28 replies to this topic

[Deadmeat313]

MechLab is a weird beast in MechWarrior games. In canon, it would be unlikely that any but the most successful or wealthy of MechWarriors would have the cash and resources to modify their Mech beyond the factory standard.

Even wealthiest of them would struggle to modify Mechs to the extent that we do. The MechLab does not use the Mech-customisation rules from the original TT game - it uses the Mech Construction rules. What this means is that when you strip all the weapons off your Quickdraw, change the internal structure to Endo Steel, and whack PPCs into all the energy hardpoints - what you are doing is in effect designing a TOTALLY NEW MECH from the ground up.

Now, I understand why MechLab exists in the MechWarrior games. The earlier games were limited in the number of Mech chassis they could feature. Things could have got pretty boring with only five Mechs total you can play. MWO had exactly the same problem in early Beta.

MWO has now broken that mould though. A quick count in game shows :

• 14 Light Mech variants across 4 distinct chassis
  
• 23 Medium Mech variants across 6 distinct chassis
  
• 18 Heavy Mech variants across 5 distinct chassis
  
• 21 Assault Mech variants across 5 distinct chassis

Along with the 12 Hero Mechs, that is 88 different Mechs in game. And that is before Operation Phoenix adds 12 more variants. And PGI are adding more designs every month!



It is a crying shame that the vast majority of these designs are (by all accounts) immediately stripped of their components on purchase to provide room for 2 ERPPCs and a Gauss Rifle. People don't talk about what the Mechs can do, only its hardpoint layout. It seems to be a given here that nobody drives stock Mechs - and if one does he is a hindrance to his team.

This is not the fault of the players. It is natural to seek an advantage at all times. The fault is the game design, specifically MECH LAB.

The rules for modifying Mechs need to become a lot stricter. My suggestions:


LIMIT WHAT CAN GO WHERE
Hardpoint size would be a great first step.
Endo Steel should not be re-fittable. If it is not on the chassis when you buy it, then sorry you can't have it. Endo Steel IS the structure of the chassis!


MODIFICATION TAX
Everything refitted onto a chassis should weigh more (maybe 10%) to represent the difficulty of re-designing the structure and linkages etc and to keep the Mech balanced afterwards. This should apply to weapons and engines certainly - but not to armour (and maybe heat sinks).


RENOWN THRESHOLD
Optional suggestion: If pilots are to accrue Renown or Loyalty Points in game, make it so they have to earn a certain amount of points in a chassis before they are allowed to start mucking about with it? (Hmmm. Might work / might be bloody annoying.)



IN CONCLUSION:
With a reduced MechLab, the killing power of Mechs will be reduced across the board. This will affect everyone equally. TTK will be increased, so the game becomes more tactical. The stock Mech designs will actually start to look appealing - which is good because they were designed to have some personality.

Edited by Deadmeat313, 18 August 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[Khobai]

Reducing Mechlab freedom is an even better way to make sure that only certain Mechs ever get used. Absolute freedom is not the problem. The problem is the lack of balanced choices. There is literally no reason to use any other weapons besides ERPPC/Gauss because nothing else is as good.

A better way to fix the game is to balance all five subsets of weapons so that every subset of weapons has distinct strengths and weaknesses and are relatively equal in power level. What that does is give players the tools to design mechs that can counter the dominant mech and promotes a healthy ever-changing metagame. We also need more equipment options like blue shield, reflective armor, etc... which will help to counter the dominant weapon of the month and drive the meta in a different direction.

In addition to that we need more unique "quirks" to differentiate similar mechs. This could even be done through the skill system by giving each mech unique skills that reinforce its canon role. There should be a compelling reason to use every mech in the game (although not necessarily every variant because that would be too hard to do).

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2013 - 05:35 AM.

[Deadmeat313]

Khobai, I agree that weapons need to be further balanced to give pilots a reason to want to use them.

The problem with the MechLab is that it allows a player to take virtually any Mech chassis and put his favourite weapon loadout on it. This means that new Mech designs mean virtually nothing beyond slightly different missile/energy/ballistic hardpoints that may have slightly lower/higher placement.

I think there are enough designs in play now that a player can find a Mech that suits his play style in the stock variants. And since Gaussapults and PPC StalkerBoats and AC40 Jagers would be impossible, there would be less pressure to field a design with max alpha to compete.

I for one don't think we'd see one design totally dominating the others. Some chassis/variants would be more common than others, but as different Mechs favour different playstyles we should still see a good variety.

[Hotthedd]

Hardpoint size restrictions seem an obvious fix to me. Endo-Steel, on the other hand, should be possible, but be much more expensive AND time consuming. It is, as the OP pointed out, the very FRAME of the mech. Ferro-Fibrous armor could be made less expensive to balance things out.

[Deadmeat313]

Hotthedd, on 18 August 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

Hardpoint size restrictions seem an obvious fix to me. Endo-Steel, on the other hand, should be possible, but be much more expensive AND time consuming. It is, as the OP pointed out, the very FRAME of the mech. Ferro-Fibrous armor could be made less expensive to balance things out.

In canon, Ferro Fibrous gives less of a bonus than Endo Steel, but is possible to retrofit to a Mech. I think Ferro would be used quite often if Endo was restricted.

[Hotthedd]

Deadmeat313, on 18 August 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

In canon, Ferro Fibrous gives less of a bonus than Endo Steel, but is possible to retrofit to a Mech. I think Ferro would be used quite often if Endo was restricted.

OR if Endo-Steel retro-fitting was made costly and time-consuming, but Ferro-Fibrous was cheaper and easier to install. You could also allow Ferro-Fibrous and Standard Armor, once purchased, something that could be kept in inventory, so that switching back (maybe once you have the C-bills for Endo) could be done at a reasonable price.

[Deadmeat313]

I agree we could balance it by cost. I'm not sure what you mean by making it "time consuming". Currently all changes are effectively instant, and I'm not sure if players would be happy with their Mech being taken out of circulation for any length of time.

This is a pick up and play game really, so any battle is reasonably assumed to be taking place AFTER any necessary down time.

[Hotthedd]

Deadmeat313, on 18 August 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I agree we could balance it by cost. I'm not sure what you mean by making it "time consuming". Currently all changes are effectively instant, and I'm not sure if players would be happy with their Mech being taken out of circulation for any length of time.

This is a pick up and play game really, so any battle is reasonably assumed to be taking place AFTER any necessary down time.

That is what I mean. Time consuming IRL. the numbers could be tweaked, but an internal structure refit could take hours. I am all for adding a layer of immersion.

[Deadmeat313]

Fair enough, but I'm afraid I must disagree about any real-time costs in game.

When we hit LAUNCH on the main screen, we are already assuming that :

The Mech has been fully serviced and loaded,

And we have been loaded onto a DropShip,

Which has then transited at 1G accel for 2 weeks to reach its parent JumpShip,

Which (when loaded) has jumped - instantaneously - up to 30 light years to the target star system.

Our DropShip has then detatched,

And transited at 1G accel for approx 2 weeks to get to the target world,

And we've entered low-orbit and performed a Mech Drop onto the world near the target area,

And we've travelled to the target.

Aaaaand fecking hell it looks like Caustic Valley again. And I've died to ERPPC fire to the face.
Back to lobby. Select new Mech. Hit LAUNCH.

Edited by Deadmeat313, 18 August 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[TexAce]

Deadmeat313, on 18 August 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Fair enough, but I'm afraid I must disagree about any real-time costs in game.

When we hit LAUNCH on the main screen, we are already assuming that :

The Mech has been fully serviced and loaded,

And we have been loaded onto a DropShip,

Which has then transited at 1G accel for 2 weeks to reach its parent JumpShip,

Which (when loaded) has jumped - instantaneously - up to 30 light years to the target star system.

Our DropShip has then detatched,

And transited at 1G accel for approx 2 weeks to get to the target world,

And we've entered low-orbit and performed a Mech Drop onto the world near the target area,

And we've travelled to the target.

Aaaaand fecking hell it looks like Caustic Valley again. And I've died to ERPPC fire to the face.
Back to lobby. Select new Mech. Hit LAUNCH.

You are one of the hardcore nutjobs a game developer should never listen to.

[Hotthedd]

As far as the real-time wait for internal structure is concerned, I am pretty sure we all sleep. No, it wouldn't accommodate someone swapping back and forth to tweak their build, but I think the C-bill cost already provided discourages that for most people.

[HIemfire]

Deadmeat313, on 18 August 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

Even wealthiest of them would struggle to modify Mechs to the extent that we do. The MechLab does not use the Mech-customisation rules from the original TT game - it uses the Mech Construction rules. What this means is that when you strip all the weapons off your Quickdraw, change the internal structure to Endo Steel, and whack PPCs into all the energy hardpoints - what you are doing is in effect designing a TOTALLY NEW MECH from the ground up.

http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/ is an actual representation of using the mech construstion rules (Mechwarrior has not used this system since MW3).

Please, for the sake of accuarcy in your rant, review the actual mech customization rules that are in print now in Strategic Operations (starts on page 188 for refit kits and 189 for full customization). To summarize slightly, in MWO we are bound by up to Class C refits/customizations for the mostpart (changing heatsink types, chassis to and from endo and swapping to and from XL engines is a class E or F) but with added restrictions of Tag having to be put in energy slots and AMS and ecm having fixed slots and ecm only being able to be added to a few chassis (not that I'm complaining on that, ECM needs major work in my opinion).

Before you erroniously make comparisons in the future I suggest actually knowing what an apple and an orange are before you call a cumquat one.

Edited by HIemfire, 18 August 2013 - 02:03 PM.

[Deadmeat313]

TexAss, on 18 August 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

You are one of the hardcore nutjobs a game developer should never listen to.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm not suggesting we actually wait for weeks to pass between games. My point was that if we start saying "You can have that thing but it'll take REAL time for it to be completed", then it doesn't really work in a universe where everything takes loads of time.

We can rightly assume as players that whatever logistical effort to get us combat ready and onto the battlefield has already been completed. We pick up the action where the fighting begins.

[PanzerMagier]

I don't think they should limit mech lab customization, only penalize it.

"so you want a stalker with 4 ppcs? Cool, you can do that, just keep in mind of the following penalties etc..."

The closer you stay to the stock design of a mech, the more benefits you get. Kind of like armour set bonuses for RPG's.

Should greatly limit the amount of completely wacked out mechs in the game.

[Hammerfinn]

Annnd I think it's one of the most fun, unique, and awesome things about this game. And it would be boneheaded to limit it for any reason whatsoever. I'm all for immersion, but ******* this game is already so grindy, anything that would add any MORE time to the grind, or reduce customization during the grind, is idiotic and counterproductive.

[Deadmeat313]

HIemfire, on 18 August 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/ is an actual representation of using the mech construstion rules (Mechwarrior has not used this system since MW3).

Please, for the sake of accuarcy in your rant, review the actual mech customization rules that are in print now in Strategic Operations (starts on page 188 for refit kits and 189 for full customization). To summarize slightly, in MWO we are bound by up to Class C refits/customizations for the mostpart (changing heatsink types, chassis to and from endo and swapping to and from XL engines is a class E or F) but with added restrictions of Tag having to be put in energy slots and AMS and ecm having fixed slots and ecm only being able to be added to a few chassis (not that I'm complaining on that, ECM needs major work in my opinion).

Before you erroniously make comparisons in the future I suggest actually knowing what an apple and an orange are before you call a cumquat one.

I have that book. The page you quote states that to change a Mech from standard to Endo Steel requires a specific refit kit, that can only be applied to the chassis in a Mech Factory. Basically they are saying this is done by the designers or not at all.

Even in the factory it is rated as difficult and time consuming.

And the Refit Kits do not give complete freedom to customise the Mech. They are pre-determined to alter a variant to a different variant of the same chassis.

The full customisation rules do allow more "creativity", but require all the same facilities as a refit job (ie Factory for the advanced stuff), and come at a significant risk of expensive failure.

[Deadmeat313]

PanzerMagier, on 18 August 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

I don't think they should limit mech lab customization, only penalize it.

"so you want a stalker with 4 ppcs? Cool, you can do that, just keep in mind of the following penalties etc..."

The closer you stay to the stock design of a mech, the more benefits you get. Kind of like armour set bonuses for RPG's.

Should greatly limit the amount of completely wacked out mechs in the game.

Agreed. My suggestion was a 10% weight penalty on installed components. A refitted Gauss Rifle would go from 15 to 16.5 tons, I think? The intent is to discourage the stripping and replacing of ALL the weapons on a Mech, while still allowing some interesting modified designs.

[Koniving]

It's not so much what you can put in to your mech that is a problem.

It's our heat capacity system. MW2, you had 40. MW3, you had 30. MW4, the most poorly balanced MW game to ever exist before MWO, had 60 before MekTek then according to a wiki I found it's based on your chassis after Mektek.

What do we have? First some definitions.
Capacity is the limit until shutdown. A threshold. Hit it, you shut down.
Dissipation, this is your cooling rate.

MWO's system. 10 Standard heatsinks.

Capacity: 30 base + (10*1) = 40.
Dissipation: 40-30 base = 10 per 10 seconds / 10 = 1/sec.

Not bad, is it?

MWO's system. 10 double engine-mounted heatsinks.

Capacity: 30 base + (10*2) = 50.
Dissipation: 50-30 base = 20 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2/sec.

Wait. It just doubled in cooling power + an extra 10 heat threshold? Already stock mechs are screwed.

"So why did you mention engine DHS, Kon?"
Watch this!


MWO's system. 6 double engine-mounted heatsinks + 4 chassis-mounted double heatsinks

Capacity: 30 base + (6*2 engine) + (4*1.4 chassis)= 47.6.
Dissipation: 47.6-30 base = 17.6 per 10 seconds / 10 = 1.76/sec.

Wait.. "To be limited to 6 engine heatsinks you must be using a 150 engine, right?"
Right. If you don't have a 250 engine minimum, you can't shoot as much as someone else with the same number of DHS.
Sucks doesn't it?

"What's that mean for the Locust? The Flea? The Commando? The Blackjack? Any mech that can't mount even a 250 engine?"
Inferior in every way possible, on top of their already given weaknesses because they can't shoot as much.

"That sounds pretty bad."

But it gets worse...

How about this build here? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a7e8bb80a763aa2
Here we go.
15 DHS
Capacity: 30 base + (10*2 engine) + (5*1.4 chassis)= 57.
Dissipation: 57-30 base = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7/sec.

Doesn't sound like much of an improvement, does it? Okay so it seems fair. Wait for it...
Atlas RS just got Basic unlocks! O_O!

SAME BUILD WITH BASICS!
Here we go.
15 DHS
Capacity: 30 base + (10*2 engine) + (5*1.4 chassis)= 57 + heat containment 10% = 62.7!!
Dissipation: 57-30 base = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7/sec. + Cool run 7.5% = 2.9025/sec.

Wait, it gets even worse! Elites!

SAME BUILD WITH ELITES
Here we go.
15 DHS
Capacity: 30 base + (10*2 engine) + (5*1.4 chassis)= 57 + heat containment 20% = 68.4!
Dissipation: 57-30 base = 27 per 10 seconds / 10 = 2.7/sec. + Cool run 15% = 3.105/sec.

Worse? Here we go.
This build. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a426158bfa3a094
We're going straight to Elites baby!
19 DHS
Capacity: 30 base + (10*2 engine) + (9*1.4 chassis)= 62.6 + heat containment 20% = 75.12!
Dissipation: 62.6-30 base = 32.6 per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.26/sec. + Cool run 15% = 3.749/sec.

How long would it take to shut down, without penalties, if I fired the 4 PPCs non-stop at 9 heat?
36 heat per alpha strike. 1 Alpha Strike per 4 seconds. 36/4.
3.749/sec * 4 = 14.996/4.
36/4 = 9/sec.
14.996/4 = 3.749/sec.
0+ 9/sec - 3.749/sec = gain of 5.251/sec.
75.12 capacity / 5.251/sec = 14.30584650542754 seconds. We'll just call it 14.31 seconds to shutdown with constant alpha striking.

That same Atlas now cools faster AND guess what? On top of cooling faster he has to hit a minimum of 75.12 to shut down. Worse? With the new penalty system, he can't hit that realistically unless he spams his shots like a lunatic. Thus... heat doesn't matter!

I've come up with builds that reach over 90 capacity, although the most realistic build hit 88.56.

So... where in lies the problem? What you can put on your mech, or a rising heat capacity (threshold, limit to shutdown)?

Here's the difference from the tabletop and MW3 standard...
We'll use that last Atlas build.
19 DHS if done like it should have been.
Capacity. 30. Period. Doesn't rise with heatsinks ever. + MWO's elite level Heat Containment 20% = 36.
Dissipation:19*2 = 38 per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.8/sece + MWO's elite level Cool Run 15% = 4.37/sec

How long would it take to shut down, without penalties, if I fired the 4 PPCs non-stop at 9 heat?
36 heat per alpha strike. 1 Alpha Strike per 4 seconds. 36/4.
4.37/sec * 4 = 17.48/4.
36/4 = 9/sec.
17.48/4 = 4.37/sec.
0+ 9/sec - 4.37/sec = gain of 4.63/sec.
36 capacity / 4.63/sec = 7.775377969762419 seconds. We'll just call it 7.78 seconds to shutdown with constant alpha striking.

But here's the kicker. With unlocks and a proper TT or MW3 system, you just fired 36 heat, with a 36 heat cap. Cooling or not, you hit that cap, you shut down immediately! Problem solved. No heat penalties. No magic mumbo jumbo. No screwing with the mechlabs.

With proper heat levels on the PPCs, that 2 PPC + gauss problem? It'll become a 1 PPC + 2 gauss problem. You know how fragile a gauss rifle is right? How much heavier it is? It'll phase out eventually with the double risk involved, and you can't put it on as many mechs!

Now, wasn't that just so much easier?

[Corvus Antaka]

probably be a lot easier just to tweak the PPC & gauss some more so they are balanced.

long standing thing is to cut the heatcap and up dissipation. It might? work. PGI seems to have concerns with this approach. more ppc heat and gauss tweaks for dual gauss would probably be a more PGI like approach given adjustments made to date.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 18 August 2013 - 11:08 PM.

[Deadmeat313]

Excellent post, Koniving! I agree 100%.

Fixing heat dissipation would massively help this game in so many ways.


The reasoning behind my original post was more about how all the massive variety of designs we now have in game - and are coming to the game - are being met with "meh" from the community. They see any new designs released as just another set of hardpoints and engine cap. This bothers me.


D313