1555 replies to this topic

[Alaskan Nobody]

DisasterMedic, on 29 October 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Saving this for posterity, should everyone ever need to wonder "should I read this guy's posts?"

You mean like all the goons who swore they would leave the game if 3PV was EVER put in the game.... yet are still whining on the forums?
Kettle I may be, but you goons have painted yourselves so far into the black that pot is no longer an appropriate term for you.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Destined, on 29 October 2013 - 03:59 PM, said:

Please stay on topic and stop insulting each other.

As you wish -
I was getting out of line

[Chronojam]

Shar Wolf, on 29 October 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

My bad - when I get a reply I do not always check to see which topic it was in

Nice to see yet another who chooses to mock rather than argue.

Also nice to see that Chrono has not actually countered my argument in any way shape or form.

So now, as you have so kindly reminded me sir Silent (ironic name much?) I am out.

I've been on vacation and may have lost track of what you were talking about. I'm not sure what your argument is, or whether or not I'm supposed to be countering it.

We seem to be in agreement about headshots. We seem to agree that legging is an interesting mechanic, although I would find it more appealing in the interest of gameplay to have a mech with one crippled leg have the old penalty and a mech with both legs crippled face a harsher penalty. A crippled mech would be more vulnerable to skilled headshots, as it turns out.

I think that Ghost Heat was absolute rubbish and caused more problems than it solved, and the problems it solved were lesser issues when compared with more pressing balance problems. I seem to remember you disagreed.

My stance was that nerfing AC\2 chainfire, interfering with LRMs, nerfing SRM2 alpha-strikes, etc. was not worth it to simply limit massed PPC fire from a single chassis. Reducing the popularity of massed PPCs could have been put in place by increasing the 90m "dead zone," increasing overall mech health to reduce the advantages of long range weapons, increasing PPC heat directly, etc.

Jumpsniping or flat-footed 2PPC1Gauss were not impacted at all by ghost heat, while common medium mech builds and builds that were good counters to 2PPC1Gauss and the long-range high-alpha metagame were -- which only made 2PPC1Gauss more powerful comparatively. This was done not just the expense of the balance issues created by ghost heat, but also the development time and testing that would have been better off used for community warfare or mech-perks or pilot-perks.

Edited by Chronojam, 29 October 2013 - 04:40 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Chronojam, on 29 October 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

...............

All you really need to know anymore is that while me and you agree on a lot of general ideas - talking about the specifics is only going to start another war, and whilst war is what the game is about - the forums are not the place for the kind of war me and you are going to have - which is why all I see when you post or respond is:

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Chronojam. View it anyway?

[Nekki Basara]

Cimarb, on 29 October 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I'm sure you realize, but he was making a reference that alpha strikes are the "standard" now so much that they named the book after it.

That actually did not occur to me. The book just came out and we were demoing it at Gaelcon just yesterday so I assumed it was a good-faith question what with Chronojam and I talking TT regularly in our jabber channel.

[Cimarb]

Shar Wolf, on 29 October 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

All you really need to know anymore is that while me and you agree on a lot of general ideas - talking about the specifics is only going to start another war, and whilst war is what the game is about - the forums are not the place for the kind of war me and you are going to have - which is why all I see when you post or respond is:

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Chronojam. View it anyway?

I like arguing with Chromyjam and his hoodlums as much as anyone, but you are shooting yourself in the foot with all the complaining about their complaining. We don't care who you ignore - but if you ignore them, actually IGNORE THEM!

[Cimarb]

Chronojam, on 29 October 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

I've been on vacation and may have lost track of what you were talking about. I'm not sure what your argument is, or whether or not I'm supposed to be countering it.

We seem to be in agreement about headshots. We seem to agree that legging is an interesting mechanic, although I would find it more appealing in the interest of gameplay to have a mech with one crippled leg have the old penalty and a mech with both legs crippled face a harsher penalty. A crippled mech would be more vulnerable to skilled headshots, as it turns out.

I think that Ghost Heat was absolute rubbish and caused more problems than it solved, and the problems it solved were lesser issues when compared with more pressing balance problems. I seem to remember you disagreed.

My stance was that nerfing AC\2 chainfire, interfering with LRMs, nerfing SRM2 alpha-strikes, etc. was not worth it to simply limit massed PPC fire from a single chassis. Reducing the popularity of massed PPCs could have been put in place by increasing the 90m "dead zone," increasing overall mech health to reduce the advantages of long range weapons, increasing PPC heat directly, etc.

Jumpsniping or flat-footed 2PPC1Gauss were not impacted at all by ghost heat, while common medium mech builds and builds that were good counters to 2PPC1Gauss and the long-range high-alpha metagame were -- which only made 2PPC1Gauss more powerful comparatively. This was done not just the expense of the balance issues created by ghost heat, but also the development time and testing that would have been better off used for community warfare or mech-perks or pilot-perks.

We actually agree on these items (and I think that's it). Ghost heat was a bad solution to a bad system and legging shouldn't kill (directly)

[Chronojam]

Cimarb, on 29 October 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

We actually agree on these items (and I think that's it). Ghost heat was a bad solution to a bad system and legging shouldn't kill (directly)

I don't want to tempt fate but I think PGI would be hard-pressed to come up with a new idea more damaging to the spirit of the game, the new player experience, and overall balancing than Ghost Heat.

Any other disagreements we have are meaningless by comparison; for example, I think the way the ~loyalty rewards~ were handled for Phoenix was total ********* and you probably think it was fine but that's mostly PR nonsense whereas Ghost Heat actively harmed the game.

[Cimarb]

Chronojam, on 29 October 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

I don't want to tempt fate but I think PGI would be hard-pressed to come up with a new idea more damaging to the spirit of the game, the new player experience, and overall balancing than Ghost Heat.

Any other disagreements we have are meaningless by comparison; for example, I think the way the ~loyalty rewards~ were handled for Phoenix was total ********* and you probably think it was fine but that's mostly PR nonsense whereas Ghost Heat actively harmed the game.

Lol, I don't think it is that bad. My issue is not even with ghost heat, because I don't think I play (or played) anything that was actually affected by it, but with the fact that it didn't fix the heat issue. I loved my Heavy Metal with 2 ERPPC and Gauss because it was very effective with how I played - even before everyone else started running around with it - but ghost heat didn't touch it. The heat change to ERPPC and Gauss "delay", though? That totally ruined the build for me, because it desynced the group and made it run extremely hot. THAT is how the heat system should be adjusted, not adding some ridiculous arbitrary system like ghost heat. In fact, every time I get on this subject, it reminds me of Monty Python: "Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!" Fix the system or use existing rules to adjust it, don't make something else up to use as a bandaid.

TL;DR ghost heat isn't the issue - the heat system itself is the issue.

[Vaderman]

Chronojam, on 29 October 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

I don't want to tempt fate but I think PGI would be hard-pressed to come up with a new idea more damaging to the spirit of the game, the new player experience, and overall balancing than Ghost Heat.

Any other disagreements we have are meaningless by comparison; for example, I think the way the ~loyalty rewards~ were handled for Phoenix was total ********* and you probably think it was fine but that's mostly PR nonsense whereas Ghost Heat actively harmed the game.

Now PGI have done a number of things we can all agree have caused problems, ghost heat isn't one of them.

Ghost heat came about as a direct attempt to stop PLAYERS who were using cheese mechanics to exploit the spirit of the game and the overall new player experience..

I'll say it again. PGI did this as a direct result of player actions.

Ghost heat I can deal with, being shot at by 6 people on the enemy team each with 6 ppc's I can't.

Ghost heat broke cheese builds, but has not affected balanced builds with the possible exception of a few mechs with canon medium laser builds. That's an easy fix however.

Don't worry tho cheesemeisters, the cheese continues. Last night I saw a Stalker with no armor and 95 LRM tubes. Rejoice in your attempts to find another loophole.

Edited by Vaderman, 30 October 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[The Boneshaman]

one solution to some cheese builds (but not all) weapons need X hard points before they could use such a weapon. Like MW4 you need 3 energy hard points in a LT before you could install a PPC/ERPPC 4 ballistic hard points before you could use a AC20 i think 4 missle hard poins for LRM20 and 3 for SRM6. this could solve some problems but could make a few more like a 8 ML K2 it would kill the splatupult with 6 SRM6 and AC40 jaggers/catapults. but they would need to redo all ard points on most all mechs. it could kill builds that make some mechs worth a damn. not saying this is a fix or something. people may not want a MW4 repeat of a hard point system.

this may not be the place for this cuz i think people have gotten way off topic and this one should be locked

Edited by The Boneshaman, 30 October 2013 - 08:45 AM.

[Vaderman]

The Boneshaman, on 30 October 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

one solution to some cheese builds (but not all) weapons need X hard points before they could use such a weapon. Like MW4 you need 3 energy hard points in a LT before you could install a PPC/ERPPC 4 ballistic hard points before you could use a AC20 i think 4 missle hard poins for LRM20 and 3 for SRM6. this could solve some problems but could make a few more like a 8 ML K2 it would kill the splatupult with 6 SRM6 and AC40 jaggers/catapults. but they would need to redo all ard points on most all mechs. it could kill builds that make some mechs worth a damn. not saying this is a fix or something. people may not want a MW4 repeat of a hard point system.

this may not be the place for this cuz i think people have gotten way off topic and this one should be locked

I agree it may not be the best solution, but something did have to be done, and pretty fast.

The blame for what was done rests completely on the shoulders of the people exploiting the game mechanics, and they're now forced to deal with the reality that they're not really that good at the game.

So let them continue to rattle their sabres, it's much better than the alternative of dealing with cheese.

[Chronojam]

Cimarb, on 30 October 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

Lol, I don't think it is that bad. My issue is not even with ghost heat, because I don't think I play (or played) anything that was actually affected by it, but with the fact that it didn't fix the heat issue. I loved my Heavy Metal with 2 ERPPC and Gauss because it was very effective with how I played - even before everyone else started running around with it - but ghost heat didn't touch it. The heat change to ERPPC and Gauss "delay", though? That totally ruined the build for me, because it desynced the group and made it run extremely hot. THAT is how the heat system should be adjusted, not adding some ridiculous arbitrary system like ghost heat. In fact, every time I get on this subject, it reminds me of Monty Python: "Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!" Fix the system or use existing rules to adjust it, don't make something else up to use as a bandaid.

TL;DR ghost heat isn't the issue - the heat system itself is the issue.

Correct. One of the pitfalls of ghost heat, after all, is that it makes it easy for PGI to effectively hang a Mission Accomplished banner over the issue. In lieu of making single heatsinks versus double heatsinks some meaningful, strategic decision or even discussing heat capacity adjustment or being a bit more cavalier about individual weapon tweaks, ghost heat is just a mess that discourages making other changes. It is indeed a sad bandaid.

Wasn't it Ekman on Twitter who, when questioned about ghost heat's failure, responded that "Hey you haven't seen any 6PPC Stalkers anymore, have you?" Mission accomplished buddy, but at a steep cost to gameplay and new players.

[Chronojam]

Vaderman, on 30 October 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Now PGI have done a number of things we can all agree have caused problems, ghost heat isn't one of them.

Ghost heat came about as a direct attempt to stop PLAYERS who were using cheese mechanics to exploit the spirit of the game and the overall new player experience..

I'll say it again. PGI did this as a direct result of player actions.

Ghost heat I can deal with, being shot at by 6 people on the enemy team each with 6 ppc's I can't.

Ghost heat broke cheese builds, but has not affected balanced builds with the possible exception of a few mechs with canon medium laser builds. That's an easy fix however.

Don't worry tho cheesemeisters, the cheese continues. Last night I saw a Stalker with no armor and 95 LRM tubes. Rejoice in your attempts to find another loophole.

You sound like a bad player because a Stalker fitting 95 LRM tubes is going to be hurting for heat dissipation, speed, ammunition, will have very little health and its legs/arms will likely snap off at a glance, plus it won't be able to torso twist. A Stalker with 6PPCs was never a serious build, either. It, too, makes a lot of sacrifices. Both are easy prey for a Blackjack or a Jenner, and both are incredibly ineffective at short range.

2PPC1Gauss, on the other hand, is an effective build that works on a lot of mechs and was untouched by ghost heat.

It's dumb as hell to call a 95 LRM Stalker a "loophole" when it was clearly supported by the mech-building and chassis-variant rules, while having a pile of downsides to drive. How about, I dunno, ECM?

Vaderman, on 30 October 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

I agree it may not be the best solution, but something did have to be done, and pretty fast.

2PPC1Gauss had been effective for what, seven months before Ghost Heat didn't fix it? I see no reason to expect fast action to thwart a gimmick 6PPC Stalker while real teams were tearing you apart with jump-sniping Cataphracts.

[Heffay]

Chronojam, on 30 October 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

2PPC1Gauss had been effective for what, seven months before Ghost Heat didn't fix it? I see no reason to expect fast action to thwart a gimmick 6PPC Stalker while real teams were tearing you apart with jump-sniping Cataphracts.

Ghost heat isn't designed to fix everything. The PPC heat changes made that build less effective though, as did the gauss firing mechanism change. There are additional changes they can make to balance it even more if needed, but just because ghost heat doesn't deal with every scenario doesn't mean it didn't fix some of them (i.e. 4+ PPC Stalker-3F).

Edited by Heffay, 30 October 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Chronojam]

Heffay, on 30 October 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Ghost heat isn't designed to fix everything. The PPC heat changes made that build less effective though, as did the gauss firing mechanism change. There are additional changes they can make to balance it even more if needed, but just because ghost heat doesn't deal with every scenario doesn't mean it didn't fix some of them (i.e. 4+ PPC Stalker-3F).

Ghost heat broke more than it "fixed" and changes to the PPC alone would have solved the deadly 4/5/6PPC Stalker that no competitive team was using. Instead we get repercussions that kill brawling even worse while leaving 2PPC1Gauss unaffected. You are lying to yourself if you think ghost heat was a net benefit. Removing 6PPC Stalkers was not worth destroying SRM builds, introducing weird numbers games for LRM fits, taxing shorter-ranged laser weaponry, and doing bizarre things to AC\2.

[Texas Merc]

Heffay, on 30 October 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Ghost heat isn't wasn't designed to fix everything anything.

FTFY

[Heffay]

Chronojam, on 30 October 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Ghost heat broke more than it "fixed" and changes to the PPC alone would have solved the deadly 4/5/6PPC Stalker that no competitive team was using. Instead we get repercussions that kill brawling even worse while leaving 2PPC1Gauss unaffected. You are lying to yourself if you think ghost heat was a net benefit. Removing 6PPC Stalkers was not worth destroying SRM builds, introducing weird numbers games for LRM fits, taxing shorter-ranged laser weaponry, and doing bizarre things to AC\2.

Again, just because ghost heat doesn't deal with 2ppc/1 gauss doesn't mean it didn't solve a lot of other problems.

It did solve a lot of problems with boating. Just because it didn't solve everything, create CW and cure your acne all in one fell swoop doesn't mean it wasn't beneficial for the game. Cherry-picking an issue that ghost heat wasn't meant to solve doesn't mean ghost heat didn't solve some issues.

There may have been other ways to solve issues (I like having small and large hardpoints personally for each weapon type), but I'm sure you would have complained about something there as well. Complaining just for the sake of complaining.

Edited by Heffay, 30 October 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[Roadbeer]

And any of this has to do with Project Phoenix how?

You Forumites are so damn cute.

[Vaderman]

Roadbeer, on 30 October 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

And any of this has to do with Project Phoenix how?

You Forumites are so damn cute.

The forum police are even cuter.

Ok, an example. Ghost heat affects Phoenix mechs too.

Chronojam, on 30 October 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

Ghost heat broke more than it "fixed" and changes to the PPC alone would have solved the deadly 4/5/6PPC Stalker that no competitive team was using. Instead we get repercussions that kill brawling even worse while leaving 2PPC1Gauss unaffected. You are lying to yourself if you think ghost heat was a net benefit. Removing 6PPC Stalkers was not worth destroying SRM builds, introducing weird numbers games for LRM fits, taxing shorter-ranged laser weaponry, and doing bizarre things to AC\2.

No, what it fixed was game breaking alpha strikes on builds that used min/maxing to break the spirit of the game like you mentioned.

My idea of a brawl is using fire and maneuver, terrain, and other real world examples to take down another mech, i.e skill.

Some peoples idea of a brawl is to get in your face and take you down in one alpha strike. That's not a brawl, thats boring and cheesy.

My example of the Stalker was simply to point out that people are out there still trying to go against the spirit of the game by ATTEMPTING to exploit it. I didn't say it was successful, but it was an obvious attempt on that pilots part to one shot other mechs.