47 replies to this topic

[Velixo]

Bhael Fire, on 20 August 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

They haven't implemented "hardcore mode" yet that was in public test. There were two queues.

Sure, there were two queues in public testing, but queues aren't mentioned in the patch notes, only a button to switch modes.

[Mechteric]

If they had made the drone a module then it would make sense it could be destroyed, but from the perspective of why they added 3pv (aka mostly for new players), that would simply be the wrong thing to do and would do more to turn them off. The patch is live now, just give this thing a try and you'll see that 3pv is its own hindrance already for those with the skills already.

[Bhael Fire]

Velixo, on 20 August 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Sure, there were two queues in public testing, but queues aren't mentioned in the patch notes, only a button to switch modes.

Did you miss the first part of what I said? They haven't implemented it yet. There are going to be two queues.

[Velixo]

When did they mention hardcore mode? I feel like a terrible forum warrior xD

[TheBossHammer]

CapperDeluxe, on 20 August 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

If they had made the drone a module then it would make sense it could be destroyed, but from the perspective of why they added 3pv (aka mostly for new players), that would simply be the wrong thing to do and would do more to turn them off. The patch is live now, just give this thing a try and you'll see that 3pv is its own hindrance already for those with the skills already.

I definitely will, just wanted to get the suggestion out before the patch. If it seems ok I'll ask for the topic to be locked, but I wanted to get my thoughts down in case what I'm afraid of ends up happening. It's not the players that only use 3PV that worry me, it's the ones that get good enough at switching back and forth to use it as an exploit that worry me.

Velixo, on 20 August 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

When did they mention hardcore mode? I feel like a terrible forum warrior xD

Don't worry too much about it, PGI's been a little opaque lately. It was mentioned in one of the big news updates a while back I think (though I could be wrong), the one where they previewed 3PV on the test server.

[Doomstryke]

If this was truly meant for training purposes why isn't 3rd person mode only available in training grounds. That way person can admire their mech, learn how it moves all that crap then go play with everyone else in 1st person mode.. That is the only way it would make sense to say 3rd person view is meant "learn how your mech works" If its available anywhere else its not meant for training purposes

[Velixo]

Doomstryke, on 20 August 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

If this was truly meant for training purposes why isn't 3rd person mode only available in training grounds. That way person can admire their mech, learn how it moves all that crap then go play with everyone else in 1st person mode.. That is the only way it would make sense to say 3rd person view is meant "learn how your mech works" If its available anywhere else its not meant for training purposes

I think most players are interested in getting into the action immediately, rather than playing a tutorial.

[Mechteric]

TheBossHammer, on 20 August 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

[size=4]
It's not the players that only use 3PV that worry me, it's the ones that get good enough at switching back and forth to use it as an exploit that worry me.

its not an exploit, the enemy can see your blinky drone from a mile away (at least thats how it was in test)

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 20 August 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[TheBossHammer]

CapperDeluxe, on 20 August 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

its not an exploit, the enemy can see your blinky drone from a mile away (at least thats how it was in test)

That's not what I'm getting at. Think about it with poptarting. You don't care if the enemy can see you, all you care about is that you know where the enemy is before you jump. You pop into third person for barely more than a second, spot your target and line up your guns, and have a perfect shot when you jump in first person. That's what used to happen in MW4, and while the alphas were wayyy bigger in that game (the mektek packs added the maurader mkII which could hold 2 Clan Guass Rifles and a railgun...) it's still the same problem.

Doomstryke, on 20 August 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

If this was truly meant for training purposes why isn't 3rd person mode only available in training grounds. That way person can admire their mech, learn how it moves all that crap then go play with everyone else in 1st person mode.. That is the only way it would make sense to say 3rd person view is meant "learn how your mech works" If its available anywhere else its not meant for training purposes

If it's as gimped as everyone seems to think it is then the point would be for people to migrate to first person. Also, training grounds are only really good for letting new players figure out where to shoot a mech. You can't learn to maneuver well when nobody is shooting at you.

[Mechteric]

TheBossHammer, on 20 August 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

That's not what I'm getting at. Think about it with poptarting. You don't care if the enemy can see you, all you care about is that you know where the enemy is before you jump. You pop into third person for barely more than a second, spot your target and line up your guns, and have a perfect shot when you jump in first person. That's what used to happen in MW4, and while the alphas were wayyy bigger in that game (the mektek packs added the maurader mkII which could hold 2 Clan Guass Rifles and a railgun...) it's still the same problem.

Keep in mind MW4 poptarting wasn't easy because of 3pv really, it was because there was no jump jet shake, which as we saw previously in MWO even when 1pv only with no shake it was a much bigger problem. And like I said before, you can see the drone a good bit before you see the mech, so you're getting even more advance notice of where they are and when they're doing it.

[Ellevehc]

I support this.

I believe that the drone is a tactical weapon for scouting. Light mechs will be able to scout without putting themselves in danger. Relaying that information to their lrm allies that can launch missiles. The drone can then be shot down and forcing the light mech to come out if it wants to continue scouting.

To help out the newer players, there needs to be a dropship lobby that is more friendly to newer players. In this lobby each player will have a total of 20 or 30 matches where they can earn MC credits, after which they will no longer be able to earn more credits. This will persuade the more experienced players to play in the more competitive dropship lobby where they can continue to earn mc credits.

The drone is not something that only one team can take advantage of. Giving the mechs submarine like binoculars would make scouting and light/lrm combinations much more force. The drone can be shot down to prevent poptarting abuse.

[TheBossHammer]

CapperDeluxe, on 20 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Keep in mind MW4 poptarting wasn't easy because of 3pv really, it was because there was no jump jet shake, which as we saw previously in MWO even when 1pv only with no shake it was a much bigger problem. And like I said before, you can see the drone a good bit before you see the mech, so you're getting even more advance notice of where they are and when they're doing it.

You're totally right and I actually just played a game and can confirm that what I suggested probably won't work with how long view switching takes, that's really what keeps it from being broken. I still think the possibility is there though, but it's not as bad as I thought it was.

That having been said, I would say that 3PV definitely helped poptarting in MW4, even if it didn't enable it. It's kinda moot point though because 3PV takes 2 seconds to switch in MWO, which means the enemy will know exactly where you are if you try it.

Ellevehc, on 20 August 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

I support this.

I believe that the drone is a tactical weapon for scouting. Light mechs will be able to scout without putting themselves in danger. Relaying that information to their lrm allies that can launch missiles. The drone can then be shot down and forcing the light mech to come out if it wants to continue scouting.

To help out the newer players, there needs to be a dropship lobby that is more friendly to newer players. In this lobby each player will have a total of 20 or 30 matches where they can earn MC credits, after which they will no longer be able to earn more credits. This will persuade the more experienced players to play in the more competitive dropship lobby where they can continue to earn mc credits.

The drone is not something that only one team can take advantage of. Giving the mechs submarine like binoculars would make scouting and light/lrm combinations much more force. The drone can be shot down to prevent poptarting abuse.

This is also a concern, though so far I haven't seen a problem with it. It's worth exploring though, and actually the use of the drone as a diversionary tactic is a little terrifying...the other team has no way of knowing what mech put up the drone, and if a scout lance went way out to the side and tried to look like an assault lance...

[Ellevehc]

I also want to add that if third person view really does help newer players stay, then I am all up for it. I would rather build up the community and work around mechanics that help more people join the game.

My friend tried playing the game a few days ago and had a hard time trying to figure out the mechanics of turning. I wasnt there to show him, but it goes to show that third person view may have indeed helped in that situation. Most of us here in beta have been playing for a long time and it is second nature. And no, I would not expect all the newer players to immediately jump into training grounds. Most people are excited and want to jump right into the action. The training ground provides NO action. In order to make the training ground acceptable there must be bots.

Or, implement a mandatory training for each new account. I believe there was something like this in mw3? I recall being in an argus or something and shooting into the dessert. But yeah, mandatory training is something else I would support.

[Mechteric]

Ellevehc, on 20 August 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Or, implement a mandatory training for each new account. I believe there was something like this in mw3? I recall being in an argus or something and shooting into the dessert. But yeah, mandatory training is something else I would support.

yeah I remember that, it wasn't required though as it was separate button from the campaign. It was in a Bushwhacker I think, not Argus From the perspective of a developer I think they always prefer to give the choice of tutorial, because many times a force tutorial can annoy people more than anything. It was even made fun of in the Far Cry Blood Dragon game.



Starts at about 50 seconds in. Best lines are "Jump, if you wish to jump." "To look around, look around". "Just let me kill people dammit!" Good stuff.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 20 August 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[TheBossHammer]

Ellevehc, on 20 August 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

I also want to add that if third person view really does help newer players stay, then I am all up for it. I would rather build up the community and work around mechanics that help more people join the game.

My friend tried playing the game a few days ago and had a hard time trying to figure out the mechanics of turning. I wasnt there to show him, but it goes to show that third person view may have indeed helped in that situation. Most of us here in beta have been playing for a long time and it is second nature. And no, I would not expect all the newer players to immediately jump into training grounds. Most people are excited and want to jump right into the action. The training ground provides NO action. In order to make the training ground acceptable there must be bots.

Or, implement a mandatory training for each new account. I believe there was something like this in mw3? I recall being in an argus or something and shooting into the dessert. But yeah, mandatory training is something else I would support.

I'm in full agreement with all of this. I'd also add that Hawken, the other big mech game out there, has a mandatory tutorial. PGI, this would help.

[Velixo]

Ellevehc, on 20 August 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

...
But yeah, mandatory training is something else I would support.

Ugh, no thanks. I'm new to MWO (joined a month ago) but definitely not new to Mechwarrior in general. Mandatory tutorial would just be painful

[TheBossHammer]

Velixo, on 20 August 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Ugh, no thanks. I'm new to MWO (joined a month ago) but definitely not new to Mechwarrior in general. Mandatory tutorial would just be painful

Well, instead of mandatory, ask immediately: Have you ever played a mechwarrior game before? If no, Tutorial. If yes, no tutorial. Again, solves the problem.

[Corvus Antaka]

3pv is almost useless. i get motion sickness even driving the mech with it on. nevermind the torso lock making you slow and fat. visibility doesnt seem much improved either.

cool to get to look at your mech though

[Velixo]

TheBossHammer, on 20 August 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Well, instead of mandatory, ask immediately: Have you ever played a mechwarrior game before? If no, Tutorial. If yes, no tutorial. Again, solves the problem.

Oh yeah, that sounds excellent!

Edited by Velixo, 20 August 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[Jetfire]

If there are no 3PV vs 1PV queues then yes, the drone needs to be destructible and switching vision modes needs to take more time.

Otherwise you somehow have an indestructible scout drone with infinite fuel for free, while the UAV is a consumable that can be blown up and is larger.