151 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

What I think a lot of people are missing is that, 3PV is having known bugs. You are able to see around and over items you aren't intended to by the design attempts of the mechanic. The camera is suppose to hug the shoulders of your mech the closer to an object you go. It's suppose to limit the ability of seeing over things or around thing that you can't in 1pv by sensing that you are near such an object and the camera is suppose to lower down farther into the field.

However, the intended feature is not working completely as intended at this time (from how I understand it). However, one of the trade offs of 3pv over 1pv is the minimap. So, I think that the route problem isn't 3pv itself and how its being used, but lies somewhere else in the 3pv mechanic.

My thoughts on what the route problems are with 3PV:
- Camera is not hugging shoulders like it is suppose to when you are near an object.
- Ease and speed of which one can change between visual modes.
- It is being used as a "scout" camera, and then people are bouncing (quickly) into 1pv for the real fighting most times.

To solve these problems:
- Fix the object detection system so it really does hug closer to your mech when you step near a cockpit obstructing object, reducing visual field and prevent you from peeking over the object with the camera.
- Reduce view changing speeds to make it take longer, or make it so you have to jump to an option menu to change similar to Throttle decay. This would make it so either you play fully 3pv, or you play fully 1pv, for the most part.
- Prevent the camera from being a scout camera in some other manner.

I agree with the immersion crowd and see the advantages of 3pv over 1pv, but I also want people to see the disadvantages of each point of view as well. Some people say "Yeah, but pressing B makes you able to quickly see the minimap anyway" whenever that is mentioned. Don't know about you, but it takes me a moment to find where I am on the map, and while this is the case I can not see anything else on my screen besides the map. Then, once I find myself, sometimes it takes me a while to orient the map to my facing and to see where my team is. All this is provided in an easier to view minimap in 1pv.

I see it as, 3PV helps an individual player, and 1PV helps a player stay aware of their team. The ability to change between the two views as readily and as quickly as we can is what really and truly is the problem (from my perspective). This results in people gaining the "solo advantage" of 3PV when needed, and yet remain "a team aware player" with 1PV, gaining the best of two worlds.

What we need here are suggestions we can present to PGI to solve some of these problems between 1pv and 3pv. Demanding changes or the removal of the system will be given the same consideration as ECM did back in it's day. Let them gather data, and let us provide good feedback. They can tune it if we don't at least give it a worthy try.

[Tesunie]

Sorry if post is messed up and out of data. Was writing this last night when I lost power. And I just realized that the forums actually did save it this time! However... some of my points had to be rewritten again... so it may have some mistakes. Sorry. Still, for having thought I lost the whole post... not bad?

Anyway... here was some thoughts I had yesterday, that I tried to fill in today.

Quote

Monky, on 25 August 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

I think that since this very problem is being reported on by people with wide field of view, it isn't unreasonable that a 3 monitor setup person could see this as an unfair advantage. People with 3 monitor setups are no less likely to want a sim-like game out of their MWO experience than anyone else. Additionally, of the people who have 3 monitor setups, how many of them bought them solely for MWO, and of that group, how many bought them solely for MWO to exploit 3PV's extra viewing range? My guess is a number near zero, due to the sheer probability of it. I don't think their money is wasted because you still get a cool view of your cockpit and great detail.

One alternative to what we're talking about - is we could put the tab screen on the left monitor (the score card essentially) which is already accessible at the push of a button and maybe something on the right monitor which is one of the features highly talked about for multi monitor support - something like allowing the battlegrid to be open on the right monitor, I think that would be a little overpowered, but a higher resolution view of the minimap might be entirely viable. In this case it would still be the collapsed near-area view I recommended earlier just at a higher resolution so that details like terrain can be made out more clearly.

I'm just going into their possible perspective. I think most people only own a single monitor computer, so most everything should be geared for a single monitor. However, people with better graphic cards/processors/computers are already complaining that lower quality settings "provides too much of an edge to lower spec computers". I'm not joking either. I've seen threads here or there about it! So, if people are complaining that their "more money" computer can't give them any advantages (if not give them less at max graphics settings), what do you think people will do when their multi-monitor system provides no bonuses either?

As for placing a permanent TAB screen and Minimap (battle grid) on each respective monitor I think would be fair. They don't gain any real obvious advantages over a single monitor besides gaining more data faster and easier. A Single monitor set up can press TAB to gain the same data, and also B for the minimap. Might make for a more balanced play than the current version of multi-screen setups. Could be worth checking into...

[Mark of Caine]

Easiest fix is to scrap 3pv altogether and never discuss it again.

[Fishbrane]

Caine2112, on 26 August 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Easiest fix is to scrap 3pv altogether and never discuss it again.

No no! There are some children out there with stolen lunch money who might start playing this game. They're going to need 3pv to learn the ropes.

PGI wants that lunch money!

[Tesunie]

Caine2112, on 26 August 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Easiest fix is to scrap 3pv altogether and never discuss it again.

Or, instead of fighting against what is already here and is being told to us will stay, we can try to come up with ideas on how to improve the system to make it acceptable to PGI and ourselves.

Nope. Gonna be a little baby about it and throw a tantrum. How well did that work for you as a little kid? Doesn't work so well in the adult world.

Also, the other MW games had 3pv options. Why not this one too?

So, instead of whining about what isn't going to be removed (just like ECM, Artemis, UAC5 jam, etc), why not try to make suggestions on what is here to stay and make it better? Several good suggestions are coming up in this thread. Of course, before the "remove it neow or I no play" people started showing up.

What did my parents tell me? Oh yeah. If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all.
You have nothing to add to this topic? Then don't say anything at all.

[Fishbrane]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Edited by Atomicoxen, 27 August 2013 - 04:51 AM.

[Tesunie]

Atomicoxen, on 27 August 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

But insulting people get ignored.

[Orzorn]

Tesunie, on 27 August 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

But insulting people get ignored.

You called the other poster a little baby...

The other poster didn't even mention a particular person or group, only a feature.

You might want to reflect a bit on yourself.

Edited by Orzorn, 27 August 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Tesunie]

Orzorn, on 27 August 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

You called the other poster a little baby...

The other poster didn't even mention a particular person or group, only a feature.

You might want to reflect a bit on yourself.

I called him a baby for throwing a temper tantrum to try and get his way. I don't mind debating, but crying and saying "I'm leaving and I wants all my (donated) moneys back" isn't going to solve anything. Be productive. Give suggestions or explain why something is bad. Don't just say it's bad and make threats. (Refer to official 3PV thread and read just the first page.)

I shall admit, I probably could have been nicer about it. But I've been hearing these statements so much for so long, I guess I got a little careless and snapped. So, yeah. Sorry. I'm human. (Or I'm a computer program that's trying to be cleaver... hum...)

[Ravensshadow]

Tesunie, on 26 August 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Or, instead of fighting against what is already here and is being told to us will stay, we can try to come up with ideas on how to improve the system to make it acceptable to PGI and ourselves.

Nope. Gonna be a little baby about it and throw a tantrum. How well did that work for you as a little kid? Doesn't work so well in the adult world.

Also, the other MW games had 3pv options. Why not this one too?

So, instead of whining about what isn't going to be removed (just like ECM, Artemis, UAC5 jam, etc), why not try to make suggestions on what is here to stay and make it better? Several good suggestions are coming up in this thread. Of course, before the "remove it neow or I no play" people started showing up.

What did my parents tell me? Oh yeah. If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all.
You have nothing to add to this topic? Then don't say anything at all.

Insulting those of us who have reported exploits and the abuses of 3pv is not going towards making us silent. It only shows that the ones supporting 3pv are being unreasonable. AGAIN i hae only seen one post stateing turn off 3pv completely. ALL WE WANT IS FOR THEM TO KEEP THEIR WORD AND HAVE HARDCORE MODE AVAILABLE.

Giving up for and not holding them accountable for thier word is a foolish statement. We want hardcore move available and we want it now. Then if further testing of 3pv is needed all they need to do is ask the communtiy and i am sure there will be those more than happy to continue showing more and more ways 3pv is being exploited.

[Ravensshadow]

Tesunie, on 26 August 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Or, instead of fighting against what is already here and is being told to us will stay, we can try to come up with ideas on how to improve the system to make it acceptable to PGI and ourselves.

Nope. Gonna be a little baby about it and throw a tantrum. How well did that work for you as a little kid? Doesn't work so well in the adult world.

Also, the other MW games had 3pv options. Why not this one too?

So, instead of whining about what isn't going to be removed (just like ECM, Artemis, UAC5 jam, etc), why not try to make suggestions on what is here to stay and make it better? Several good suggestions are coming up in this thread. Of course, before the "remove it neow or I no play" people started showing up.

What did my parents tell me? Oh yeah. If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all.
You have nothing to add to this topic? Then don't say anything at all.

Slinging direct insults like little baby at other forum posters is unacceptable. I highy reccomend forum users report this poster.

[Ravensshadow]

Rippthrough, on 23 August 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Doesn't matter, all the 9 year olds will have rage quit over not being able to kill that blinking drone thing they keep shooting at.

Directing insulting other players and posters is unnaccaptable.

[Ravensshadow]

Tennex, on 23 August 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

lol because it doesn't happen randomly? its not an unintended occurrence. if thats what you mean. doesn't take guessing to see that it happens consistently 0-20m.

The only intended feature to 3pv was to make the game easier to new players. Everything else is an exploit. Unless you saying spotting in 3pv jumping up and switch to 1pv so you can accurately snipe someone then dropping our of sight is an "intended feature".

[Tesunie]

Ravensshadow, on 27 August 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Insulting those of us who have reported exploits and the abuses of 3pv is not going towards making us silent. It only shows that the ones supporting 3pv are being unreasonable. AGAIN i hae only seen one post stateing turn off 3pv completely. ALL WE WANT IS FOR THEM TO KEEP THEIR WORD AND HAVE HARDCORE MODE AVAILABLE.

Giving up for and not holding them accountable for thier word is a foolish statement. We want hardcore move available and we want it now. Then if further testing of 3pv is needed all they need to do is ask the communtiy and i am sure there will be those more than happy to continue showing more and more ways 3pv is being exploited.

Asking for a 1pv only game mode is an acceptable suggestion. Demanding 3pv be removed from the game really kinda isn't. Demanding it be removed from the game or they are going to demand refunds/quit the game/sue them is kinda on the not so reasonable side.

It is basically here to stay, so if it's here to stay, then what can we suggest/change/do to make it viable and useful but still reduce the number of complaints and possible exploits on the game?

Ravensshadow, on 27 August 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Slinging direct insults like little baby at other forum posters is unacceptable. I highy reccomend forum users report this poster.

Read post of mine below. Yes, I snapped. Sorry.

Tesunie, on 27 August 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I called him a baby for throwing a temper tantrum to try and get his way. I don't mind debating, but crying and saying "I'm leaving and I wants all my (donated) moneys back" isn't going to solve anything. Be productive. Give suggestions or explain why something is bad. Don't just say it's bad and make threats. (Refer to official 3PV thread and read just the first page.)

I shall admit, I probably could have been nicer about it. But I've been hearing these statements so much for so long, I guess I got a little careless and snapped. So, yeah. Sorry. I'm human. (Or I'm a computer program that's trying to be cleaver... hum...)

So, once more, sorry. If it helps any, I can send the person a personal message saying I'm sorry, but I hope he continues to read. I snapped at someone I shouldn't have. My bad.

[Ravensshadow]

Tesunie, on 24 August 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

If I may add in my two c-bills worth...

Though I agree that 3pv can provide benefits along line of sight and personal visual situational awareness, I find that by having a lack of minimap and sensors helps to balance the scales. You get to see more around you, but you can't see where your team is, what they are doing, and any quick references on where things they are targeting are.

Basically, 3pv is great as a solo player worried only about their own selves. 1pv doesn't provide such benefits to oneself visually, but provides far more information to the player to help promote and encourage team play. And as anyone will tell you, team play almost always trumps solo play.

(PS: Also, everyone can see your little blinky camera floating above that building, so a competent player using 1pv only could see the camera, know where you are, and then start to run around and flank you. Sure you saw them approach, but then you also saw them take a different route. Without Sensors, you might not notice people when they flank you. This is by no means saying 3pv doesn't provide some benefits, but I'm just saying that there are also benefits for being in 1pv as well.)

To fully utilize 3pv you need to switch back and forth between views..... like a true exploiter.

Tesunie, on 24 August 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Reason? We use reason on the forums? And I brought my gas can and matches too... for nothing! I thought that was what we did to ideas on the forums? My bad.

I try to give a well thought advise with supporting ideas and stuff. Can't say I'm always right, but a second point of view never hurts.

So far, I agree with you about the advantages of 3pv. I feel people don't focus on the disadvantages of 3pv enough though to be honest. But, I think the problem lies in how quick and easily you can change between the two view modes. You can go from watchful sentry (3pv) to combat accurate and team aware mechwarrior (1pv), with too much ease and too fast.

Though I agree with your points so far, I honestly don't think it gives people that much of an advantage, especially once they finish clearing out the bugs and stuff. If it does as they say they want it to, it should hug your mech closer when terrain is nearby, to keep one from looking over it. Right now, it looks like this feature isn't working up to par and needs more adjustment.

any disadvantage is quickly dispelled but switching back and forth between modes.

[Tesunie]

Ravensshadow, on 27 August 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

To fully utilize 3pv you need to switch back and forth between views..... like a true exploiter.


any disadvantage is quickly dispelled but switching back and forth between modes.

So, you are saying the route of the problem lies not with 3pv, but with the ability to quickly and easily change between views, providing the max benefits of each view, while reducing the negative effects of each specific view.

If that is the real problem, then maybe as a forum group we should suggest that the "easy switch between views (F4)" could be removed, or the process of moving from 3pv to 1pv happen at a much slower rate. That might be a possible solution for PGI to look into.

We've also come up with several other ideas in this thread as well. Some intend to limit the "extra" information by certain ways. There are lots of possible solutions and suggestions to be made.

[Chronojam]

Tesunie, on 27 August 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

But insulting people get ignored.

Tesunie, on 27 August 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

I called him a baby for throwing a temper tantrum to try and get his way. I don't mind debating, but crying blah blah blah

I'd wager that calling people "babies," saying they're "throwing temper tantrums," and are "crying" could be taken as insults. Don't be a shitlord.

[Ravensshadow]

Tesunie, on 27 August 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Asking for a 1pv only game mode is an acceptable suggestion. Demanding 3pv be removed from the game really kinda isn't. Demanding it be removed from the game or they are going to demand refunds/quit the game/sue them is kinda on the not so reasonable side.

It is basically here to stay, so if it's here to stay, then what can we suggest/change/do to make it viable and useful but still reduce the number of complaints and possible exploits on the game?



Read post of mine below. Yes, I snapped. Sorry.


So, once more, sorry. If it helps any, I can send the person a personal message saying I'm sorry, but I hope he continues to read. I snapped at someone I shouldn't have. My bad.

Very big of you.... I am impressed..... (to be clear not sarccastic)

[Tesunie]

Chronojam, on 27 August 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

I'd wager that calling people "babies," saying they're "throwing temper tantrums," and are "crying" could be taken as insults. Don't be a shitlord.

Well, what else do you call someone complaining and making demands that are either unreasonable and/or already been told wont happen? I was just calling it as I saw it. I will admit I should have been nicer about it and I snapped at someone that I shouldn't have. I've just been reading too many similar comments with threats of demanding money back.

Ravensshadow, on 27 August 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Very big of you.... I am impressed..... (to be clear not sarccastic)

I'm not above apologizing when an apology is due. I make mistakes and is human. As I said, I snapped after reading so many posts about how 3PV should be removed and it wasn't even out for a day. Gets kinda frustrating when you finally are in a thread trying to come up with ideas about something and been doing great, and then someone who seems from that crowd come in.

I vented my frustrations on someone who did not deserve it. It was my bad. Totally admitting it. (Doesn't make what I say any less true about giving suggestions and input, but I definitely could have said it in a much less insulting way.) We all make mistakes. That was mine.

[Rippthrough]

Ravensshadow, on 27 August 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Directing insulting other players and posters is unnaccaptable.

Can I have what you're smoking?
Where was there anything in that quote that was insulting to anyone?

How about winding your neck in because trolling/irritating other posters isn't acceptable either.

Edited by Rippthrough, 27 August 2013 - 11:44 AM.