1555 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Nekki Basara, on 22 October 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

They're theoretically all connected directly to the power plant, because that's what's actually generating the heat via increased fusion to generate the necessary power for actually "doing stuff". That's why the cockpit gets hot when you fire guns in the arms. All you really need is a long conducive chain and it'll work, but if the radiator fins are damaged at the point at which they leave the thermodynamic system then you'll ****** up the dissipation. This is further backed up by hand-held weapons pods requiring the heat sinks to be built in, and not being able to run off chassis sinks.

Don't forget about all the energy losses that take place during all the transfers between cables and conduits. Every time you send energy through a junction, you lose some of it as heat... also, I bet these Mechs aren't plumbed through-and-through with superconducting wires, so there's the loss due to thermal resistance that takes place along the straights, too.

People also mistakenly assume that Flamers should cool your Mech, but in [fictional] actuality, they pump plasma out of the nice shielded core and through conduits that leak heat into the unshielded innards of your Mech. The act of pumping plasma from a shielded region through an unshielded region will cause your Chassis to absorb that heat and, thus, get hotter and have to dump that heat out through the heatsinks.

[Nekki Basara]

I dunno man, at the listed exchange rate of 1CB = 5 USD they can afford to make superconducting structure for mechs. They'd want to at those prices.

[Rift Hawk]

Chronojam, on 22 October 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

That's about it. Ghost heat hurt brawling, and hurt the weapons that could reliably fire back at jittery jumpsnipers.

It also screwed the brawling builds that relied on massed lasers (four large pulse was already stupidly hot) or SRMs, and even hurt LRM boats that were honestly in a pretty good place. It also made the twin AC/20 build unsustainable.

Oh and it made any more than one AC\2 generate heat for no good reason.

Apparently the dual AC/20 build isn't worthless because half the Jagers and K2s I see are still using it.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Imperial X, on 23 October 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Apparently the dual AC/20 build isn't worthless because half the Jagers and K2s I see are still using it.

Put them on chainfire, or set each to a different weapon-group, and 20 damage every 2 seconds can be devastating.

Yes it isn't 40 damage alpha, but alpha in a jager is generally a less effective than sustained IMO - they're to broad for the torso-twisting and all that the alpha builds rely more on.

Only thing Ghost Heat hurt is the "Alpha one Weapon-Group" crowd, which is precisely what it was supposed to do.
Shocking isn't it.

[Cimarb]

Chronojam, on 22 October 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

It doesn't seem to make any sense because it doesn't make any sense.

It also doesn't make sense that all of these values -- the penalties, the thresholds -- change between versions without any way to find out. It also doesn't make sense because the people making the matches/weapons directly disagree with each other when asked about this odd behavior.

It also doesn't make sense because it makes balancing harder. It did not curb the 2PPC1Gauss it was ostensibly created to stop, and appears to be one more concept that's hard for players to understand and most damningly it's been hard for the developers to understand and explain. You can't use a tool you don't understand.

The one subject I agree with Timejelly about. Ghost heat was a mediocre bandaid to a very poor system that didnt solve the worst builds it was meant for and broke many of the stock builds from canon - for example, the six ML Battlemasters. A bandaid wasn't needed - a tourniquet was. Chop the current heat system off at the elbow and lets get it fixed! 30 heat cap w/ sinks directly improving dissipation (only) like they are supposed to.

Anyways, back to the original subject so I can stop agreeing with Cronymarmalade... The more I play the PP mechs, the more I like them. As I mentioned earlier, the default builds, especially for the TBolt and BMaster, are horrible. As I get them upgraded and find a good build for them, I am really starting to find their groove. The Locust(P) is the best version, as you can build it out the same as a Spider (4MG + laser). I love the high mount for the ballistics on the SHD, though I miss them being arm-mounted for vertical shots. The TBolt makes a really good brawler with a standard engine, LBX, SSRMs and MLs. The BMaster is decent with the same build as the TBolt, but I just don't seem to have any luck with it, as it seems to core way easier.

[Heffay]

Cimarb, on 23 October 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

and broke many of the stock builds from canon - for example, the six ML Battlemasters.

6 MLs don't incur ghost heat.

[Texas Merc]

Heffay, on 23 October 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

6 MLs don't incur ghost heat.

The AWS-8Q?

[WarHippy]

DirePhoenix, on 22 October 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

If battlemechs were objects that existed IRL, and heat sinks mounted in the legs were supposed to cool off a weapon in the arm, they would have to be connected somehow from the legs to the arms in order to transfer heat from one location to the other. Tubes, pipes or hoses, filled with gas or liquid would have to carry the heat to the 'sinks' in the legs. Those tubes, pipes or hoses would very likely get ruptured, if not by combat, then by the 'mech's own movement. When they rupture, the gas or liquid filling those pipes, tubes, or hoses would leak out, and cease removing heat from anything they were connected to. And that's not even considering the leakage that may occur between joints (between the connections between lengths of tubes, pipes, or hoses) or through the pumping equipment used to push all that coolant media through your system. (hope you guys with liquid PC cooling systems have some natural circulation built in because if those pumps go, your system is useless) Of course, there's also the point that if a 'heat sink' is connected all the way from a left foot to a right hand, then the 'heat sink' is actually not in the left foot, even though that's where the heat is shunted out of the 'mech... it's all over the mech, which means any damage anywhere could damage that heat sink.

Well the way I always looked at it is the entire mech itself is a giant heat sink for the weapons and engine. All the smaller heat sinks we add to the mech are to cool the mech/engine not the individual weapons.

[Bilbo]

Texas Merc, on 23 October 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

The AWS-8Q?

The 8Q couldn't reliably cool a 3 PPC alpha before the mechanic was introduced. It might have made it worse, but it certainly didn't break it.

[Cimarb]

Heffay, on 23 October 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

6 MLs don't incur ghost heat.

My bad, I guess I need to spend another weekend trying to decipher that explanation of ghost heat again. I realize it isn't that "hard" to understand, but it is way more complicated than is needed, especially to us idiots that just want to shoot something...

That being said, the fact that ghost heat isn't even in the picture goes to show how horrible the heat system is to begin with. This is a stock loadout for the mech - if you have to stagger fire them to where the first laser(s) are already off cooldown before you fire the last in order to avoid overheating, the build/system is broke.

[Cimarb]

Heffay, on 23 October 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

6 MLs don't incur ghost heat.

Oh, and way to re-derail my attempt to get the thread back on subject, Mr. Heffay... I even fell for it by responding...

[Nekki Basara]

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Put them on chainfire, or set each to a different weapon-group, and 20 damage every 2 seconds can be devastating.

Yes it isn't 40 damage alpha, but alpha in a jager is generally a less effective than sustained IMO - they're to broad for the torso-twisting and all that the alpha builds rely more on.

Only thing Ghost Heat hurt is the "Alpha one Weapon-Group" crowd, which is precisely what it was supposed to do.
Shocking isn't it.

Have you not seen the dual AC-20 + Meds to taste Jaegers? BOOM to dent and then use the lasers to try finish drilling through once the damage is on the paperdoll. TBH the AC-20 builds weren't a problem anyway, when I saw them in my Stalker I knew they had sacrificed either armour or speed to get those in there and I could out-damage them anyway while rolling the torso.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Nekki Basara, on 23 October 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

...........
when I saw them in my Stalker
.................
I could out-damage them anyway while rolling the torso.

And there is part of why I have little respect for you.

Of course the ac40 jagers are not that big a threat: to an assault mech.
Try facing one when you don't outweigh it by 20+ tons.

That is like comparing the Locust to the Cicada: both speed oriented Scouts by design.
Or a Dragon to a Victor: both highly mobile for their weight.
Jager to a Stalker: both designed to bring large amounts of firepower for their weight.
Amazing which one is likely to win in a one on one duel isn't it?

You missed my point though - why do people seem to always miss the main point of what I try to say?

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Only thing Ghost Heat hurt is the "Alpha one Weapon-Group" crowd, which is precisely what it was supposed to do.
Shocking isn't it.

Edit: Typo meant Speed not peed

Edited by Shar Wolf, 23 October 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[3Xtr3m3]

I got your point on Ghost heat,
but I have to admit, the only reason I am posting here is your comment on "peed oriented scouts" .
I would ask you to elaborate, but I am afraid you would do just that.

[Felicitatem Parco]

3Xtr3m3, on 23 October 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

I got your point on Ghost heat,
but I have to admit, the only reason I am posting here is your comment on "peed oriented scouts" .
I would ask you to elaborate, but I am afraid you would do just that.

It's about dropping weight and reducing the internal volume/bulk around the pelvic joints to move faster; like why pigeons poop right as they fly away when you scare them.

[Heffay]

Nekki Basara, on 23 October 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Have you not seen the dual AC-20 + Meds to taste Jaegers? BOOM to dent and then use the lasers to try finish drilling through once the damage is on the paperdoll. TBH the AC-20 builds weren't a problem anyway, when I saw them in my Stalker I knew they had sacrificed either armour or speed to get those in there and I could out-damage them anyway while rolling the torso.

Hehe, now we know the real reason he hates ghost heat.. it nerfed his favorite build!

[Alaskan Nobody]

3Xtr3m3, on 23 October 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

I got your point on Ghost heat,
but I have to admit, the only reason I am posting here is your comment on "peed oriented scouts" .
I would ask you to elaborate, but I am afraid you would do just that.

Prosperity Park, on 23 October 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

It's about dropping weight and reducing the internal volume/bulk around the pelvic joints to move faster; like why pigeons poop right as they fly away when you scare them.

Meant Speed not peed not sure how I typod that though, I distinctly remember checking that for the S

[Heffay]

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Meant Speed not peed not sure how I typod that though, I distinctly remember checking that for the S

It's better that way. You should stick with peed.

[Nekki Basara]

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

And there is part of why I have little respect for you.

Of course the ac40 jagers are not that big a threat: to an assault mech.
Try facing one when you don't outweigh it by 20+ tons.

That is like comparing the Locust to the Cicada: both peed oriented Scouts by design.
Or a Dragon to a Victor: both highly mobile for their weight.
Jager to a Stalker: both designed to bring large amounts of firepower for their weight.
Amazing which one is likely to win in a one on one duel isn't it?

You missed my point though - why do people seem to always miss the main point of what I try to say?

People miss your point because you are terrible at making it or it's a stupid point. If the boomjager was a problem then it would be punching above it's weight, which it wasn't. It clearly was not broken and didn't need fixing. My Jenner also didn't worry about them, for entirely different reasons and that was at a 35 ton disadvantage.

Also, guess what? There are no duels in this game.

Heffay, on 23 October 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Hehe, now we know the real reason he hates ghost heat.. it nerfed his favorite build!

ETA: ZING! I'd post a screenshot of my mechbay but that'd require patching and you'd accuse me of fitting a pair of AC20 on my Centurion via goonhax or some similar terrible publord logic.

Edited by Nekki Basara, 23 October 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[Heffay]

Nekki Basara, on 23 October 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Also, guess what? There are no duels in this game yet.

Fixed it for you. I think they said it was a very high priority right after UI 2.0.