73 replies to this topic

[VagGR]

very good post...

[Jacmac]

Look PGI ain't stupid, they know why most players hate 3PV. But they are desperate too. So to try and get World of Tank numbers of players, they'll try just about anything. Anyone remember Combat Upgrade in Star Wars Galaxies? PGI management apparently never heard of it.

[Uncleclint]

Awesome post, thank you very much MuonNeutrino.

[t Khrist]

Great read, you've said what we're all thinking in a clear and concise manner. Props for the making the drone Navi

[MuonNeutrino]

t Khrist, on 23 August 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Props for the making the drone Navi

It was *literally* the very first thought that popped into my head the first time I ever saw the drone. I'm just lucky it was still the beginning of the match and so stopping to laugh my rear off didn't cause any problems. That mental image has been rattling around my brain ever since 3pv was on the test server a few weeks ago, I'm just happy I found a good context to use it. At least I can get a good laugh out of the whole issue!

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 23 August 2013 - 08:19 AM.

[Frack the System]

Excellent work MuonNeutrino, this along with the numerous videos and pictures allready posted should help everyone understand the (bad) advantages 3PV offers !

[Desdain]

Jacmac, on 23 August 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Look PGI ain't stupid, they know why most players hate 3PV. But they are desperate too. So to try and get World of Tank numbers of players, they'll try just about anything. Anyone remember Combat Upgrade in Star Wars Galaxies? PGI management apparently never heard of it.

The NGE was the one that really killed it .

[warner2]

Great post, and I agree 100%.

[RedDragon]

Straight to the point, great post that deserves attention.
That's exactly the thing most people who say 3PV is not a big deal aren't getting.
They always say "It's no advantage, rather a disadvantage, you can't aim and there's a drone above you." But what they don't get is that players (first the good ones, later everyone) will use 3PV only when it provides them with a tactical advantage, as described in the OP.

[Sturmwind]

RedDragon, on 24 August 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Straight to the point, great post that deserves attention.
That's exactly the thing most people who say 3PV is not a big deal aren't getting.
They always say "It's no advantage, rather a disadvantage, you can't aim and there's a drone above you." But what they don't get is that players (first the good ones, later everyone) will use 3PV only when it provides them with a tactical advantage, as described in the OP.

Probably because a lot of PUGs don't seem to understand the principle of "tactic" or even "scouting".

@OP: Good post.

[RedDragon]

Sturmwind, on 24 August 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

Probably because a lot of PUGs don't seem to understand the principle of "tactic" or even "scouting".

@OP: Good post.

I don't think it's a problem with PUGs, rather one with short-sighted people who don't care to get a view of the whole problem before ranting. That includes some veteran- and team players as well, sadly.

Edit: Forwarded this to Garth. We need to get some attention on this.

Edited by RedDragon, 24 August 2013 - 05:08 AM.

[Zuesacoatl]

MuonNeutrino, on 22 August 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

One thing I have noticed during the ongoing debate over the introduction of third person view (henceforth '3pv') is that many people seem to be unaware of the *reasons* why I, and others, feel that 3pv will have a negative impact on game play and do not wish to participate in games where this view is an option.

Herein lies the problem. Some of us don't care. Unlike you guys, i will not claim I am part of a majority, but there is a group that cares only about having fun, not competition, not about people that feel to be competitive they have to exploit a game, just pure fun. You can stop playing for something you believe in, all well and good, some of us other players would welcome the lack of rage and/or whining on these forums. But to continue to force feed us this drivel of what YOU believe in is starting to get really annoying.

3pv is not going to drive new players away, people who whine and cry cause someone did not bring a basketball and instead brought a football, is going to drive the community and players away. I have been here since very early closed beta, and I loved these forums, but the past couple of months, with the "competitive" crowd coming out, I have begun to stay away. If you cared so much about the community as you and so many "competitive" players have stated, than stop being so dramatic, realize that your voice and your point of view is not the only ones, your play style is not the only way, and stop spreading the vitriol into every post you can find.

Ty, sorry for being so blunt, but it is time people stopped talking to the "competitive" crowd with soft filters on.

[DeadlyNerd]

Zuesacoatl, on 24 August 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

Herein lies the problem. Some of us don't care. Unlike you guys, i will not claim I am part of a majority, but there is a group that cares only about having fun, not competition, not about people that feel to be competitive they have to exploit a game, just pure fun.

So your idea of fun is getting steamrolled by those that exploited the game in order to have their own fun. I must say, that's some heavy reasoning right there.

[Zuesacoatl]

DeadlyNerd, on 24 August 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

So your idea of fun is getting steamrolled by those that exploited the game in order to have their own fun. I must say, that's some heavy reasoning right there.

Per the logic that has been spouted from your camp lately, it is competitive players, not your average joes, who will use this as a cheat. In my average joe matches, I have yet to see one person keep 3pv on. Most do not want to use it. So, my Elo rating is in the average area, and you guys are pointing the fingers at other "competitive" players using the exploit, and since we do not drop with the "gods" of MWO, we do not have to worry about it because those of us in the average ranks want just one thing, clean fun games, by your own admission, it is competitive players that wish to cheat and game the system.

[RedDragon]

Zuesacoatl, on 24 August 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Per the logic that has been spouted from your camp lately, it is competitive players, not your average joes, who will use this as a cheat. In my average joe matches, I have yet to see one person keep 3pv on. Most do not want to use it. So, my Elo rating is in the average area, and you guys are pointing the fingers at other "competitive" players using the exploit, and since we do not drop with the "gods" of MWO, we do not have to worry about it because those of us in the average ranks want just one thing, clean fun games, by your own admission, it is competitive players that wish to cheat and game the system.

I can see where you are coming from, but I fear that your stance may shift in some days/weeks.

Apart from this:

Quote

I have yet to see one person keep 3pv on

which is the whole point of the OP, I am pretty sure that more and more people will learn how to use 3PV to their advantage. Those guys that "cheat the system" are the same ones that use jump sniping and the current PPC+Gauss meta game. And this is prevalent in every ELO-bracket (maybe not at the absolute bottom...). People have fun when they win. So people want to win, no matter what. This has nothing to do with competitive gaming (sadly).

[Zuesacoatl]

RedDragon, on 24 August 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

I can see where you are coming from, but I fear that your stance may shift in some days/weeks.

Apart from this:

which is the whole point of the OP, I am pretty sure that more and more people will learn how to use 3PV to their advantage. Those guys that "cheat the system" are the same ones that use jump sniping and the current PPC+Gauss meta game. And this is prevalent in every ELO-bracket (maybe not at the absolute bottom...). People have fun when they win. So people want to win, no matter what. This has nothing to do with competitive gaming (sadly).

You are right, they will, though it is of very little advantage, I do pop sniping myself at times, depends on my mood, and 3pv is horrible for it, the jump targeting, the lack of being able to pinpoint your shots, it is just horrendous, sure it can be gamed to a point, but not to the extent that is being cried about on these forums. My previous post was just to point out a flaw in the current thinking, and general bad feelings towards puggers. I know that any system put in game will be exploitable, the difference is, in every style of play, some things will have more affect than others, in the upper reaches of mount Olympus MWO play, I am sure 3pv is very exploitable, just the fact of information gathering alone in a good team can tip the balance greatly, in the hands of a great team, well, if people dont get the idea, they are dumb. but most of us dont care about the gods, they do what they do, and we do our thing. sure, it can come down to earth and affect us, but not as much as you guys think it will.

I am not a top dog by any means. I run a clan, and drop in teams, but I love the pug drops, and dropping with family, and they are two very very different worlds..The difference is, I have learned to separate them.

[DeadlyNerd]

Zuesacoatl, on 24 August 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Per the logic that has been spouted from your camp lately, it is competitive players, not your average joes, who will use this as a cheat. In my average joe matches, I have yet to see one person keep 3pv on. Most do not want to use it. So, my Elo rating is in the average area, and you guys are pointing the fingers at other "competitive" players using the exploit, and since we do not drop with the "gods" of MWO, we do not have to worry about it because those of us in the average ranks want just one thing, clean fun games, by your own admission, it is competitive players that wish to cheat and game the system.

See, with the current matchmaker we're all playing together, were we average Joes or elite haxorz so your theory is still drowning. Oh and yes, the reason why you don't see 3pv being used is because you don't get a chance. Press F4, see what's going on, press F4 again. By the time your dead horse reflexes allow you to notice something unusual, the drone is gone.

[Zuesacoatl]

DeadlyNerd, on 24 August 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

See, with the current matchmaker we're all playing together, were we average Joes or elite haxorz so your theory is still drowning. Oh and yes, the reason why you don't see 3pv being used is because you don't get a chance. Press F4, see what's going on, press F4 again. By the time your dead horse reflexes allow you to notice something unusual, the drone is gone.

LAWL "You shot holes in my argument so I will begin to call you down"

Seems to be par for the course lately. No, we are not all playing together, cause I have yet to see some of the real top dogs in my elo level games. Not to mention, the real "competitive" players are playing in full 12v12 matches, I only see them when I drop in clan or open TS. Two very different worlds. But I will say I hope we do drop on opposite teams, this way i can practice on my dead horse reflexes.

[RedDragon]

Zuesacoatl, on 24 August 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

You are right, they will, though it is of very little advantage, I do pop sniping myself at times, depends on my mood, and 3pv is horrible for it, the jump targeting, the lack of being able to pinpoint your shots, it is just horrendous, sure it can be gamed to a point, but not to the extent that is being cried about on these forums.

That exactly is the point of the OP, please read it again, I think you didn't get the whole meaning of it. The problem is not jump sniping in 3PV, the problem is that you can observe your enemy without exposing yourself, wait for a good moment and then switch to 1PV and jump, without any drawbacks from 3PV.
I myself, although playing in a competitive team, enjoy playing the game "as it is meant to be". I'd love to have a stock-only mode. But we don't have this and 3PV will make a negative impact on the game, no matter in which ELO-bracket you play. And I can't imagine you like losing to someone who has an "unfair" advantage more than I do. I played MW4 strictly in 1PV only and I hated the game in the end because of it, because I "did my own thing", but the game itself gave me no chance to enjoy it that way.

[Zuesacoatl]

RedDragon, on 24 August 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

That exactly is the point of the OP, please read it again, I think you didn't get the whole meaning of it. The problem is not jump sniping in 3PV, the problem is that you can observe your enemy without exposing yourself, wait for a good moment and then switch to 1PV and jump, without any drawbacks from 3PV.
I myself, although playing in a competitive team, enjoy playing the game "as it is meant to be". I'd love to have a stock-only mode. But we don't have this and 3PV will make a negative impact on the game, no matter in which ELO-bracket you play. And I can't imagine you like losing to someone who has an "unfair" advantage more than I do. I played MW4 strictly in 1PV only and I hated the game in the end because of it, because I "did my own thing", but the game itself gave me no chance to enjoy it that way.

But again, you are missing the point, sure, ELO is brocken and people play with people they should not even think of talking to let alone piloting a mech against. But, in the average Joe brackets, the skill to use these exploits does not truly exist. Dont get me wrong, I love the puggies, but just the combination of lack of communication, team work, and overall team skills drives this exploit to a non-issue the lower you go. In my team games, yes, it is annoying, cause the logic that competitive players will cheat to win shines in team play. Some teams will do what ever they can to make up for lack of skill. But this is so different in pug matches. I have honestly yet to see you in a pug match Reddragon, nor have I seen Homelessbill, or koreanese or any of the other big names in pug drops because the elo keeps most of the gods of war above the commoners stomping grounds. It is not perfect, but it works well enough to keep those guys off average joes butt lol.

Your thought process is that everyone is good enough to exploit this like you see in full team matches, and when put to real world rules, that train of thought derails. I understand what happens in Olympus and the levels just below it, but the further down in levels, the more non issue it becomes. Hence why so many people, most dont even read patch notes, keep downloading the patches, send GLHFs and proceed to pour stompy mech cans of whooparse every day. I can understand the OP and your point of view, it is you guys who can not make the separation and see that not everyone can be like the top dogs and exploit a game function. I watch my brother play on his own, and he sucks lol, but even from his stance, it is different from the average joes drops.

tldr, The gods can exploit things far better than a commoner can. I understand the OP, but he needs to take a moment to step down and find a way to see it from the average players view and know that the further down you go, the less of an issue it becomes.

I hope that came out the way it was in my head, I am at the close of an 19 hour work day, so I am exhausted, Thank you Reddragon, at least I was able to talk with you, and not have to worry about being called down, or belittle cause I do not believe my skills rival the gods, and I disagree with them and their wannabe counter parts.