73 replies to this topic

[DeadlyNerd]

Zuesacoatl, on 24 August 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

LAWL "You shot holes in my argument so I will begin to call you down"

Seems to be par for the course lately. No, we are not all playing together, cause I have yet to see some of the real top dogs in my elo level games. Not to mention, the real "competitive" players are playing in full 12v12 matches, I only see them when I drop in clan or open TS. Two very different worlds. But I will say I hope we do drop on opposite teams, this way i can practice on my dead horse reflexes.

And how exactly do you know your Elo rating? The common sense, which you obviously are lacking, suggests that when a team gets steamrolled, the enemy had far better skills, as in your average joe team was playing against skilled(competitive, even though this simply doesn't exist in MWO) players.
Also, how would you, average joe, know which players are in 12v12 matches if you never played any, because you're an average joe.

I'm not creating holes in your arguments because they're already there.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 24 August 2013 - 06:18 AM.

[Zuesacoatl]

DeadlyNerd, on 24 August 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

And how exactly do you know your Elo rating? The common sense, which you obviously are lacking, suggests that when a team gets steamrolled, the enemy had far better skills, as in your average joe team was playing against skilled(competitive, even though this simply doesn't exist in MWO) players.
Also, how would you, average joe, know which players are in 12v12 matches if you never played any, because you're an average joe.

I'm not creating holes in your arguments because they're already there.

You really need to read posts from people you wish to degrade. I did state that I drop in team drops as a clan leader and in one of the open ts servers offered to the community. I have seen what the OP is talking about when it comes to top teams. I have seen real steam rolls. It is a very different world in team play, I am the first to admit it. How I know my elo, I don't, but I know my own skill, and as a solo dropper, I rate myself at average. I do not see the real top dogs in my matches, but I do see a lot of wannabes dropping with me. Again, I have yet to see HB, Koreanese, or some of the other big names in my solo drops, and though I wish it otherwise, I do not think i ever will. It is pretty easy to gauge where you rest in elo, as long as you look past ego, and take your initial observations about oneself down a couple notches to have a real assessments of ones skills.

[RedDragon]

Zuesacoatl, on 24 August 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

I hope that came out the way it was in my head, I am at the close of an 19 hour work day, so I am exhausted, Thank you Reddragon, at least I was able to talk with you, and not have to worry about being called down, or belittle cause I do not believe my skills rival the gods, and I disagree with them and their wannabe counter parts.

First of all – you should refrain from calling anyone "Gods of MWO", I have yet to see anyone who truly deserves such a title
Next: I guess you didn't see me because I really seldom play these days, although I played a lot of PUG and 4-mans a while back.
Well, I understand your point, but I don't think it can be a solution to say "It's no problem because it only tangents the players with higher ELO". Firstly because with the current matchmaker, everyone is pitted against everyone, so you will have to fight against people abusing 3PV. And then the game should be fair for all people, no matter what bracket they are playing in.
After all, a new player should not have to learn abusing 3PV because some day he wants to play in a 12 player team. But that is they way it will go. If you want to stay competitive, you'd have to master the art of abusing 3PV. And that's a horrible thought IMO.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

I think the OP's concern could best be addressed by locking-in the view selection at drop. If 3pv is selected in Options, and the player/lance/company launches, then the player is stuck with 3pv for the entirety of his/her 'life' in the match. Likewise for 1pv.

There are whole games out there (Assasin's Creed 1-4,000,000, Splinter Cell Everything, etc.) that take place entirely in 3pv. And there are others that take place entirely in 1pv. And sure, there ARE some that allow a player to switch between at will. I don't feel that MWO should be in that last category, and for the reasons that the OP stated very clearly and with EXCELLENT illustration.

Lock us in, and maybe even add a reminder icon to a player's interface, maybe next to the READY/LAUNCH button, to indicate 1pv or 3pv, so that one won't have much excuse to forget and negligently drop in the wrong view.

Spaseebs!

[Zuesacoatl]

RedDragon, on 24 August 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

First of all – you should refrain from calling anyone "Gods of MWO", I have yet to see anyone who truly deserves such a title
Next: I guess you didn't see me because I really seldom play these days, although I played a lot of PUG and 4-mans a while back.
Well, I understand your point, but I don't think it can be a solution to say "It's no problem because it only tangents the players with higher ELO". Firstly because with the current matchmaker, everyone is pitted against everyone, so you will have to fight against people abusing 3PV. And then the game should be fair for all people, no matter what bracket they are playing in.
After all, a new player should not have to learn abusing 3PV because some day he wants to play in a 12 player team. But that is they way it will go. If you want to stay competitive, you'd have to master the art of abusing 3PV. And that's a horrible thought IMO.

I do understand that it will trickle down sooner or later, but I have yet to play with anyone skilled enough in pugs to properly exploit 3pv pop tarting. Or any other exploit 3pv offers team games. Should this be adjusted and looked into, yes, I agree it should, is it as game breaking as so many town criers have called it to be. No, not where they are trying to pin the biggest offenses to be. In 12v12, yes, it is already being exploited, but in lower pug brawls, it is still not all that relevant...yet.

[grayson marik]

And there is an other point to consider why people are so angry:

Either the players wanting to play only in matches with 1stPV only are a small minority. In this case catering to them by providing a 1stPV queue would have been no hurt at all but would have made everyone happy to play as he/she likes it the most.

Or on the other hand:

The player portion, that does not want 3rdPV anywhere in their matches is NOT such a small minoritiy at all. In this case trying to force 3rdPV on them in their matches, is the worst buisiness decision ever made and should be corrected yesterday!

To sum it up: In both cases, the anger is more than justified and PGI should think about what to do next very careful but also put their findings to action very very fast!

I only pray those findings will be the right ones this time....

[Anais Opal]

Read the whole post.

Outstanding!

Many kudo's to the OP exactly what the community thought when it was announced and exactly what we got on implementation.

Community v PGI = 1 - 0

Nuff said

[Huge]

OP said it slow and used pictures for everyone too slow to 'get it' just by understanding the core concept of looking over ridges is unbalanced. He does outline a key point. This game used to be heavily influenced by the unknown. Having to risk going around that corner for information and getting a slow but lethal flank with one or two mechs on an exposed flank. Getting concentrated fire while the enemy scrambled to form up and meet them.

3PV gives so much free and riskless situational knowledge that this core element of big stompy robits is rendered largely defunct. Seismic did and DOES the same thing. Lets you know where the enemy is and organize a formation or retreat ahead of the coming storm without taking a lick of damage or risk. Combine the two and we get a very dull and boring game when it comes to positioning advantage and tactics.

[Helsbane]

I would like to table, for use by the community, the term '3peek' for use when using the drone to gain intel about what's over the hill in front of us.

Something that is named has far more weight to it psychologically than an act that must be explained through pictorials and phrases every time it is referred to. If it is a named phenominon, then it will stick in the minds of the devs, thus becoming a real problem as opposed to 'nebulous theory'.

So, go forth my fellow mechwarriors. 3peek like mad and get both vids and screenshots of it. Yes, I know others have already started doing it, but apparently it takes a flood of common sense to change anything at PGI.

[Chavette]

Thank you for saving time from writing the same thing.

[KingCobra]

Mr. OP have you ever considered the possibility that other players might like playing in 3rd person? Im sure it has crossed your little mind has it not? I personnaly enjoy 3rd person view it is easy on my eyes it does not in this game give me much of a advantage and I really don't care about having a advantage in game play just the enjoyment of playing the game in either view. Im also sure many others are enjoying 3rd person view also. So to conclude all you 3rd person haters need to stop trolling this game play the game or leave let others play it the way they want as well.

[image removed]

Edited by miSs, 24 August 2013 - 11:42 AM.
Doesn't add to discussion

[FounderSlayer]

Excellent post OP.

+1000

Edited by FounderSlayer, 24 August 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Samophlange]

Not to go too far off the OP, but...

It was mentioned in a few posts that using 3PV in particular ways is an "exploit". I'm not sure how use of an purposely crafted and intentionally programmed feature in the game can be considered an exploit. Since it is in the game now, and put there in a very obvious and easy to use format, its use is, and will be, allowed without any consequence.

If it is an "exploit" to use it in a beneficial manner, then shouldn't it be removed like any other exploitative feature that is intentionally or unintentionally put into the game? This isn't a tool/feature that has to be manipulated in certain specific ways to find functionality. Its a keystroke away.

If mech "x" seems to get triple the benefit out of heatsinks placed in the arms when standing in water for no logical reason, and people intentionally use that error to their benefit....that's an exploit.
The extra viewing capabilities of 3PV? That was clearly obvious when they were designing it. It would be shocking to think that no one at all noticed this application of this view mode throughout the design and implementation of it. Some things go unnoticed, but this feature is working as intended, negatives or positives aside.

Interesting consequences and responses, nonetheless.

[DeadlyNerd]

Zuesacoatl, on 24 August 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

You really need to read posts from people you wish to degrade. I did state that I drop in team drops as a clan leader and in one of the open ts servers offered to the community. I have seen what the OP is talking about when it comes to top teams. I have seen real steam rolls. It is a very different world in team play, I am the first to admit it. How I know my elo, I don't, but I know my own skill, and as a solo dropper, I rate myself at average. I do not see the real top dogs in my matches, but I do see a lot of wannabes dropping with me. Again, I have yet to see HB, Koreanese, or some of the other big names in my solo drops, and though I wish it otherwise, I do not think i ever will. It is pretty easy to gauge where you rest in elo, as long as you look past ego, and take your initial observations about oneself down a couple notches to have a real assessments of ones skills.

Again, how exactly do you know that you shouldn't be seeing "top dogs"? By your logic, this should be directly tied to the Elo rating system, so how do you know you're in a bracket where they aren't and it's not just that they ain't playing the game? I ain't seeing you in none of my games, yet I'm seeing some of the "top dogs". Does that mean my Elo rating is high? heck no, but it doesn't exclude the possibility.
Look, I can understand self evaluation, but you cannot evaluate your Elo rating, there is absolutely no way you can be sure that you don't have high Elo rating players in your drops.

They're probably going to be in your drops, exploit 3pv, steamroll you and provide no fun for you, or other "average joes".

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 24 August 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Big Bad Wulf]

Hi, excellent post! here lies our problem there are those of us who expected a "Mech simulator" game born out of playing Battletech Board game through all MechWarrior Games and there are those who are playing the game without the background and are just in it for the fun. Those who have the background (including me) of the previous BT/MW are complaining about their favorite Mech simulator game being turned into a console game like the NES or Xbox series, not to mention the numerous exploits this mode presents. Those that are in it for fun think that the 3PV is ok because they grew up with it and do not think its a big deal. Because we do not present a united view PGI will continue to ignore us. They know no matter how they screw this game up people will continue to play it. So unless we set aside our differences in opinions we will never force PGI to fix/make the changes to this game. Let us all draw the line here, since to its advocators 3PV does not offer any advantage they won't mind if it is completely taken out of the game. Let us start with this if we came do this then we can force PGI to fix the "Hit detection" issues, movement issues and so forth. But we have to stand as one!

[Caleb Lee]

Zuesacoatl, on 24 August 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

Herein lies the problem. Some of us don't care.

Ty, sorry for being so blunt, but it is time people stopped talking to the "competitive" crowd with soft filters on.

TL:DR - Exactly, that's the only reason PGI can get away with telling us one thing over and over and then doing the exact opposite. Some of us have standards and being lied to on a regular basis violates that standard.

A lot of us have spent money supporting them in a vision of a game they purposefully created to attract the Mechwarrior fan base only to have them build something completely opposite in very key areas from what was promised. It's in many ways blatant false advertising and if they hadn't already written in some very good disclaimers would be grounds for a class action lawsuit.

The group of people that don't care are the same sort of people that let {Godwin's Law} into power back in WW II. That's at an extreme end, but frankly I'm thankful for constructive posts like this that state the nature of the issue very clearly and in a for the most part, polite fashion.

PGI should really pay attention as I keep running into new players in other games like War Thunder that are jumping ship from Mechwarrior Online. I for one can't recommend the game to anyone at this point and simply hope they'll eventually get their act together. As I said, I bought the Founders Legendary and the Overlord Phoenix packages.

That's more than most players have spent and not nearly as much as many of the more die hard fanbase on here have poured into PGI. My wallet is now closed to them until they can straighten this out. If they go under, they will go under and I'll be a little sad as this is my favorite genre. There are many other games like Star Citizen that actually seem to care and think making a complex system/simulator instead of dumbing down for the masses is a 'good' thing, and that's where my money will go.

I'm tired of companies lowering the bar because today's educational standards keep lowering theirs as well. Seriously, piloting a mech is NOT that hard.

[Caleb Lee]

Samophlange, on 24 August 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Not to go too far off the OP, but...

It was mentioned in a few posts that using 3PV in particular ways is an "exploit". I'm not sure how use of an purposely crafted and intentionally programmed feature in the game can be considered an exploit. Since it is in the game now, and put there in a very obvious and easy to use format, its use is, and will be, allowed without any consequence.

If it is an "exploit" to use it in a beneficial manner, then shouldn't it be removed like any other exploitative feature that is intentionally or unintentionally put into the game? This isn't a tool/feature that has to be manipulated in certain specific ways to find functionality. Its a keystroke away.

If mech "x" seems to get triple the benefit out of heatsinks placed in the arms when standing in water for no logical reason, and people intentionally use that error to their benefit....that's an exploit.
The extra viewing capabilities of 3PV? That was clearly obvious when they were designing it. It would be shocking to think that no one at all noticed this application of this view mode throughout the design and implementation of it. Some things go unnoticed, but this feature is working as intended, negatives or positives aside.

Interesting consequences and responses, nonetheless.

It's no more broken than when LRMs were one shot wonders due to bad coding with trajectory and lack of spreading damage over the torso and high damage. A great majority of the player base used them because they were long range, required little skill to lock on, and were deadly, and more effective than pretty much anything else in the game. They fixed that 'bug' in a subsequent patch but the pattern has repeated itself over and over.

The OP's point is that PGI promised there wouldn't be any advantage. They also promised we would have separate queues. They lied on both accounts and failed to deliver in many ways.

So following this logic, people using 3PV are exploiting something the devs never intended, just failed to test properly as usual. Hopefully they'll fix both accounts or simply restrict 3PV to the starter period only. Until then, myself and many players I know will refuse to support them or play the game.

[RedDragon]

Bumping for great justice.

[RedDragon]

Just an heads-up: I got an official forwarding from Garth to the game designers on this topic, so let's all cross fingers it will have some influence

[MuonNeutrino]

RedDragon, on 27 August 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Just an heads-up: I got an official forwarding from Garth to the game designers on this topic, so let's all cross fingers it will have some influence

Thanks for forwarding it to them; I always feel uncomfortable doing that sort of thing. I'm sure I didn't say anything that hadn't been said before amongst the huge amount of posts on this topic, but I don't think I ever saw all of the points I made gathered into one post in a coherent narrative, so if nothing else perhaps it will do some good that way.