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Project Phoenix Loyalty Update!


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#1501 Vaderman

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 08:15 AM

View PostNekki Basara, on 25 October 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I'm not going to quote you point by point because you posted a lot and made a few assumptions, so I'll just condense a bit:

You seem to like piloting mediums or at least be aware that they are suffering in the high-alpha metagame. The current situation they occupy is a bad one, since the mech scaling makes them a proportionally easier target than they should be, as easy to hit as heavies without any of the durability. The solution to this would be to increase durability across the board, so the first mistake stops being lethal for them, as has been suggested elsewhere a number of times. The game I want is the one where my mech clomps around taking sustained fire for minutes before falling over, not the current step out of cover and get cored meta that exists now and which Ghost Heat did very little to address.

Now, the other tweaks to weapon fire have worked far better to at least inconvenience the previously dominant meta by requiring better timing and skill, but we are still left with nonsensical crippling of canon builds functioning as newbie traps and the oddness of chain-firing AC2s shutting you down faster than doing the same with ERPPCs.



This is exactly what the heat changes addressed. Were you playing the game when you could step out in a HEAVY or ASSAULT and get 6 PPC'd and insta-gibbed? Are you playing the game now where that doesn't happen anymore?

I have never seen people running more balanced builds than at this point in the game right now, so in that sense I would call their changes successful. A bit weird yes, but effective in preventing those ridiculous alpha strikes.

Canon builds? Let's talk about that for a second. What canon builds ran 6 PPC's or AC2's? During the LRM raining from the sky cheese builds what mechs in canon ran 80 LRM's? The heaviest missle platforms were vehicles, and maybe the Longbow. ALSO, for those canon builds that ran heavy amounts of heat producing weaponry you basically had a choice: overheat or don't fire all your weapons. The game right now doesn't include all of the risks you experienced in TT either, so that's also worth pointing out: ammo explosions, reduced movement, and targeting penalties. The only effect you get in this game is you go straight to shutdown.

The game has never been in a better state of preventing exactly what you complained about above, and that is survivability.

People that rely on heavy alpha strikes are the worst kind of player, the ones who can't stand losing and will do everything in their power to circumvent the spirit of the game in order to convince themselves they're much better players than they really are.

Cheating and using cheese mechanics is just a way of admitting to yourself that you suck, and can't compete on a level playing field.

#1502 Rift Hawk

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 08:29 AM

View PostNekki Basara, on 25 October 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I'm not going to quote you point by point because you posted a lot and made a few assumptions, so I'll just condense a bit:

You seem to like piloting mediums or at least be aware that they are suffering in the high-alpha metagame. The current situation they occupy is a bad one, since the mech scaling makes them a proportionally easier target than they should be, as easy to hit as heavies without any of the durability. The solution to this would be to increase durability across the board, so the first mistake stops being lethal for them, as has been suggested elsewhere a number of times. The game I want is the one where my mech clomps around taking sustained fire for minutes before falling over, not the current step out of cover and get cored meta that exists now and which Ghost Heat did very little to address.

Now, the other tweaks to weapon fire have worked far better to at least inconvenience the previously dominant meta by requiring better timing and skill, but we are still left with nonsensical crippling of canon builds functioning as newbie traps and the oddness of chain-firing AC2s shutting you down faster than doing the same with ERPPCs.


I'm stunned to say that I can agree with some of this post.

I don't think that durability needs to be increased however. At least not across the board. Thats been the problem from the start. Lights and Mediums are way too tough and Assaults are not tough enough. Increasing the Armor of Assaults by say 15% and decreasing Mediums and lights by 15% and 20% respectively would solve the problem. Taking into account the devs actually resizing the mechs to a more realistic size. Mediums and lights need to be quite a bit smaller than they currently are and assaults need to be a bit bigger. It would require adjusting the hit boxes for those mechs so it would take a alot of work. Which is why I don't think I'll see it happen. Didn't stop me from posting the question in Ask the Devs #50 though.

#1503 Apnu

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 09:29 AM

View PostImperial X, on 25 October 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Lights and Mediums are way too tough and Assaults are not tough enough. Increasing the Armor of Assaults by say 15% and decreasing Mediums and lights by 15% and 20% respectively would solve the problem.


What?! Assaults need a armor buff and lights and mediums need a armor nerf? I'm an average pilot and when piloting a medium mech trying to tear down an atlas or stalker, of equal pilot skill takes FOREVER. Even a noob in a stock Atlas lasts a really long time against my AC20 packing medium.

The Armor is fine. Its a scale and hitbox issue.

#1504 Rift Hawk

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostApnu, on 25 October 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:


What?! Assaults need a armor buff and lights and mediums need a armor nerf? I'm an average pilot and when piloting a medium mech trying to tear down an atlas or stalker, of equal pilot skill takes FOREVER. Even a noob in a stock Atlas lasts a really long time against my AC20 packing medium.

The Armor is fine. Its a scale and hitbox issue.


Its both. Armor is fine now because the scale is wrong. Making a light smaller means smaller hit boxes. Which means its harder to hit. Which in turn means it needs an armor reduction. Same with the Assaults. The bigger you are the easier it is to hit. Bigger hitboxes would require more armor. Don't just quote two sentences out of an entire post and ignore the rest. If you had read the whole thing, I clearly stated it would depend on resizing the mechs. Which any one who gave it any thought would realize that to resize the mechs you have to resize the hit boxes.

The fact that your using an example of trying to kill an Atlas or Stalker in a medium is a **** poor point. Attempting to kill an assault 1 on 1 with a medium in any other game besides this one would equal your death very quickly. Its an assault mech and the fact that you think it shouldnt be so hard to kill is laughable. Its supposed to be hard to kill. Thats why an Atlas is 100 tons and is SUPPOSED to be huge and have more armor than a light mech weights.

#1505 Vaderman

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:02 AM

Personally I don't see an issue either way with regards to scale or armor levels.

I don't care how tall you are, if I can get a target lock on you I can hit you (and I'm not talking about LRM's/streaks). Aiming at the center of a red square is not affected by how tall you are.

The issue with lights, and to some degree mediums, is simply that most people can't hit them at all. "Slashing" laser attacks are what most people connect with, and that does very little damage. I can assure you that taking a heavy projectile hit can and will put you down in a light. Most simply can't make that projectile connect tho.

Most heavies and assaults go down due to either poor piloting skill (most noobs I see are in an atlas), very slow speed without a movement plan, wandering off alone, or just overconfidence in their ability to push in alone against a line of opponents.

As far as height you see people comparing the SHawk to a 'phract. Well, for one height and weight aren't a direct correlation and the hawk is on stilt legs and the phract is on sideways "V" legs. The phract's torso and arms are also extremely heavy compared to the hawks.

The balance of armor ratios if I remember correctly is a direct translation from TT, they just doubled the standard amount to account for this being a fast paced FPS game.

#1506 Chronojam

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:25 PM

View PostAzargo, on 25 October 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

At mere 450m effective, LLs had the range to counter the poptarts? Hurt it so your lights could finish it, while enemy lights were sleeping on the couch? I'm sorry, I have to disagree. I didn't see any poptarts run away from 6LL Stalkers, nor people taking 6LL Stalkers to counter poptarts. What I've seen though was poptarts and 6LL/4-6PPC Stalkers eliminate all mediums and heavies, and then proceed to bludgeon each other in a game of whack-a-mole with bazookas.

ER Large Lasers, which are grouped with Large Pulse Lasers for the purposes of Ghost Heat, have an effective range of 675 meters and easily cause hurt out much farther than that. They were quite good at putting hurt on poptarts while compensating for the awful hit detection due to beam duration on an otherwise-hitscan weapon.


View PostShar Wolf, on 24 October 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:


It IS dumb I will grant you that - but it DOES do what it was supposed to: nerf alpha striking.

It may not do it as well as other methods might have, but it does it, no?


Good thing you can't chainfire the AC\2 anymore, and the most popular alpha-strike (2PPC1Gauss) was completely unaffected by it. Unrelated, can anybody tell me the name of that new Battletech tabletop release, can somebody remind me?

#1507 CeeKay Boques

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:50 AM

View PostVaderman, on 25 October 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:


I'm assuming you mean in the mechlab? They are already listed in the unlocked paint's, at least in my game.

Or are you saying unlocked for people who didn't purchase a Phoenix package?


I only see them in their own folder... I think.... I'll have to triple check tonight.

#1508 Cimarb

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:36 AM

View PostTechnoviking, on 29 October 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:


I only see them in their own folder... I think.... I'll have to triple check tonight.

Scroll down to the very bottom of the paint folder list and you should see "unlocked"

#1509 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 08:53 AM

View PostChronojam, on 28 October 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:




Sorry Chrono, but after your ******** 'lets remove legging AND headshots, and mock all counter arguments' I put you on my ignore list as well, so I am not even gonna bother to read what you posted.

#1510 Nekki Basara

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:26 AM

View PostChronojam, on 28 October 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Unrelated, can anybody tell me the name of that new Battletech tabletop release, can somebody remind me?
Alpha Strike. Nice book, but I haven't had much time to look through it yet.

#1511 Cimarb

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:46 PM

View PostNekki Basara, on 29 October 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Alpha Strike. Nice book, but I haven't had much time to look through it yet.

I'm sure you realize, but he was making a reference that alpha strikes are the "standard" now so much that they named the book after it.

#1512 Chronojam

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:52 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 29 October 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:


Sorry Chrono, but after your ******** 'lets remove legging AND headshots, and mock all counter arguments' I put you on my ignore list as well, so I am not even gonna bother to read what you posted.


What's this guy talking about? Headshots are a pretty good mechanic and I even like TACs in turn-based tabletop. I'm fully in support of legging mechs and in fact would like to see a legged mech have an increased chance of falling, because I also support tackling. "Death from above" attacks against a mech's head and upper surfaces would also be welcome.

#1513 merz

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:20 PM

ah, remember the d

View PostChronojam, on 29 October 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

in fact would like to see a legged mech have an increased chance of falling, because I also support tackling.


ah, distinctly i remember those halcyon days of yesteryear, when goons came at you in-game instead of in gusts of frothy forum-spittle. getting nostalgic here, even if what they came at you with were bowling trollmandos, once the dragons were no longer a viable option. aah - and i see the hard work at garnering popular support is finally paying off, comrade chronojam!

never stop posting.

Edited by merz, 29 October 2013 - 02:23 PM.


#1514 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:43 PM

View PostChronojam, on 29 October 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:


What's this guy talking about?


Since I fully expected a response to my previous (and admittedly very nasty) post:
Ah I see you have modified your original post for your ATD suggestion - I had asked repeatedly in the OT about head shots and the only response I got from you at the time was:

Quote

The only way to kill a mech should be by killing it's engine


Nice to see you have developed SOME brain.
I will state my opinion on your suggestion one last time since my other posts appear to have been deleted and/or moderated.

1) Removing legging removes any real reason to shoot at the legs for any reason
Yes, you can slow them down - or you can spend those shots KILLING them.
But, but, but, ammo explosions! See single hitbox issue below.

2) No need to shoot at the legs (or as before you edited it - the head) means that there is no reason to put much armor there and/or have the hitboxes in the first place

3) That puts us nearer and nearer the logic that - we only need one hitbox per mech

4) Which brings us to a Mechassault style game - and I rather doubt we want that - if you do then I feel far more and more justified in putting you on my ignore list.

#1515 Chronojam

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 03:01 PM

If the pilot dies, ejects, disconnects, or the vehicle is forced into a state of permanent overheat, runs away out of the map boundaries, etc. the mech is "mission-killed." Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

#1516 Cimarb

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 03:16 PM

I am 100% for head shots - there is NOTHING more satisfying than getting a headshot kill, especially at range, lol.

That being said, I don't think taking out both legs should be a kill. It should just immobilize the mech from the waist down - torso twist and arm movement, but no leg turning or forward/back movement.

I also think there should be a self-destruct and an engine destruction should have a chance of fusion explosion that does damage like an artillery strike (or five). I don't think a self-destruct should be penalized unless it is a team kill - then just handle like any team kill(s). Overheating drastically could even cause an overload that has the same effect.

It wouldn't be hard to implement any of these, and I think it would be much more fun if they were included.

Then eject could be a small visual very similar to how 3PV is handled - it is just permanent (for the match).

#1517 Silent

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 03:26 PM

Has Shar Wolf left the topic yet he's been saying he's going to leave for like the last 20 pages now

Edited by Silent, 29 October 2013 - 03:27 PM.


#1518 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostSilent, on 29 October 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Has Shar Wolf left the topic yet he's been saying he's going to leave for like the last 20 pages now


My bad - when I get a reply I do not always check to see which topic it was in :)

Nice to see yet another who chooses to mock rather than argue.

Also nice to see that Chrono has not actually countered my argument in any way shape or form. :D

So now, as you have so kindly reminded me sir Silent (ironic name much?) I am out. :ph34r:

#1519 Silent

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 03:33 PM

See you in another page or two

#1520 DisasterMedic

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 03:50 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 24 October 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

I shall now leave this topic


Saving this for posterity, should everyone ever need to wonder "should I read this guy's posts?"





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