42 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ok I am prepared to get shouted down on this but it still needs to be said.

Prior to the patch, I ran about a 30/70 mix of PPC/LL on my mechs. 30% of my mechs used 1-2 PPCs or ER PPCs and 70% would use a LL instead.

Now with the changes, I have removed PPCs from all but one of my mechs due to heat issues.

To put it bluntly, between the lighter weight and less heat a LL offers, I can't justify a weapon that causes shutdowns after 3 shots and/or significant pauses in my DPS while I wait for weapons to cool enough to resume fire, not when I can mount a LL and not have to deal with either of these issues.

Basicaly the increase in heat has reduced me to the closed beta builds I was forced to run. It definately does not offer any diversity in builds.

Now I realize this is largely subjective especially since each person is going to have a different tollerance for heat build up on the mechs he runs but I feel the game definately went backward with the increase in heat on the PPC and ER PPC.

Additionally the heat increase didn't fix the problem which is snipers builds that fire very sporadically and thus aren't as effected by heat as someone who uses a mixed build for mixed roles. Basically the heat nerf just punishes those players who use PPCs as part of mixed build, i.e. people who use 1-2 PPC/ER PPCs supported by MLs or SRMs for mixed long and short range fighting.

Therefore I think we should revert back to the previous values on PPCs and reevaluate what is actually the problem then come up with an alternative solution that actually works without breaking something that wasn't an issue in the first place.

[YueFei]

The game punishes players trying to do DPS in general. High heat cap, but slow dissipation rate. =/

Koniving has a good idea how to fix the heat scale, just hard limit the heat cap at 30, done, end of story. No piloting efficiencies to increase the heat cap. Heat sinks do not raise the cap. Then make DHS true double heat sinks.

[Rugarou]

PPC/ERPPC are fine where they are heat wise. Though for the benifts it has, ERPPC could stand to have 0.5-1.0 more heat added to it imo.

Learn to manage heat spikes better and when to fire/not fire a high heat weapon during an intense fight.

[ICEFANG13]

I'm not a "EVERYTHING must be TT or else" guy, but I've always wondered why a weapon that has unlimited ammo and huge range, and lower weight and slots, and no real 90m drawback (seriously, its like when you're humping something it does less damage, but still does damage) even had its heat lowered. I think PPCs should have 10 heat and ERPPCs should have 15, like in TT. 12v12 has made PPCs even better in comparison to A/Cs and missiles, there is a reason they generate so much heat.

Probably don't need the ghost heat thing anymore, but I think a better solution could have been produced anyway.

OP honestly, if you have such a problem with PPCs being too poor right now, without the multiplier (then they are very hot), then you just don't really know what the game is like. PPCs are the best weapons handsdown. If you were to ask, "If you could only use one weapon in the entire game, only one for all of your mechs forever more, which one?" PPC would easily take the cake. I run Jenners, and I would still probably choose PPC, Medium Lasers would probably be pretty high up there too for lighter mech pilots.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 18 August 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[FupDup]

If you're trying to maintain constant fire with PPCs--or anything except for AC/2 and UAC/5--then you're doing it wrong. Very wrong.

There is simply no way to put it politely. You just plain don't know how to utilize the weapon's strengths and minimize its weaknesses. The point of the weapon (and almost every other weapon in the entire game) is to take a quick snap-shot at the enemy's vital parts and then twist your torso to protect your own vital areas while you cool down and reload your weapons; and you should really have cover nearby to absorb enemy fire instead of standing out in the open. Maintaining DPS over time is severely overrated and it's not like our current high capacity and slow dissipation make DPS worthwhile anyways (blame Paul for that one).

ICEFANG13, on 18 August 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

OP honestly, if you have such a problem with PPCs being too poor right now, without the multiplier (then they are very hot), then you just don't really know what the game is like.

The funny thing is, the OP once made a thread about how the 4 PPC Stalker was supposedly less effective than a LL Stalker (Ice, I think you even replied to that thread?). It's all in his playstyle. For instance, I believe that he said he used chain fire "50% of the time" with the 4 PPC Stalker in his tests, which in and of itself says everything that needs to be said here.

Edited by FupDup, 18 August 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[Blackadder]

PPC's never needed a heat increase, what they needed was reduction in projectile speeds for PPC, and minor reduction for ERPPC. Increase recharge time by .50-.75 so they are slower firing and ideal for 300-700 meter range combat. Fix the PPC doing damage under 90 meters or extend the minimum range on it, so that the diminishing returns kick in sooner, and boost its maximum range by the same number. SO ppc would be 140-600 as an example.

This would make the PPC a true sniper weapon, that has a weakness as the range decreases, or if faster mechs can get inside its engagement range, and still allow it to be used as long range firepower for those players who want to combine it in a more balanced loadout.

Edited by Blackadder, 18 August 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

FupDup, on 18 August 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

If you're trying to maintain constant fire with PPCs--or anything except for AC/2 and UAC/5--then you're doing it wrong. Very wrong.

There is simply no way to put it politely. You just plain don't know how to utilize the weapon's strengths and minimize its weaknesses. The point of the weapon (and almost every other weapon in the entire game) is to take a quick snap-shot at the enemy's vital parts and then twist your torso to protect your own vital areas while you cool down and reload your weapons; and you should really have cover nearby to absorb enemy fire instead of standing out in the open. Maintaining DPS over time is severely overrated and it's not like our current high capacity and slow dissipation make DPS worthwhile anyways (blame Paul for that one).



The funny thing is, the OP once made a thread about how the 4 PPC Stalker was supposedly less effective than a LL Stalker (Ice, I think you even replied to that thread?). It's all in his playstyle. For instance, I believe that he said he used chain fire "90% of the time" with the 4 PPC Stalker in his tests, which in and of itself says everything that needs to be said here.

Karr and Villz now of DV8 (used to run with Dire Wolves with me) used to wreck with it, I'm not quite sure with version of LLs it was though. Now the Gauss PPC is the most common, although as a self respecting light mech awesomesauce I don't use them, I'm a SRM-8 Jenner-D through it all.

I don't remember that thread, maybe I did, however...

Ideally, a LL mech (we'll say a Stalker, just cause) would be a PPC mech in a straight up fight. 3LL/2LPL have more DPS than 2PPC (similar weight), and less HPS, but because lasers have to focus that damage, while PPC mechs can spread it all over, the PPC will win very easily usually, not even looking how the PPC mech can also shoot the LL mech while getting into range.

I mean its just clear which weapons are best. High damage in relation to low DPS, instant damage and weapons that are not too ammo reliant, like PPCs. Its really run hot or die, you don't need a cool mech, the best pilots can maintain at 99% heat and not go over unless they have to. With laughable heat, pathetic heat penalties, and a humorously large heat pool (30+heatsinks, just nuts!), PPCs are the best weapons in the game for sure.

Its funny, as a good light mech pilot, I can beat these mechs in correct engagements (1v1, no way will I win in a 2+v1, can't dodge every shot), I even out DPS them

4 SPL+2SRM4(+super accuracy)=9.22 (HPS 5.08)
2 PPC+Gauss=8.75 (HPS 4.75)

Even I have to maximize the time to dodge and decrease the time to fire. Even that .25 seconds is too long to just stare at someone. Its also pretty funny that I am hotter than they are, but with less instant heat its much easier to maintain that DPS rather than jump from 80->100%

Blackadder, on 18 August 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

PPC's never needed a heat increase, what they needed was reduction in projectile speeds for PPC, and minor reduction for ERPPC. Increase recharge time by .50-.75 so they are slower firing and ideal for 300-700 meter range combat. Fix the PPC doing damage under 90 meters or extend the minimum range on it, so that the diminishing returns kick in sooner, and boost its maximum range by the same number. SO ppc would be 140-600 as an example.

This would make the PPC a true sniper weapon, that has a weakness as the range decreases, or if faster mechs can get inside its engagement range, and still allow it to be used as long range firepower for those players who want to combine it in a more balanced loadout.

You know that increasing heat also makes PPCs into sniping weapons far more than anything else ever could? Making them less effective at close range far more than increasing cooldown or minimum range.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 18 August 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

ICEFANG13, on 18 August 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I'm not a "EVERYTHING must be TT or else" guy, but I've always wondered why a weapon that has unlimited ammo and huge range, and lower weight and slots, and no real 90m drawback (seriously, its like when you're humping something it does less damage, but still does damage) even had its heat lowered. I think PPCs should have 10 heat and ERPPCs should have 15, like in TT. 12v12 has made PPCs even better in comparison to A/Cs and missiles, there is a reason they generate so much heat.

Probably don't need the ghost heat thing anymore, but I think a better solution could have been produced anyway.

OP honestly, if you have such a problem with PPCs being too poor right now, without the multiplier (then they are very hot), then you just don't really know what the game is like. PPCs are the best weapons handsdown. If you were to ask, "If you could only use one weapon in the entire game, only one for all of your mechs forever more, which one?" PPC would easily take the cake. I run Jenners, and I would still probably choose PPC, Medium Lasers would probably be pretty high up there too for lighter mech pilots.

I'd choose the AC10.. FupDup will argue with me til he is blue in the face over that, but since I run heavies, I run paired heavy weapons, and the lower heat and higher RoF of them more than make up for their disadvantages. Also they have superior range to the PPC, and if one thinks that a dual ER PPC mech is gonna outmatch a dual ac10 mech at anything but sniping, they need to get out more. (AKA, actually run both side by side and compare. The K2 or Jager or Cataphract all have the ability to run either. The K2 and Phract will be better Snipers with PPCs, but that is due to their hgih location, not their comparable effectiveness.)

Admittedly on lighter chassis, like Mediums, PPCs win out simply because the mech doesn't have the mass available to effectively use paired heavy ballistics.

As for too hot? PPC I am fine with. If one can use the ER PPC effectively, have fun and do it, for me, and my personal fighting style, they run too hot. And I would bet that axcept for long range snipers, or point blank brawlers, if people were to run 20 matches with ER PPC, and the 20 with PPC, they will see their average damage and KDr improve because of the higher sustainable rate of fire.

I am not of the DPS school of thought, as I feel few mechs and pilots can effectively keep a stream of shells on target, to one location long enough to truly be effective, at least not without being cored out by bigger guns while you stand there shooting. That said, I do feel you need to have heat sustainability. If you are unable to fire back at an exposed enemy because your heat is too high, and it would shut you down, then all the other advantages the weapon has are moot. If I have a 20 pt strike I can fire every 2.5 seconds without worries, versus one that I can fire 2-3 times, then have to hide and cool off, I feel the first is the better "real world" build.

Again, though, that is by MY playstyle. Something all the tub-thumping, soapbox pontificating and arguing over these topics seem to utterly miss. What works well for you, does NOT always work well for someone else. We all have different ability and speciaties, which effect what works for us. What is "optimal" or efficacious, is oftentimes largely subjective.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 August 2013 - 10:51 AM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

They are not hot enough!

[Lightfoot]

DHS 2.0 before Clans arrive. The game will be so much easier to balance with both factions having good DHS. Then you could use the Battletech heat ratings too. If not Clans will be the only faction with adequate cooling because Clan DHS are two criticals instead of three.

[FupDup]

ICEFANG13, on 18 August 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

...
I don't remember that thread, maybe I did, however...
...

I dug upViktor's old thread from July about his 4 PPC Stalker impressions:
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Here is an interesting quote he made:

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

First I was supprised at how heat manageable they were though you still couldn't continious fire more than 3 burst without overheat and I found myself having to alt fire pairs at least 50% of the time. Heat was definately still an issue but I would rate it mostly manageable.

So he didn't chain fire 90% of the time like I mis-remembered above, although 50% is still way too often. Also, it turns out that it wasn't you who replied to that thread, it was Ice Serpent. Bad memory FTL.

Bishop Steiner, on 18 August 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

FupDup will argue with me til he is blue in the face over that...

Edited by FupDup, 18 August 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 August 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

I'd choose the AC10.. FupDup will argue with me til he is blue in the face over that, but since I run heavies, I run paired heavy weapons, and the lower heat and higher RoF of them more than make up for their disadvantages. Also they have superior range to the PPC, and if one thinks that a dual ER PPC mech is gonna outmatch a dual ac10 mech at anything but sniping, they need to get out more. (AKA, actually run both side by side and compare. The K2 or Jager or Cataphract all have the ability to run either. The K2 and Phract will be better Snipers with PPCs, but that is due to their hgih location, not their comparable effectiveness.)

Admittedly on lighter chassis, like Mediums, PPCs win out simply because the mech doesn't have the mass available to effectively use paired heavy ballistics.

As for too hot? PPC I am fine with. If one can use the ER PPC effectively, have fun and do it, for me, and my personal fighting style, they run too hot. And I would bet that axcept for long range snipers, or point blank brawlers, if people were to run 20 matches with ER PPC, and the 20 with PPC, they will see their average damage and KDr improve because of the higher sustainable rate of fire.

In a straight up comparison, an A/C-10 plus two tons of ammo is 14t/9s, it generates 1.2 HPS with 4DPS and has a potential 300 damage max. 2 PPCs 14t/6s has 4.5HPS and 5DPS and has unlimited potential damage. It does get hotter from there, but you can't get more than 3 A/C-10s on a mech, and only one can do it, 6 PPC is more approachable by a few mechs, although less effective than 4 usually. A/C-10s have less optimal range, but more potential range, but with such low ammo values vs 12 mechs, you can't be too wasteful with it.

I'm not saying the A/C-10 is worse than the PPC, but if you could only choose one weapon to use forevermore and not others on any other mechs you would choose the A//C-10? You couldn't even really pilot Mediums or Lights with that choice, and only a few mechs can even carry 2.

Honestly, I'd pick the 4 PPC Catapult to win a majority of engagements over the 2 A/C-10 Catapult, in a random setting each time.

[Bishop Steiner]

ICEFANG13, on 18 August 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

In a straight up comparison, an A/C-10 plus two tons of ammo is 14t/9s, it generates 1.2 HPS with 4DPS and has a potential 300 damage max. 2 PPCs 14t/6s has 4.5HPS and 5DPS and has unlimited potential damage. It does get hotter from there, but you can't get more than 3 A/C-10s on a mech, and only one can do it, 6 PPC is more approachable by a few mechs, although less effective than 4 usually. A/C-10s have less optimal range, but more potential range, but with such low ammo values vs 12 mechs, you can't be too wasteful with it.

I'm not saying the A/C-10 is worse than the PPC, but if you could only choose one weapon to use forevermore and not others on any other mechs you would choose the A//C-10? You couldn't even really pilot Mediums or Lights with that choice, and only a few mechs can even carry 2.

Honestly, I'd pick the 4 PPC Catapult to win a majority of engagements over the 2 A/C-10 Catapult, in a random setting each time.

I would love that 4 PPC catapult. Seeing them overheated with internal damage from Ghost Heat will make coring them out while they frantically try to restart so much easier. Also in the K2 comparison, mt mech can carry 4 Medium lasers, so equal damage potential, while NOT being in heat override the whole time.

Add into this I can get in your face with fully effective weapons, or snipe at you at 1300 meters whereas your max range is 1080? That for every time you fire your PPC twice, I am realistically firing my ACs a 3rd time?

So, does that make the AC10 better? For me? Yes. Because I play to the strengths of my guns. Unlimited ammo is nice in theory, but only if you can actually use it. I might only have 100 rounds for my ACs, but by the time I run dry 4-6 mechs are usually dead. Seems like in actual practice, it is plenty.

Whilst it will be decried as ad-hominum, all I care about is what works for ME. And in the 4 mechs I have converted to AC10 carriers (My K2, JM-6DD. JM-6A and CTF-ILYA) I have in the last two weeks added an average of nearly 200 pts damage per match, and 2 kills, while doubling my KDr or more in most of them (my Ilya I had never found a build I excelled in, and between that, 8 man PPCrape, Lrmpacolypse had a KDr of 0.64. No tjsut bad, but REAL bad. Now, running in PuG and 12 man Competitive drops, it is already up to a 2.44 KDr and still climbing steadily.)

In the Jager-DD and Ilya, I have had my first 1000 pt damage matches that didn't involve broken LRMs or the height of Raven-3L cheeze. Might not mean much to some folk, but for me to go from average of 1 kill and 350 damage a match to 4 kills and 600?

And since NONE of my primary mechs run PPCs? (my other regular chassis being HBK-4G and Victors.), can't say I would get much use from them. I LIKE PPCs, but have few builds that suit me better by running them, actually. I don't do well in Lights, so that is not an issue, and Neither the HBK or the Centurion really use them effectively, IMO, so again, not a factor.

I don't Pop or Peektart, and have exactly ONE Mech with Gauss and PPC, which I still use at Medium Range, my VTR-9K.

I get more use in my mechs out of ACs, Machine Guns, SRMS and Medium Lasers. So Gauss, PPC, LRMs and Large Lasers rally are a non factor for my use.


*Shrugs* I'll stick with what works, and let the forum accountants argue over the theoretical numbers.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 August 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[Huntsman]

Anyone remember what PPC heat was originally? Before long range fighting exploded folks complained that ppcs were too hot an thus ineffective. Folks founds the wespon to be underwhelming compared to what it did in prior MechWarrior games. Thus, PPCs had their heat reduced.

Once larger maps arrived, and a number of mechs hit the field that were ideal for poptarting PPCs did as well, PPCs were suddenly found to be OP and too cool running.

The PPCs doesn't seem to be the problem, only the shifting nature of the game along with the culture of the player base.

[ICEFANG13]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 August 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

I would love that 4 PPC catapult. Seeing them overheated with internal damage from Ghost Heat will make coring them out while they frantically try to restart so much easier. Also in the K2 comparison, mt mech can carry 4 Medium lasers, so equal damage potential, while NOT being in heat override the whole time.

Add into this I can get in your face with fully effective weapons, or snipe at you at 1300 meters whereas your max range is 1080? That for every time you fire your PPC twice, I am realistically firing my ACs a 3rd time?

So, does that make the AC10 better? For me? Yes. Because I play to the strengths of my guns. Unlimited ammo is nice in theory, but only if you can actually use it. I might only have 100 rounds for my ACs, but by the time I run dry 4-6 mechs are usually dead. Seems like in actual practice, it is plenty.

Whilst it will be decried as ad-hominum, all I care about is what works for ME. And in the 4 mechs I have converted to AC10 carriers (My K2, JM-6DD. JM-6A and CTF-ILYA) I have in the last two weeks added an average of nearly 200 pts damage per match, and 2 kills, while doubling my KDr or more in most of them (my Ilya I had never found a build I excelled in, and between that, 8 man PPCrape, Lrmpacolypse had a KDr of 0.64. No tjsut bad, but REAL bad. Now, running in PuG and 12 man Competitive drops, it is already up to a 2.44 KDr and still climbing steadily.)

In the Jager-DD and Ilya, I have had my first 1000 pt damage matches that didn't involve broken LRMs or the height of Raven-3L cheeze. Might not mean much to some folk, but for me to go from average of 1 kill and 350 damage a match to 4 kills and 600?

And since NONE of my primary mechs run PPCs? (my other regular chassis being HBK-4G and Victors.), can't say I would get much use from them. I LIKE PPCs, but have few builds that suit me better by running them, actually. I don't do well in Lights, so that is not an issue, and Neither the HBK or the Centurion really use them effectively, IMO, so again, not a factor.

I don't Pop or Peektart, and have exactly ONE Mech with Gauss and PPC, which I still use at Medium Range, my VTR-9K.

I get more use in my mechs out of ACs, Machine Guns, SRMS and Medium Lasers. So Gauss, PPC, LRMs and Large Lasers rally are a non factor for my use.


*Shrugs* I'll stick with what works, and let the forum accountants argue over the theoretical numbers.

Although you should keep using what you like, you can't really assume that the A/C-10 mech is so good (like staying at max range, never overheating or having ammo problems) and assume the PPC mech is so bad because of the pilot. A good pilot will not over heat randomly, and fire in groups of two. Plus in this interesting situation we're assuming one weapon not multiple kinds, a Gauss 2PPC cat will beat both pretty easily.

Obviously you've made your choice and that's fine, and of course you aren't really limited to one or the other.

[One Medic Army]

If you can't get PPCs to work, in their current state, then you just need to get better at aiming and heat management.

[Bishop Steiner]

ICEFANG13, on 18 August 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Although you should keep using what you like, you can't really assume that the A/C-10 mech is so good (like staying at max range, never overheating or having ammo problems) and assume the PPC mech is so bad because of the pilot. A good pilot will not over heat randomly, and fire in groups of two. Plus in this interesting situation we're assuming one weapon not multiple kinds, a Gauss 2PPC cat will beat both pretty easily.

Obviously you've made your choice and that's fine, and of course you aren't really limited to one or the other.

If I said one was good while the other was bad, I could see the argument. All I said is that for me, i vastly prefer and do better with AC10 over the PPC. Both have their strengths, and weaknesses. Both have chassis, play styles and such they are better suited for.

What I am saying is that too many people look at the weight and ammo and dismiss the ac10 out of hand as inferior somehow, without actually stepping out of the SmurfyLab and using them in game. Massively lower heat and higher cycle time is HUGE and overlooked all too often. a Pair of PPC means 18 heat every time you pull the trigger, or 24 for ER PPC. I get 6. And in 2.5 seconds, I am firing again, for 6 more heat. in 10 second, 2 PPc or or ER PPC , scoring 40 damage for 36-48 vs my Dual AC10 laying out 80 damage for 24 heat. (Note a Quad PPC Catapult could lay out a similar 80 pts in 10 seconds, but would do so at the cost of 72 heat or 132.5 pts if you alpha and get the heat penalty. IN either case you are also in heat shutdown at this point, whereas if I am not cored out, I am now pouring at least 2 volleys into your cockpit or CT before you are up and moving again. And even then you realistically can't afford to fire as even 1-2 PPC will again shut you down)

The more you fire, the more the endurance vs damage model leans in my favor. (At least until I run out of ammo, when the PPC again gets to laugh at me.) 14 DHS has me totally heat neutral. 14 is enough to make dual PPC usable, but you are going to be running at he edge of overheat nonstop.

But that's all good for me. Means people will keep assuming my mech to be inferior when they see my loadout and either ignore me, allowing for an easy kill, or try to hunt me down, assuming an easy kill, and then I get to enjoy their desperation when they realize that I am the hunter, and they are the hunted.

As stated for snipers, the heat is irrelevant. For Lighter mechs, the weight IS an issue. in the 65-80 ton range I tend to make my home? It's the perfect weapon. When 4 PPC builds are REALLY viable and effective, I will worry more about being able to carry them. But since after that first alpha or two, they are not able to actually USE all 4 PPC anymore anyhow, I don't think it's a great comparison, TBH.

Again though, my point is not to vilify a weapon, or to champion another as the bestest gun ever. Simply to point out that many of us have found highly effective and viable alternatives to the PPC/Gauss Meta.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 August 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

I will say this, as a light mech pilot I've never used ballistics over 2s, I never knew the A/C-10 was so good.

[MechMacaw]

YueFei, on 18 August 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

The game punishes players trying to do DPS in general. High heat cap, but slow dissipation rate. =/

Koniving has a good idea how to fix the heat scale, just hard limit the heat cap at 30, done, end of story. No piloting efficiencies to increase the heat cap. Heat sinks do not raise the cap. Then make DHS true double heat sinks.

They actually said no to this because people could "exploit heat neutral builds"... I find that silly because if you got something heat neutral you'd probably be sacrificing DPS or it would be heat neutral anyways with the current system. Its so simple and would get rid of these high alpha builds and they would need to chain fire or switch to a better loadout. If they lowered the cap and increased heat dissipation it would make the gameplay so much better.

[Bishop Steiner]

ICEFANG13, on 18 August 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

I will say this, as a light mech pilot I've never used ballistics over 2s, I never knew the A/C-10 was so good.

until 2 weeks ago, when I was bored and trying to find something new to do with my Ilya, neither did I. And the success I had with them on it made me finally dust off my JM6-DD, which I had stopped running because I had found running an AC40 Jager kinda .... boring.

and so was born the JM6-HARD

the official Jagermech of HARDCorps Gaming.