77 replies to this topic

[Veebora]

I like 3PV and I am happy PGI have decided to put it in.

I always wondered the meaning of the colors of my Mech if I couldn't see it myself.

Now I press F4, look how awesome is my mech, F4 again and continue playing.

Now what, I will be burned because I like yellow and you like red, or one religion or another.

Stop playing as a frustrated child.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Khobai, on 22 August 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

Ironically, you are advocating the importance of honesty, after PGI lied to us.

They didn't lie to you. Check Section 12 Subsection 4 & 5 of the Terms of Service you agreed to.

4. notwithstanding any Payment, you hereby acknowledge your understanding of the nature of beta testing, and understand that we do no guarantee that your access to any Beta Test will be uninterrupted, or that the Beta Test will continue to be available for any period of time;

5. we reserve the right to limit access to all or part of any Beta Test at any time, and for any duration of time, including indefinitely, if in our sole discretion, we determine that such limitation is necessary, advisable or expedient to the development or testing of the IGP Offerings which are the subject of the Beta Test;

However, calling them liars is a breach of the Code of Conduct for the forums.

This category includes both clear and masked language and/or links to websites containing such language or images which:

• Insultingly refer to other characters, players, Piranha Games Inc. employees, or groups of people
  
• Result in ongoing harassment to other characters, players, Piranha Games Inc. employees, or groups of people

With the amount of harassment and insults given to PGI, all of the people that did it earned a ban. I hope that PGI does that.

[Screech]

James The Fox Dixon, on 22 August 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

They didn't lie to you. They told you upfront that aspects of the beta test would be withheld from you and you agreed to it.

Here are the facts.

• Yes we are currently working on a 3rd person option for MWO.
  
• There is no ETA for when 3rd person will be available
  
• Players will never be forced to use or play against other players using 3rd person.

Yep no lie there. I am not surprised you can't tell what a lie is, maybe you can look it up on the internet.

And this doesn't even go into the fact that this lie was told after the initial lie of there being no 3PV at all was uncovered. But thankfully this is just a game so the damage is minimal.

[Khobai]

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They didn't lie to you.

Actually they did lie. And nothing in the ToS changes that.

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However, calling them liars is a breach of the Code of Conduct for the forums.

No its not. Because its not insulting. Its simply the truth.

Admittedly, some players have gone overboard, and their feedback hasnt been what I consider constructive, but one could argue that players getting upset over being blatantly lied to is a natural response.

[Toong]

Geaux Tiger, on 22 August 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Actually no. PGI needs to respect US first. Without us there is no PGI/MWO, not the other way around. PGI doesn't respect its customers then the customers go find other games and dev studios that do respect them. Simple fact.

Wrong. Respect should always be shown, regardless of whether or not you feel the other party is respecting you. Respect is not some reward to be handed out conditionally. If someone isn't feeling respected and wants to go find another game to play, that's their decision to make. But that is no excuse to be disrespectful.

Respect isn't something you have to receive in order to give.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Screech, on 22 August 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Here are the facts.

• Yes we are currently working on a 3rd person option for MWO.
  
• There is no ETA for when 3rd person will be available
  
• Players will never be forced to use or play against other players using 3rd person.

Yep no lie there. I am not surprised you can't tell what a lie is, maybe you can look it up on the internet.

And this doesn't even go into the fact that this lie was told after the initial lie of there being no 3PV at all was uncovered. But thankfully this is just a game so the damage is minimal.

Khobai, on 22 August 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Actually they did lie. And nothing in the ToS changes that.

No its not. Because its not insulting. Its simply the truth.

Admittedly, some players have gone overboard, and their feedback hasnt been what I consider constructive, but one could argue that players getting upset over being blatantly lied to is a natural response.

I direct you to the Command Chair post that states that they did not lie.

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After designing, developing, and testing the MWO’s 3PV, we quickly realised that 3PV offered no significant advantage over 1PV. In fact we found each mode had pros and cons that played well with each other. This revelation changed our initial 3PV plans and we postponed Hardcore mode (separate queues for 1PV and 3PV), in favor of rethinking the idea and offering up a different solution that also addressed a few more community wish list items.

It's been postponed on the queues. Even if a feature that was being worked on was dropped they still didn't lie as the Terms of Service states this.

Again, they did not lie. Calling them liars when in fact they did not lie is a breach of etiquette and of the Code of Conduct.

[Khobai]

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I direct you to the Command Chair post that states that they did not lie.

Of course they arnt going to admit they lied to their customers. Dont be dense.

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It's been postponed on the queues.

It doesnt matter if its been postponed or not. They said that 1PV players would never have to play against 3PV players. That is a lie. No amount of sugar coating is going to change that.

[Mavqie]

i can understand some of the anger some players feel

i personally have no issues with anything which has happened recently in game which is my oppinion and obviously everyone is entitled to an oppinion

but instead of the rage and downright abuse some people are giving over a video game, i mean come on some have even used death threats which is just borderline rediculous (those people need to get out more)

i honestly think if its done in a polite enough manner pgi might actually read the comments. If i was a pgi employee tasked with looking at comments from the community i would just ignore most of what is said on these forums as of late and only look at the comments made by people who want to help and give constructive arguments


i.e you put in 3rd person i ******* hate pgi you lying ******** etc etc is one of the things i expect they are just not even bothering to look at

[James The Fox Dixon]

Khobai, on 22 August 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Of course they arnt going to admit they lied to their customers. Dont be dense.

It doesnt matter if its been postponed or not. They said that 1PV players would never have to play against 3PV players. That is a lie. No amount of sugar coating is going to change that.

There we go with you disrespecting me and lacking etiquette. I am going to pull a PGI and ignore you from now on.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 22 August 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Toong]

James The Fox Dixon, on 22 August 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

I direct you to the Command Chair post that states that they did not lie.

It's been postponed on the queues. Even if a feature that was being worked on was dropped they still didn't lie as the Terms of Service states this.

Again, they did not lie. Calling them liars when in fact they did not lie is a breach of etiquette and of the Code of Conduct.

Here's another way of looking at it. We're not investors, we're consumers. If we were investing in PGI based on their vision for the game, and they change that vision on a whim, yeah that'd be kinda crappy. But PGI owes us nothing (in a monetary sense). Changing one's mind is not lying, it's just changing one's mind, and they have data that backs their decision.

[C E Dwyer]

I'm fully aware of what etiquette is,

when a person treats me with respect they get it returned

when my boss treats me badly I call him an ***** (yes really)

when I'm sold one thing and get another I call them..well you get the idea

[Khobai]

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There we go with you disrespecting me and lacking etiquette. I am going to pull a PGI and ignore you from now on.

Again its not disrespect. Its simply the truth. Believing everything PGI tells you without questioning it IS being dense.

Quote

Here's another way of looking at it. We're not investors, we're consumers. If we were investing in PGI based on their vision for the game, and they change that vision on a whim, yeah that'd be kinda crappy. But PGI owes us nothing (in a monetary sense). Changing one's mind is not lying, it's just changing one's mind, and they have data that backs their decision.

Have you not heard the saying "the customer is always right?"

[Bloody Moon]

James The Fox Dixon, on 22 August 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

It needs to be sent to the community first. PGI respects those that give constructive and honest feedback done in a classy manner. Back in closed beta, the developers were very active on the forums because the player base practiced etiquette and respected the developers. Once open beta hit, we had an influx of players that just raged about everything and anything while not adhering to etiquette. Is it any wonder that PGI does not get involved on their own forums after the repeated verbal abuse they've had to endure?

PGI did respect that way back that is true. Nowadays we only get insulting replies from Paul and a couple of others.

But you are right about the community, many people on both sides of the argument concerning 3PV carry an attitude which is not what i'd call acceptable.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Khobai, on 22 August 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Again its not disrespect. Its simply the truth. Believing everything PGI tells you without questioning it IS being dense.

Have you not heard the saying "the customer is always right?"

You insulted me by calling me dense. That is being disrespectful.

Here's an article that blows your "the customer is always right" belief out of the water.

http://positiveshari...stomer-service/

[LCRacerX]

Lying is a strong word here.

Lying implies there was intent to deceive when they said that players wouldn't have to use the feature or play against those that are.

That certainly could've been & probably was the true intent at the time. The reasoning & circumstances behind that statement then changed & the product evolved.

It's a fact of life. Circumstance change. Situations evolve. In software this means features change or don't make the cut.

Adapt or move on. Give your opinion about it if you feel it's necessary, but do it respectfully. Feedback is always appreciated, but whining is typically ignored.

Khobai, on 22 August 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Have you not heard the saying "the customer is always right?"

& this statement is false.

Here's a good explanation:

[Khobai]

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You insulted me by calling me dense. That is being disrespectful.

Its not meant to be insulting or disrespectful. Simply informative. Believing everything someone tells you without questioning the motives behind it is sheepish behavior.

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Here's an article that blows your "the customer is always right" belief out of the water.

Not really. Considering about 90% of the players were against 3PV to begin with. It was never just a small vocal minority. The saying may not apply to one or two irate customers, but it certainly applies in situations where 90% of your customers are vehemently opposed to something. And honestly you can find an article on the internet to prove or disprove any point you want to make. I could easily find articles that prove what im saying is right. The difference is I dont need to do that because my arguments arnt full of holes.

Spoiler

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Lying implies there was intent to deceive

Nope. Lying with intent to deceive is simply worse than lying without intent to deceive. In the same way that premeditated murder is worse than non-premeditated murder. PGI lied. The extent to which PGI lied has been grossly exaggerated, but saying they didnt lie, is simply a denial of the facts.

Edited by Khobai, 22 August 2013 - 11:32 AM.

[Screech]

James The Fox Dixon, on 22 August 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Again, they did not lie. Calling them liars when in fact they did not lie is a breach of etiquette and of the Code of Conduct.

Classic.

At least PGI agrees with me, from Russ Bullock today:

So I assume the community is much more upset about the broken promise then how they have seen people using third person in matches.

[Boarchild]

Khobai, on 22 August 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

They said that 1PV players would never have to play against 3PV players. That is a lie. No amount of sugar coating is going to change that.

If you are referring to the line;

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Players will never be forced to use or play against other players using 3rd person.

They didn't.. They just stated you will never be forced to use 3rd person view. Neither will you be forced to use 3rd person view when playing against other players.
I don't get this whole lying thing. I never will. It's starting to look like world of tanks.

The whole lying thing aside, what really bothers me is that this is turning out to WoT, with the ingame language use. As soon as the first (most likely very young) person dies, it's not usunusual to get the "Another noob team! FU!". This is where the whole respect thing comes in for me. You win some, you lose some. Learn what you can from the times you lose, and apply it to your next match. All players need to show respect both for the game, and for eachother.

[Henchman 24]

Screech, on 22 August 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

Classic.

At least PGI agrees with me, from Russ Bullock today:

So I assume the community is much more upset about the broken promise then how they have seen people using third person in matches.

So James, how does this snarky assumption fit in with Emily's teachings? It also wouldn't be the first response I've seen with this tone.

Not that we all haven't seen etiquette used negatively in one way or another in the past. Etiquette only works when it works both ways, otherwise it's used to conceal the same half-truths, eluded notions, and suggested(but not stated) ideas that, in particular, is lacking the fortitude to just say plainly.

Quite frankly, I have to agree with you that things get a little too heated, and people act childishly at times. However, I disagree that it's "the community" in whole as you seem to want to insinuate.

I wouldn't walk into someone's home and expect them to tolerate insults that are suddenly or unexpectedly flung at them, that is, right up until deception, obfuscation, or incompetence come into play(they are taking money on promises after all). All bets are off after that, and you reap what you sow.

Acting civilized has two purposes in real life.

1. actually being civilized.
2. using the claim of civility to hide dubious actions.

I put to you sir, your flamebait worked.

[Khobai]

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As soon as the first (most likely very young) person dies, it's not usunusual to get the "Another noob team! FU!".

Which again is a completely justified response. People like to win. Nobody likes to have their chances of winning ruined by someone else.

There is a reason why other games have respawns. Adding respawn is not some arbitrary decision by the game developers. Respawns are an intentional inclusion in most games because they prevent low-skill players, disconnectors, and afkers from ruining the game.

PGI has invoked that behavior by not following the standard conventions of other games. Just like PGI invoked the behavior regarding 3PV by going against the wishes of the community and implementing a "feature" that
most players didn't even want in the first place. This sheer amount of backlash was inevitable.