85 replies to this topic

[Oni74]

borisof007, on 22 August 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

What mediums, and frankly all of the weight classes and chassis need, are a revamp of pilot tree skills.

Individual mech quirks are OK, but the same Pilot tree skills aren't necessarily important for each chassis, and each weight class could get something different. Or, if you really want, have a general tree with weight class/chassis specific pilot skills mixed in.

Lights' pilot trees could focus on things for scouting: Movement, sensors, maybe event countermeasures (effectiveness of BAP, TAG, NARC?), extended thermal/nightvision range?

Medium pilot trees could be focused increased acceleration/braking power, turning speed, ability to have them climb hills better/reduce effect of slopes, increased jump jet regeneration rate (maybe this should be standard? If you have an engine that's bigger than the stock one, your JJ's regen faster? Same for lower rated engines, JJ's regen slower? Just a thought as this would give another dynamic to engine choices)

Heavy pilot trees could focus more on firepower and support: Reduced cockpit shake from jumpjets, Reduced seismic impact from running, Reduced cockpit shake from weapons fire impact, Cooldown reduction for weapons,

Assault mechs should be completely battle focused, with no movement bonuses given so that native pilot skill would be absolutely crucial. Assault tree could focus on Heat dissipation rate, Max heat increase, Mech startup/shutdown speed, Reduced thermal footprint, Some others I can't think of right now XD

These are just things I thought of off the top of my head. Obviously open to critique and adjustment, but I feel like roles/weight classes need to feel more "defined" than they currently are.

I really like where you're going with this Boris. Two thumbs up on this suggestion!!!

[Deathsani]

I have been playing mediums exclusively for the past month or so. I think that, from the types of games I play, that medium mechs perform well in their given task and suffer mostly from a lack of game type variation. They handle better now then they did prior to the patch but it will be hard to test them without a proper class based balance mechanic. The changes are good, but it is hard to gage anything when you are the only medium on your team trying to fight off a few heavies.

[POWR]

With the increase in speed, I would really like to have faster turning and accell/decell on my HBKs... a 10% boost to these areas wouldn't suck

[Monky]

Flying Judgement, on 22 August 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

My report:
well i got exited about this but torso twisting is already big enough in mediums so further increase didnt made any difference for me.

in the Hunchback:
its still not strong enought not fast enough Twisting alright but it dosent matter when i cant runn away or turn around a corner and crashing to a wall instead so its need more tuning
side note.
well i bought back my old hunch what i sold tried it and i couldn't stand the fact that my average damage was less the 70.
so i sold it after playing a few hours with it. its the same horrible as it was before i tried the 4G gathered enough XP to open elite and master half way.

In the Trebuchet: it was quiet fine before. it could twist fast i could do quiet good in the trebuchet before and now didnt notice any difference same stats same its maybe better but after elite its so fast that its just become hard to use.
Its fine and balanced previous stats were fine already. so its not a buff its the same as before.

In the Cicada: same issue no difference in performance well or maybe harder to aim it was already so fast that it was hard to aim and make micro movement. i preferred the speed of my cicada before editing it i wish i could choos between them yep it feels harder to use and with low FPS its near impossible. so the twist speed is rather a limitation.

the plus torso twist welll XD i was trolling people ok running forward and locking behind me hahah sure they were suprised but i died quiet fast. its a nice bonus but its so hard to use just a very few pilot can take advantage of them.

i will ask my team how every one feels about them but as i could see not to mutch of a difference
I hope with the new UI will make u able to tweak different things in a mech as the present tipe of buffs didnt made them better different hardpoint heat armor speed turning may better but its hard see what would be the best.

have a nice day keep up the good work!

I think this is pretty strong evidence that tuning based on 'quirks' is EXTREMELY limited in what advantages it can provide and that turning speed/engine size are the most useful factors in adjusting a mech's viability.

[Errinovar]

borisof007, on 22 August 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

What mediums, and frankly all of the weight classes and chassis need, are a revamp of pilot tree skills.

Individual mech quirks are OK, but the same Pilot tree skills aren't necessarily important for each chassis, and each weight class could get something different. Or, if you really want, have a general tree with weight class/chassis specific pilot skills mixed in.

Lights' pilot trees could focus on things for scouting: Movement, sensors, maybe event countermeasures (effectiveness of BAP, TAG, NARC?), extended thermal/nightvision range?

Medium pilot trees could be focused increased acceleration/braking power, turning speed, ability to have them climb hills better/reduce effect of slopes, increased jump jet regeneration rate (maybe this should be standard? If you have an engine that's bigger than the stock one, your JJ's regen faster? Same for lower rated engines, JJ's regen slower? Just a thought as this would give another dynamic to engine choices)

Heavy pilot trees could focus more on firepower and support: Reduced cockpit shake from jumpjets, Reduced seismic impact from running, Reduced cockpit shake from weapons fire impact, Cooldown reduction for weapons,

Assault mechs should be completely battle focused, with no movement bonuses given so that native pilot skill would be absolutely crucial. Assault tree could focus on Heat dissipation rate, Max heat increase, Mech startup/shutdown speed, Reduced thermal footprint, Some others I can't think of right now XD

These are just things I thought of off the top of my head. Obviously open to critique and adjustment, but I feel like roles/weight classes need to feel more "defined" than they currently are.

I agree with this idea, but I think the JJ idea is unworkable unless you modify the skill trees so that maybe you have 8-10 possible skills (basic tree) and you can choose 4-5 of them, after which elite becomes unlocked and your basic skill tree becomes locked for that particular chassis. The reason being is that JJ capable mediums are a minority, so if it was simply a basic tree skill, most medium mechs would have to invest in a skill they cannot possibly make use of in order to unlock a higher tier.
One thing I truly believe is that heavy/assault mechs shouldn't have access to speed tweak. The extra tonnage should make for a difficult choice between firepower, speed, and armor. Or perhaps the pilot trees should be changed on a chassis by chassis basis, so you can have some quirks for each chassis.. like maybe dragons and qds being the only heavy chassis that have access to speed tweak, while the others focus more on cooling, convergence, and firing rates.

[Orzorn]

Monky, on 24 August 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

I think this is pretty strong evidence that tuning based on 'quirks' is EXTREMELY limited in what advantages it can provide and that turning speed/engine size are the most useful factors in adjusting a mech's viability.

I'm somewhat of the opinion that torso twist speeds should not be locked to engine sizes, rather, they should be static such that it makes it easier to balance the mechs and also assaults won't be torso twisting at the rather high rates that we see currently.

[Solis Obscuri]

The bonuses help a bit, but I think linking turn rate and acceleration/deceleration to chassis size rather that just engine size, would give mediums a better means to distinguish themselves on the battlefield (without encroaching on lights).

[Jalik]

In my eyes, the hunchback tweaks were a nice improvement. I own a 4H, 4SP and 4P and all of them live longer now. Just because of the added maneuverability. Gameplay is much much better now!

[Orzorn]

Solis Obscuri, on 27 August 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

The bonuses help a bit, but I think linking turn rate and acceleration/deceleration to chassis size rather that just engine size, would give mediums a better means to distinguish themselves on the battlefield (without encroaching on lights).

Not to mention it would allow much finer control over each chassis as their turn rate would not be slaved to their engine. You could have a mech that had a fast torso twist even though its max speed is 64 kp/h, or a mech with slow torso twist even though its max speed is 120 kp/h.

This would let Hunchbacks keep their AC/20s and a bit smaller engines while still having the same torso twist speed as any other Hunchback might. It also means assaults might be expected to only torso twist at a certain slower speed, meaning you can actually out maneuver them.

[Captain Katawa]

I play mediums exclusively and after the the patch I think they're moving a bit too good for a game that was suposed to be hardcore iloting stuff.

The whole buff thing was pretty much unneeded.

If there's something that needs a buff/rework/change_to_hitboxes it's an Awesome. Mediums were quite fine.

[BlackJackRaider]

The torso twisting and range bonuses are kind of nice on the mediums I've tested (cent, bj, and cicada), but the Blackjack REALLY needs a bigger engine, especially now that the Hunchback got one. Yes, it has jumpjets, but it's now about 7 kph slower than the centurions and hunchbacks. Coupled with the weight/armor differences, this means that no competent pilot in a HBK or CN should ever die to a BJ.

Please buff the engine rating on the Blackjack to at least 250 (both cent and hunchie get an extra 15 points of engine rating over what the formula says they should have, so it would be nice to give the BJ the same bonus). I personally would love to see the rating moved up to 255 (since I already own a 255xl), but even 250 (with 10 true dhs dissipating 2.0 instead of 1.4) would be a huge improvement.

Help the Blackjack! Reduce the scale on the Treb! (I think these are the two most rare mediums on the battlefield, because they both have such obvious weaknesses).

[Tiger 6]

I tried my max'ed out 4P last night - felt a little more nimble, but here is the problem:

One drop I found myself confronted by a Victor, "no problem" I thought, "I do 98kph and he's an assault - I can run away..."
So I tried. Ran half a grid square and looked back. He was right behind me, and in the process of smoking me like a cheap cigar...

Not sure what he had in that thing, but I have one with an XL375 that does 83.5 with speed tweak that handles like a bigger cent (see where I'm going here...?) Being 30 tons lighter and ~15kph faster I should be able to get away from that situation, but obviously I can't...

I can't quite put my finger on it, but somewhere late last year the game seemed to slow down - I'm guessing it was when the first couple of net code revisions came in? The Atlas doesn't feel slower, but my Jenner was almost undriveable thru Frozen City at max speed - the best way I can describe it is I used to do 150 miles per hour, but now I only do 150 kilometres per hour, the numbers are the same but the speeds aren't, and more importantly the relative speeds between different classes feel much closer than they did.

I was almost always in my 4G(f) back in Closed Beta. It was great for running thru the middle of a brawl and picking away at damaged mechs, but now it feels sluggish and I have to be more careful about moving in - even tho I used to do 64kph with 225 engine in CB, and now I'm doing 80kph with 250 engine!

As somebody noted earlier in the thread - if I make a bad turn, or get hung up on a building, or suddenly stop dead while trying to get up a slope under the new movement code, the mediums simply do not have enough armour to survive the incoming barrage. Against a competitive team, any medium not carrying PPC's will probably not even get close enough to fire its weapons under the current meta.

The acceleration and agility buffs proposed earlier in this thread should help the mediums shine once the brawl in progress, but they have to get there first. All of the current maps are open enough that a well positioned team can force an enemy to cross open ground to attack them, where their high alpha platforms like STK's, HGN's and CTF's can soften up or destroy mediums before they are able to get in close enough to use their mobility to swarm them. A simple speed increase across the board will just break the light mech class, and us CB vets have already seen enough of the 400XL engined Hunchback 4P in action...

Nerfing PPC's and ER Large Lasers back to where they were in CB (i.e useless) isn't the answer, and I doubt the proposed Gauss Rifle tweak will seriously impact the good players. We need to be able to pick our mechs to suit the map (hopefully coming with UI 2.0 *cough*), and have maps that suit smaller, faster moving mechs. Terra Therma might be a step in the right direction if PGI can back off the slope penalty for mediums and lights, and fix the sticky buildings - its a large map with limited sight lines and terrain that favours flanking slower mechs.

Edited by Tiger 6, 28 August 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[nanoreaper]

just my thoughts but I would like to see an xp bonus for support action in medium mechs and mech that natively have a NARC beacon get more bonuses for using it.

[Felio]

It's a start, but they need more armor. You screwed up the scaling and it can't be fixed, so you need to make them more survivable in some other way.

[Jarl Dane]

Alright.
I have noticed a slight difference in my medium mech handling and it is NICE. I appreciate it!
But it isn't enough.

I run an HBK-SP. Right now there is a Quickdraw that can have the same weapon load-out at me (but more!), who can move faster than me, who has more armor than me, who doesn't have an exposed SideTorso(Hunch) like me and who can jump jet.

The ONLY thing (atm) I have over him is my agility. And frankly that just isn't enough. He can make up for that with his increased jumping, speed, weapons and armor.

I think there is a pretty strong consensus here that increased acceleration would help and I agree. Many times I turn a corner and I see a bunch of 'Mechs coming at me hard..I take a lot of damage getting back the way I came.. If i could be quicker it would give me a better edge there. Also as I avoid enemies..diving in out of cover and behind terrain features..greater acceleration would also be a welcome asset. Working hand-in-hand with my superior agility.

Maybe other things brought up here could work too. Maybe making the Hunch and shield arm more durable - damage reduction buffs or something.

Here is me:

[Elizander]

I'm liking the centurion changes. Makes it easier for me to shield-arm/snap shot.

Haven't played my hunchbacks yet though!

[jollyrancher1]

I like the idea of increasing the medium mechs acceleration and deceleration speed. Mediums are the reinforcement mech. When the lights start a light battle 800m away over some hills and need help, thats where mediums come in with firepower, when an assault needs help on the front lines, thats where a medium comes in with its has speed to reinforce. Medium mechs are all about reacting to the current battlefield and filling in the gaps.

[MavRCK]

Great changes. Garth wanted light maneuverability changes too..

You could make modules with 10% turn speed or 10% torso twist speed or 5% increase up/down twist or 10% acceleration etc etc etc which would allow for even greater customization - but not ridiculous GXP costs, try 5000GXP per module

Edited by MavRCK, 28 August 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Orzorn, on 27 August 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Not to mention it would allow much finer control over each chassis as their turn rate would not be slaved to their engine. You could have a mech that had a fast torso twist even though its max speed is 64 kp/h, or a mech with slow torso twist even though its max speed is 120 kp/h.

This would let Hunchbacks keep their AC/20s and a bit smaller engines while still having the same torso twist speed as any other Hunchback might. It also means assaults might be expected to only torso twist at a certain slower speed, meaning you can actually out maneuver them.

Yep, and well said Orzorn - glad to see you are still here as another founder caught between the heady rush of early beta and whatever "silent majority" MWO is hoping to appeal to these days - gods know it;s not us old dogs.

[Orzorn]

Solis Obscuri, on 29 August 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

Yep, and well said Orzorn - glad to see you are still here as another founder caught between the heady rush of early beta and whatever "silent majority" MWO is hoping to appeal to these days - gods know it;s not us old dogs.

Heh, PGI isn't lucky enough to be rid of my grumpy butt just yet.