171 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

p4g3m4s7r, on 19 August 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

The M113 is the only aluminum armored APC currently in service, and it's been in the process of being phased out for a long time. It still generally has better protection than it's steel skinned predecessor.

Also, does the GAU-8 not count as a machine gun? Because it was designed with the intent of destroying tanks. Even if it's a technically a Gatling cannon, a machine-gun variant of it would still be more than able to pierce the hull of most heavily armored tanks.

Also, the M230 on the Apache is approximately a machine gun (it's technically an autocannon) and it can pierce a substantial amount of armor (not tanks, though).

Even then, none of the above really matters, because they might as well remove the machine gun from the game if they're going to make it the worst weapon in the game on purpose. There's really no reason to make a weapon useless. You simply reduce mech and variant diversity. The only reason anyone could want to do this is if they're just ashamed of being beaten by variants they think are bad.

They work great. Just NOT as a primary weapon. (Though a Piranha with 12 would actually hurt stuff). But for .5 a ton, what they do to insides is just not nice. It's like Mech Ebola. And en masse, they can and are dangerous. I have ate through armor with just my MGs alone.

Use them. They are not TT true, but I actually kinda like em the way they are now.

Airu, on 19 August 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Mgs are too good right now in some builds *cough* spider *cough*
Something needs to be done to stop this, its actually worse than raven 3L in its streak prime...

yeah. easy. Don't ignore them and let them eventually strip your armor with their ONE real gun. The MGs only brutalize your insides. I have lost to a MG spider maybe TWICE in the last 100 matches.

[Airu]

I agree that if you know what you are dealing with, you will not let that spider strip you before making swiss cheese out of your engine, but in a brawl just running like a lunatic (most spider pilots) and spraying everything with bullets results in amazing results sometimes

Edited by Airu, 19 August 2013 - 10:20 PM.

[Lord de Seis]

Lord Ikka, on 17 August 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

You know, if it was a real-world discussion, you would be right. Machine guns should not be able to damage 100-ton walking tanks. However, it is a fictional universe, and even in the first book of the Gray Death Legion trilogy you will see Grayson take out an enemy Mech by blasting its cockpit with MG fire. Leave real-world out of it.

MGs are not OP in this game. They are specifically designed to destroy internal components after other weapons have stripped armor. Even with their updated damage MGs do crap damage to a component with armor, but they are deadly when armor is gone. Having 20mm armor-piercing bullets bouncing around in your components would suck, so it makes sense.

Edit: MG mm changed per Strum Wealth's info. Thanks!

I agree with what your saying but if I am taken to internals and have a MG spider near me I can't even get a shot off before I lose all components in said area, I think that is a bit over the top. I like the concept of MG's having a function but I think the criticals are happening a bit to quickly.

Edited by Lord de Seis, 19 August 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[Koniving]

I found some fluff... but the supposed shots, damage, etc... is rather inconsistent so I don't know if any of this could be credible despite its supposed source.
http://www.sarna.net...349/an/0/page/9

One of the MGs is listed from this guy's source as a 5.56mm weapon. Others are listed as 12.7mm and 20mm. Note that a 50 caliber round is 12.7mm.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord de Seis, on 19 August 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

I agree with what your saying but if I am taken to internals and have a MG spider near me I can't even get a shot off before I lose all components in said area, I think that is a bit over the top. I like the concept of MG's having a function but I think the criticals are happening a bit to quickly.

but by the same token, if you have armor, then you sit, laugh and pop the Spider in the face. Seems like a fair trade-off. If you are wounded and bleeding (and danger close), then they are dangerous. If not, they are laughable.

[stjobe]

Koniving, on 19 August 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

I found some fluff... but the supposed shots, damage, etc... is rather inconsistent so I don't know if any of this could be credible despite its supposed source.
http://www.sarna.net...349/an/0/page/9

One of the MGs is listed from this guy's source as a 5.56mm weapon. Others are listed as 12.7mm and 20mm. Note that a 50 caliber round is 12.7mm.

As far as I can tell, that's someone's house rules.

Notice that all the light machine guns have 1 BT damage, whether they're listed as 5.56, 12.7, or 20mm, and the same for regular MGs (2 BT damage) and heavy MGs (3 BT damage).

Think of the aneurysm the ".50 cals can't hurt tanks!" crowd would have if someone were to claim 'mech MGs were 5.56 (that's .22 cal for you Americans)

[Lord de Seis]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 August 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

but by the same token, if you have armor, then you sit, laugh and pop the Spider in the face. Seems like a fair trade-off. If you are wounded and bleeding (and danger close), then they are dangerous. If not, they are laughable.

The MG's damage can still add up very quickly on your armor, I think the issue with the Spider is more about it's hitbox and the difficulty in actually doing damage to them. Where this could be a big problem is if they code in actuator damage, I like what they can do don't get me wrong i just think it happens much to quickly. If someone only had 1 or 2 of them it wouldn't be that bad but you see mechs carrying as many of them as they possibly can.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord de Seis, on 20 August 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

The MG's damage can still add up very quickly on your armor, I think the issue with the Spider is more about it's hitbox and the difficulty in actually doing damage to them. Where this could be a big problem is if they code in actuator damage, I like what they can do don't get me wrong i just think it happens much to quickly. If someone only had 1 or 2 of them it wouldn't be that bad but you see mechs carrying as many of them as they possibly can.

I think you hint at the real problem: How hard they are to kill due to the current hit registration issues. Take that away, and it becomes a non -issue, IMO.

[TexAce]

Airu, on 19 August 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Mgs are too good right now in some builds *cough* spider *cough*
Something needs to be done to stop this, its actually worse than raven 3L in its streak prime, it takes no skill to do the following (easy mode engaged):

You do realize that if spiders weren't so borked right now with the hit detection, the lag and their hitboxes you would have been dead after 5 seconds into fight?
Yesterday I saw a spider tank (yes tank) multiple alphas by 3 heavies, 1 medium and 2 assaults while killing 3 mechs. He didn't even use his JJs just walked (not full speed) around and shot the open armor-less parts of the enemy.

It's not the MGs, its the damn spider. I have one too and I see this effect every day. I die 5 times faster in my 6MG Jäger than in my Spider 5K

Edited by TexAss, 20 August 2013 - 12:58 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Something people forget is that functionally you could have a 155mm cannon fire just like a machine gun with the same rates of fire if you had a roboust enough firing mechanism.

For example, the US 5in (127mm) cannon mounted on many of our naval ships can fire 20 rounds in one minute. Now I know is is more in line with MWO ACs at about 1 round every 3 seconds but my point is that you can fire very big rounds, very quickly with even current technology. Therefore why is it hard to believe that a standard mech grade Machine Gun can't fire 30mm rounds at 300-600 rpm.

[Kilbourne Jorgensson]

Xanquil, on 17 August 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Having seen a T80 destroyed by a m19 fully automatic grenade launcher, and having holes punched into my APC by less than a .50cal, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong. And a .50cal can indeed damage an Abrams it just takes it just takes a lot of amo or a lucky hit to take one out with one.

Sure you're going to be able to do that before they get you? You might get lucky on the track but you are not going to be able to kill the crew. I've seen an original Abrams sans the uranium armor look like a porcupine from the number of sabot rounds sticking out from the armor. Not one penetration.

[Rippthrough]

1. A round doesn't need to penetrate to cause damage.
2. Battlemech armour is a few millimeters thick, not 10-20 inches like a modern battle tank, and it is ABLATIVE in nature.

That means you could damage it with a bow and arrow if you could fire it hard enough to trigger the reaction.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

I think you hint at the real problem: How hard they are to kill due to the current hit registration issues. Take that away, and it becomes a non -issue, IMO.

Actually I find MGs to not be affected by hit registration.

Try this. Ignore the particle trail. There is no leading. You do not lead your bullets for any reason what so ever.

Remember the MG got HSR based on energy weapons i.e. lasers?

Treat it like a laser. Keep it as close to on target as possible; if you lead only a tiny bit as necessary for lasers.

When MGs were 0.4 damage I got scores like this, because I backed them up with flamers (no reason not to be on target 100% of the time). Granted this was the only time I got a score like that back then and it's because both of the morons I was fighting (a Dragon and an Atlas DDC) had (the Atlas) PPCs and Gauss Rifles (both) and no skill with them plus no HSR plus their ping.

From Kon's profile feed.

Quote

Koniving

Saddest score ever achieved http://assets-cloud....nal/1687764.jpg What makes it sad? Best of my team with 4 MGs, 4 flamers. Nothing else.
May 01 2013 07:01 PM · Delete · Lock

When MGs got buffed to 0.8, I ditched the flamers from all my troll builds in favor of PPCs (no reason to stay on target, always have to lead). They were awful. They didn't do anything. My accuracy for MGs went from over 90% to less than 30%. Just... Awful!

So I complained. Later when MGs got buffed again I went back to flamers and was doing good. And... it's like why did they suck when they were buffed the first time? Then Prosperity Park told me. Ignore the particle effect. They're lasers, don't lead them.

I've been doing incredible with them again ever since, even without the flamers.

Edit addition:
I use small lasers, small pulse, and MGs as anti-light weapons. Even when I don't have the lasers I find that the MGs are absolutely devastating against the ever "invincible" Spider. Sometimes to the point that they call b.s. and swear I must be cheating.

Edited by Koniving, 20 August 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Koniving]

Unrelated: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2669682 New game mode idea. I can see problems with it if the Ambassador is a player, and some pains if the Ambassador is an NPC. But I think it'd be fun.

[Airu]

TexAss, on 20 August 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

You do realize that if spiders weren't so borked right now with the hit detection, the lag and their hitboxes you would have been dead after 5 seconds into fight?
Yesterday I saw a spider tank (yes tank) multiple alphas by 3 heavies, 1 medium and 2 assaults while killing 3 mechs. He didn't even use his JJs just walked (not full speed) around and shot the open armor-less parts of the enemy.

It's not the MGs, its the damn spider. I have one too and I see this effect every day. I die 5 times faster in my 6MG Jäger than in my Spider 5K

I killed 1 light and 5 assaults and only light was actually trying to shoot me, the rest I opened rear armor with my ERLL and then killed them, most of them were busy shooting assaults on my team, and some had already armor stripped off, it took me no more than 10 seconds to kill each one of them.
Even if hit detection was not broken, I am pretty sure, I could survive for 10 seconds against an assault unless he gets a lucky ac20 shot

[stjobe]

Airu, on 20 August 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

I killed 1 light and 5 assaults and only light was actually trying to shoot me, the rest I opened rear armor with my ERLL and then killed them, most of them were busy shooting assaults on my team, and some had already armor stripped off, it took me no more than 10 seconds to kill each one of them.

Killing oblivious Assaults is easy no matter what you're packing.

It's killing the non-oblivious ones that sometimes gets tricky.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 20 August 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Actually I find MGs to not be affected by hit registration.

Try this. Ignore the particle trail. There is no leading. You do not lead your bullets for any reason what so ever.

Remember the MG got HSR based on energy weapons i.e. lasers?

Treat it like a laser. Keep it as close to on target as possible; if you lead only a tiny bit as necessary for lasers.

When MGs were 0.4 damage I got scores like this, because I backed them up with flamers (no reason not to be on target 100% of the time). Granted this was the only time I got a score like that back then and it's because both of the morons I was fighting (a Dragon and an Atlas DDC) had (the Atlas) PPCs and Gauss Rifles (both) and no skill with them plus no HSR plus their ping.

From Kon's profile feed.


When MGs got buffed to 0.8, I ditched the flamers from all my troll builds in favor of PPCs (no reason to stay on target, always have to lead). They were awful. They didn't do anything. My accuracy for MGs went from over 90% to less than 30%. Just... Awful!

So I complained. Later when MGs got buffed again I went back to flamers and was doing good. And... it's like why did they suck when they were buffed the first time? Then Prosperity Park told me. Ignore the particle effect. They're lasers, don't lead them.

I've been doing incredible with them again ever since, even without the flamers.

Edit addition:
I use small lasers, small pulse, and MGs as anti-light weapons. Even when I don't have the lasers I find that the MGs are absolutely devastating against the ever "invincible" Spider. Sometimes to the point that they call b.s. and swear I must be cheating.

missed the point entirely bro.

It's NOT, I repeat, NOT the MGs that are the issue.

It's the Spiders themselves, carrying the MG, which are near impossible to hit due to hit boxes and poor hit registration, are able to basically stroll around picking peoples open areas apart with MG BECAUSE they can't be hit, that are the issue. Hence, it gives the illusion that MG are some wonder weapon, when in fact they are good for one thing only still, it's just the Spider is able to exploit that one thing due to being broken. And of course, as is the norm, people want to exploit that.

Airu, on 20 August 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

I killed 1 light and 5 assaults and only light was actually trying to shoot me, the rest I opened rear armor with my ERLL and then killed them, most of them were busy shooting assaults on my team, and some had already armor stripped off, it took me no more than 10 seconds to kill each one of them.
Even if hit detection was not broken, I am pretty sure, I could survive for 10 seconds against an assault unless he gets a lucky ac20 shot

Possibly. Assault pilots are notorious thick after all. A good heavy or medium pilot though doesn't think his armor make shim immortal, and actually pays attention. Against THEM, you would be lucky to last 5 seconds.

[Airu]

Oh I can bombared you with screens of my spider ownage, but it still wouldn't prove that spider K is easy mode against anyone right now.
I mastered my jenner back when every light was a raven 3L or com 2d leading their victory Streaks and I know how to survive for more than 5 seconds against an assault that can kill half my team.
Though, I admit that a good shot pilot can nail a spider with an alpha/ac20 and 1 hit send it to spectators, happend to me many times (since my ping is always around 60 - not much lag)

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 August 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

It's NOT, I repeat, NOT the MGs that are the issue.

It's the Spiders themselves, carrying the MG, which are near impossible to hit due to hit boxes and poor hit registration, are able to basically stroll around picking peoples open areas apart with MG BECAUSE they can't be hit, that are the issue.

I know the spiders are an issue -- for everyone else. They are an issue for any weapon with bullet travel time and regular lasers. My Atlas RS actually carries 2 SPLs and 1 MG specifically for them, while I use PPCs and twin LRM 10s on everything else. The tears are glorious.

[MaxStr]

Quote

• Reducing the crit probability of Machine Guns. (0.11, 0.06, 0.02 > 0.06, 0.03, 0.01)
  
• Crit damage multiplier on Machine Guns reduced from 12.5 to 9.0

About time MGs got nerfed, I was sick of seeing all those OP 6xMG Jagermechs mowing everything down.