

As for the KTO's that hitbox automatically takes them out of contention for any sort of competitive environment.

Until the Shadowhawk comes around the TBT is still the premier mobile medium mech and dedicated missile boat until you get to the catapults.

This is what generally always happens in my TBT



I take damage, and LOTS of it.

The TBT is so well balanced it's scary that I can spread damage so well with it and stay alive. I have 320 points of armor on that variant and I would be surprised if I had 30 points of armor left total.

p.s. We won and I survived.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 13 August 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[DerSpecht]

Are you comparing heavies with mediums good sir? AFAIK quickdraw = heavy

[Frisk]

Where does the Quickdraw come into this medium mech comparison again?

[Carrioncrows]

Frisk, on 13 August 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Where does the Quickdraw come into this medium mech comparison again?

It's only 5 tons heavier and has Energy and missile only hard points like the KTO and TBT.

Not out of the realm of consideration.

But it totally is since you pay 1 ton for jumpjets and have the biggest penalty on your engine speed / weight ratio.

[Alistair Winter]

DerSpecht, on 13 August 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Are you comparing heavies with mediums good sir? AFAIK quickdraw = heavy

Frisk, on 13 August 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Where does the Quickdraw come into this medium mech comparison again?

It doesn't really matter if one is a medium and the other is a heavy, because there is not a 1:1 ratio between the number of medium mechs for each team. One team can have 6 lights and 6 mediums, the other team can have 6 heavies and 6 assaults.

It would be an important issue if, as PGI originally intended, there was a dropship mode where each player / lance had x number of mechs with y max tonnage. Or if the matchmaker made sure that both teams had equal tonnage. But that's not the case.

So why only compare medium mechs?

[FupDup]

The Treb's arms can actually soak up fire (and are in fact almost guaranteed to get shot off every match). The Kintaro has no such shields. Also, JJs.

[Urdnot Mau]

I like my AC 20 7K. It's like a cBills YLW Also, the 3C is as fast as a light mech (and CDA), so they have something different. I'll buy 1 KTO and if i think it's unplayable, i'll just never use them again

[One Medic Army]

FupDup, on 13 August 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

The Treb's arms can actually soak up fire (and are in fact almost guaranteed to get shot off every match). The Kintaro has no such shields. Also, JJs.

This would be much better for the Treb, if it weren't for the fact that almost all of it's guns are in the arms.
Also the Kintaro gets more hardpoints.

[General Taskeen]

My TBT-7K is better than that bad hitboxed Kintaro. Pretty hardcore sad.

[WhatTheWho]

Alistair Winter, on 13 August 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

It doesn't really matter if one is a medium and the other is a heavy, because there is not a 1:1 ratio between the number of medium mechs for each team. One team can have 6 lights and 6 mediums, the other team can have 6 heavies and 6 assaults.

So why only compare medium mechs?

So... By your logic, everyone should roll assault mechs, because what's the point of piloting something inferior in comparison?

Stick to your topic title perhaps, and 'maybe' you might have something valid to argue about.

Edited by WhatTheWho, 13 August 2013 - 07:08 PM.