156 replies to this topic

[Rejarial Galatan]

Making stats available to view for everyone is bad, really bad. Why? Elitism. You must have X statistical capability or we do not want you. They may look at a genuine booster whose 'statistical capability' is what they want, on paper, but when they get into the open, they fail like rice paper in a stiff breeze. They then look at a player who has the genuine skill to get the job done, and get it done with world class efficiency, but tends to muck around enjoying the fluff stuff like how the mech sounds when it moves or how the scenery moves, and dont focus hard on numbers. Then say: You suck, get lost. Publicly viewed statistics can make a good game go bad fast. Hell, I catch flack alot for my stats on BF3, especially since I am a SS2 Colonel who doesnt have a 1:1 KDR or better. They see what they want, and dont listen.

[BlindProphet]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 June 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Making stats available to view for everyone is bad, really bad. Why? Elitism. You must have X statistical capability or we do not want you. They may look at a genuine booster whose 'statistical capability' is what they want, on paper, but when they get into the open, they fail like rice paper in a stiff breeze. They then look at a player who has the genuine skill to get the job done, and get it done with world class efficiency, but tends to muck around enjoying the fluff stuff like how the mech sounds when it moves or how the scenery moves, and dont focus hard on numbers. Then say: You suck, get lost. Publicly viewed statistics can make a good game go bad fast. Hell, I catch flack alot for my stats on BF3, especially since I am a SS2 Colonel who doesnt have a 1:1 KDR or better. They see what they want, and dont listen.

You do realize there is going to be elitism regardless right?

You do realize that if they're keeping you from joining them for the sole reason of your stats you're probably better off not playing with them in the first place right?

You do realize that not everyone is a elitist jackass right?

I play WoT for a fairly large clan, that started off really small, and now has 3 full divisions, and have been the targets of an ongoing war of multiple clans ganging up on us for the land we held on the clanwars map. Guess what? Despite being one of the top clans in the game we still value a decent person who fits in far more than we do someone who has great stats but doesn't. We've kicked people with great stats who didn't fit in. Our leader will rake you over the coals in an interview to join the clan over your stats, but guess what? If you fit in you can join, and we have plenty of people willing to help you work on things you're not good at and get better.

A lot of the more respected clans, and larger clans in the game are like that. Some are more selective sure. Prove you're a good player in a competitive environment and are a decent person to get along with and guess what? You'll find a place to belong.

Basically...why on earth are you worried that a bunch of elitist jackasses that you probably wouldn't get along with to begin with due to their natures being completely opposite of yours who only see what they want to see and don't take the time to look any deeper don't want anything to do with you and your bad stats?

[Rejarial Galatan]

Actually, I am not worried over the elitists out there. I just for once in my gaming history, want to see the elitists actually work to be elitists. I know, I know, that so does not make sense. You are right, those who would exclude me on statistics alone are not someone I wish to be around. And yes, I know not everyone is an EJ as you put it, but, I am all to acutely aware of the fact that there is a huge population out there of them, and for once, just ONCE, I want to see them actually work at finding ways to exclude people they find 'less than they are'. Why? Because I am silly I guess. Oh right, its not because I am silly, it is because, I am sick of them, and want to see them wiggle a little for once. Look, I am all for stat tracking for personal use. Where I draw the line is giving these elitists knuckleheads a way to be even more elitist than normal.

[Obadiah333]

Stat tracking will ruin this game with elitists. Don't believe me? Go play WoW - Once Gearcheck came out, it was all downhill from there. Someone (sorry not to quote) stated that jerks will be jerks, stats or no. I agree. However, tracking k/d or w/l ratios and not other vialbe components/aspects of the game will result in people only playing to get good stats. This will not reflect their overall ability to play the game, just how good they are at stealing kill shots and padding stats. Another example - Rift. Once Rift started tracking DPS stats, well, you couldn't get a group if your dps was less than 2,500/sec. Want to raid? Better have x this or you can't go. Want to join a guild..... with those lousy stats/gear, NO WAY.

Translated: You want in our clan with that crappy jenner? NEVER. Your k/d is horrible. You suck! Stats will only encourage and enable the elitist jerks to wrongly categorize people on stats that DO NOT REFLECT their gameplay abilities. Happens in every game that has persistent stats. Ruins every game that has them. Of course, this is only my opinion. Whether you trust in my opinion to be accurate is up to you. My experience in MMO's and FPS games (played most of them, used to compete in mw leagues and ladder matches in fps games) leads me to believe that the casual gamers who want to play this game will eventually leave if the elitist jerks are running the show - and they will be if persistent stats are tracked and made public.

[Mims]

I have to dissagree this time. I do like "MY" stats, maybe you dont like "YOURS". i want everyone to have a profile where i can view there statistics. There is nothing elitist about striving to be your best in game because your skill and effort are reflected; i'm assuming most who are not for "persistant stats" have had bad experiances with elitist jerks, but still. If there are no statistics it will lead to people screwing around not caring about a win or a frag, or a balanced load out or anything. look at it like this... It is a simulation. your respective house or merc unit will keep tabs on you in the field and measure your number of sortes, frags, base captures and things like that. why should that not happen? because you fear how poor your stats will be, and you will be judged? would you not rather be matched up according to skill, and be selected according to mechsize like a certain other game(WOTs'). i would rather have ranked servers and unranked servers than no persistant stats at all.

Edited by Mims, 14 June 2012 - 10:09 PM.

[Teralitha]

Gigadouche, on 12 June 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

No, the argument is I don't want persistant stats. Stat tracking, when I am intending on playing at a competitive level, is fine. When I just want to log in and play some matches after a long day of work I don't want to be tracked because I don't want to play or attempt to play at what is my current competitive level. Maybe you should try reading my original post and the posts of others more thoroughly. Reading comprehension mean anything to you? Effect me if I let them? *** are you on about? When the stats are used purely for competitive selection purposes and that sort of thing... ugh, nvm. I realize I'm getting into these circle arguments of constantly re-iterating my point to pretty much the same people, so.... next Ok well stats like that don't have any weight on what is being discussed at all. We're talking stats with actual weight... accuracy, kdr, etc... sheer "sums" are useless information and don't really say anything except how long you've played the game.

Well zonestats actually had alot more than just killcount...

[Mercurial]

And right around now I realized that I was arguing witih a crazy person that doesn't see how arguing about this while coming across as frothing at the mouth is so far beyond the pale that invoking psychology to prove his point borders on self-parody. You're either trolling or completely insane. I can only vaguely hope that some kind of stat tracking is included--not for my own personal use now, mind you, but in the vague hopes that your bile-spouting hatred for it is so strong that you go anywhere else because... just wow dude.

[Shivus]

Stat tracking is good as long as it's split into individual mechs, not bunched up into overall stats. With the nature of role warfare this game is trying to achieve a good heavy or assault should have a high K:D ratio, while a good light should have a higher targets spotted to battles participated, maybe higher damage and relatively few kills if the player is good at harassment and staying alive. The only stats that should be tracked globally should be wins and battles. Anything else just leads to kill and damage whoring on any mech when scouting, flanking, light harassment, or indirect support is more to the advantage of your team.

[Teralitha]

Harabec Weathers, on 13 June 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

I think stats are perfectly fine. I mean you can simply ignore them, heck maybe include a reset button like Team Fortress 2 so once you've got a handle on the game you can reset and start collecting your "true" stats. I mean, if you actually care about numbers on a screen that much. Personally I want to see them, but I also don't really give a damn about my stats, I'll ruin them anyways when my guild does our first DrunkMechwarriorNight (aka "Get **** drunk, create the most hilariously BAD mech setups we can (AC/2s everywhere!), and go out and be stupid and get blown up") .Its great fun.

My team did something similar for fun a couple times in MW4, we all made ravens with a single laser and all armor stripped and speed jacked to the max and played a city map.

[sakkaku]

There should be recording of stats on a game by game basis.

1. It gives a large amount of historical data. You basically have a backlog of data to test against for say balancing the matchmaker. Find some matches that are clearly dismatched (extremely short, one sided matches) and tweak the algorithm and see how things might have turned out differently.
2. It allows you to track trends. For instance you will see a drifting of the playerbase to certain weapons. If an overpowered cookie cutter build becomes dominant you can see how it effects the overall playerbase.
3. It allows you to figure out if a map is imbalanced. For instance if one side wins an average of 60% of the time something is ****** up with that map.
4. It allows you to help detect cheaters. When a person starts aimbotting their hit% and kill/death tends to jump dramatically. See something fishy and you can go game by game and look for the trend. This has the advantage of not needing a client side scan or spectating when doesn't work well with advanced hacks.
5. Give the community access to the data and they will build interesting tools around it. These sites will give meaning to people who want to compete stat wise while the rest of the playerbase can ignore it.


The data itself isn't scary. It is better to give it to the players/community to develop their own tools.

[Trev Firestorm]

Gigadouche, on 12 June 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

I really started to hate BF3 where all I worried about was keeping up my 4.0 KDR. It pigeonholed me into this one type of playstyle that would allow for that kind of inflated KDR

Well... you could just not care about a useless stat, get on ts/vent/etc. and work with a team regardless what it does to your stats (which while kdr might go down the rest should go up, especially w/l )

The only issue I have with global stat tracking is it took away some of the appeal of servers/communities that traditionally had their own server specific/community stat trackers.

[OnLashoc]

I swear there is a forum post (or so) a day I just look at and chuckle.

You guys crack me up, "I want this, I want that, NO don't do that!" "WAH WAH WAH!!"

Seriously you supposed know it all about what is good and what is bad for the community, you'd figure you guys would group up and go make a game of your own they way you want it or don't want it.

It's not your game, let the Devs make what they feel best.

I for one loved ZoneStats and hope they add it, but I wouldn't be heart broken one way or the other. What would make me vomit is if they actually took one of these threads chock full of demands and declarations seriously.

[Warfeli]

I don't believe they would even consider removing persistent player stats, it is silly and completely counter-productive for this type of game. It just does not make any sense at all. Persistent player stats allow for balancing, match-making, profile progress, role warfare etc. It is even more important since this game will have a 'living universe' kind of implementation that will follow the Battle-tech timeline and implement various canon events which (possibly) include planetary conquest, military conflicts, civil wars, faction dynamics etc.

From another perspective, many players (me included) simply do not want to play with complete newbies or people whom are too far below or above their own skill level. It's not fun getting stomped constantly or consistently stomping others with no challenge. Not including these stats just so you can have a risk-free casual gaming experience is not a valid reason to make the game completely stats-unaware, nothing is stopping you from being a little braver and trying new roles at the expense of your beloved KDR. Not everyone cares about padding their K/D ratios, most of these new games track a lot more than just kills and deaths now anyway. And as for MWO, the developers have already stated that players will be rewarded for playing specific roles and accomplishing specific tasks on their respective teams. It sounds to me like what you described is more of a personal issue as opposed to an issue with stats tracking in and of itself.

It makes a lot more sense for MWO to INCLUDE persistent stats tracking, but also have the option for more 'casual' risk-free games. Stats help me stay away from complete baddies and goofballs as well as overly pedantic psychopaths who freak out over every little thing in a game, i.e. they enable me to find the middle ground of players who want to play well and have fun.

[Melcyna]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 June 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Actually, I am not worried over the elitists out there. I just for once in my gaming history, want to see the elitists actually work to be elitists. I know, I know, that so does not make sense. You are right, those who would exclude me on statistics alone are not someone I wish to be around. And yes, I know not everyone is an EJ as you put it, but, I am all to acutely aware of the fact that there is a huge population out there of them, and for once, just ONCE, I want to see them actually work at finding ways to exclude people they find 'less than they are'. Why? Because I am silly I guess. Oh right, its not because I am silly, it is because, I am sick of them, and want to see them wiggle a little for once. Look, I am all for stat tracking for personal use. Where I draw the line is giving these elitists knuckleheads a way to be even more elitist than normal.

Then you might want to just go off the internet because frankly there's nothing that would satisfy the requirement given the elitists are elitists either way, the question is how you handle them.

Your idea basically is shooting the tools they use, me and others pointed out then that shooting their tools just makes them use another one, then you are just gonna shoot that too till we ALL lose our tools, all because you get incensed by elitists and somehow think that removing a common tool that is used by others as well in even larger portion, not just them will help.

Meanwhile Frostriken is terrified that it turns everyone into elitists...

[cipher]

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 June 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

I want to see them actually work at finding ways to exclude people they find 'less than they are'.
(...)
I am sick of them, and want to see them wiggle a little for once.

do you know how selfish and degrading that sounds? Those statements are pure envy. We do not build communities and promote respect with those sort of sentiments.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Melcyna, on 15 June 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

Then you might want to just go off the internet because frankly there's nothing that would satisfy the requirement given the elitists are elitists either way, the question is how you handle them.

Your idea basically is shooting the tools they use, me and others pointed out then that shooting their tools just makes them use another one, then you are just gonna shoot that too till we ALL lose our tools, all because you get incensed by elitists and somehow think that removing a common tool that is used by others as well in even larger portion, not just them will help.

Meanwhile Frostriken is terrified that it turns everyone into elitists...

i do want the developers to track the stats of each match to keep upgrading the game in positive ways. what i do not want to see is stats being made public for everyone to see. why? because of what things like gearcheck did on World of Warcraft. It reduces play to the point where you are going for stats and stats alone to basically fit some other persons ideal style just so you can actually get into more than just pugs that go no where or have little to no cohesion. Stats being made public can do bad things to games and reduce a formerly lovely community into stat hounding oddballs who want nothing more than to see specific stats.

and to cipher: dont care how it sounds, i speak from personal experience of this sort of thing being done to me specifically out side of games. I am sick of the exclusionary methods elitists use, and wanna see them work for it for once.

[Melcyna]

i don't know how exactly you guys work out your group in WoW...

but let me condense what i can gather from those sentences:

A. there is a parameter called gearcheck
B. they use it to gauge your gear i presume
C. in a game like WoW, i presume your gear makes up a good chunk of what you are, like most MMORPG.

and most importantly these ppl who form these groups you are trying to enter are therefore ELITISTS correct?

and you want to join their group?

...



you know, i think there's a fundamental problem here... so your hope is that these ppl magically turn non elitists without gearcheck and therefore will allow you to join their group...

never mind of course that if these ppl actually bother to ask gearcheck or whatever it is they wanna call it, then they OBVIOUSLY are intending to do something with some sort of minimum capability check in mind, and most likely they intend to do it as EFFICIENTLY as possible (else why check for the participant's stat).

SO, if there was no gearcheck, they'd just use something else in place as a substitute to gauge your rough capability... to which i am guessing you'd then will say we should remove that too?

Let me guess, so they then should conduct an on the spot interview of all the potential candidate to their activity of the day in which they intend to bring a random into and you both will TOTALLY hit it off fine.

Oh good lord in heaven save us all...

Edited by Melcyna, 15 June 2012 - 10:01 PM.