22 replies to this topic

[The Mechromancer]

I understand how fun it is to cram in loads of heavy weapons..

But these mechs' sides are sooo easy to focus, and it is EXTREMELY easy to tell who is running them based on loadout.

I honestly think I've killed more Catas, and Jäger XL mechs than anything else on the battlefield combined, just by focusing on their shoulders.

Just a reoccurring thought I wanted to throw out there


Edit: sorry about the multi-post.. I don't know how to fix that...

Edited by The Mechromancer, 22 August 2013 - 10:53 PM.

[Anjian]

I actually took out the XL engine off my Ilya and put a STD engine on it. The purposes are two fold. Yes, to improve survivability. The second, to open up as much slots to stuff an AC20 on it. The AC20 is the viper of the battlefield. When you got mechs running around with it, things tend to die quickly and suddenly.

The torso mounted AC20 isn't as flexible or as fast aiming as an arm mounted weapon, but it does a better job of clearing low lying obstacles, than lets say, an arm mounted gauss.

Edited by Anjian, 22 August 2013 - 10:58 PM.

[The Mechromancer]

I'm curious how often you feel you are "shouldered". Because when I think of an "XL friendly" mech.. A Cata is not one of them IMO...

[627]

depends on the phract variant. Take a 3D even without an XL, if you loose your right shoulder, you're mostly weaponless, what do you have left, 2 ML?

Survivability is the one thing, having an impact with destroyed sides is the other. I see lots of zombie jagers that can do nothing but run arround weaponless. While this can be good for the team (soaking damage or providing mobile cover) you see it not really often and mostly in premades.
But you can't do much for the final outcome. So you could have died anyway without a big loss to the team.

On the other side - jagers need an XL for a good (or cheesy) loadout, more than phracts. And even in those 70 ton mechs it can be a good strategy as long as you don't run into the brawl as first.

I have as much success in my XL phracts as in my STDs. It's a different kind of play, though.

[One Medic Army]

My solution is simple, don't XL cataphracts, GIGANTIC XL cataphracts.
325XL engine gets a Cataphract going fast enough, and maneuvering well enough, that you can actually guard your sides via twisting, and moving to cover quickly.

280std vs 325XL I haven't felt much survivability difference, the 280 can soak damage, but the 325XL can spread and avoid damage.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I run a 3D with a 280XL that gets me 70kph, it frees tonnage so I can carry two gauss rifles with six tons of ammo and three mlas for backup.

I could not run that with a STD, it's a risk to use an XL sure but it allows we to provide long range 30pt damage or 45 up close which means I can outgun most opponents and do so without overheating.

It's a simple risk reward equation and for how rarely I die to side torso destruction it's worth being able to kill 5-6 people while doing 800 damage.

[Bishop Steiner]

One Medic Army, on 22 August 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

My solution is simple, don't XL cataphracts, GIGANTIC XL cataphracts.
325XL engine gets a Cataphract going fast enough, and maneuvering well enough, that you can actually guard your sides via twisting, and moving to cover quickly.

280std vs 325XL I haven't felt much survivability difference, the 280 can soak damage, but the 325XL can spread and avoid damage.

340XL is even better.

Fact is, I die to center torso core more than anything. XL vs Standard don't matter at that point. But by being able to move 86 kph, I can bring a lot of firepower to the party fast, and get out of dodge if things are too hot. Moving fast and torso twisting tends to keep my ST intact. My twin AC10 jackhammers" and Medium Lasers do the rest.

[DegeneratePervert]

It is pointless to run a Jager without an XL, because if you lose both side torsos, all you can do is bite at the enemy's ankles. Also, the AC/10 sucks, so there really isn't a "light" ballistic worthy of a Jager right now. Besides, the extra speed afforded by the XL more than makes up for the vulnerability in a Jager.

A Cataphract is a slightly different beast, but most if not all variants can benefit from an XL. The exception being the 1X, which becomes a wrecking machine when given 5x ML and an AC/20.

So, like others have said, sometimes it is not a question of survivability; sometimes, it is a question of being worthless or not.

[Gevurah]

XL engines in a phract a two-fold death sentence:

1) Wide torsos
2) Huge amounts of ballistic weaponry GENERALLY mean that there's probably a gauss rifle or ammo which might get popped, depending on your build.

Honestly I find with an STD engine the cataphract is a fantastic brawler able to take masses of punishment. As to losing your right side and getting down to only two ML's...

So what?

Two ML's are devastating when used effectively and at least you're not completely out of the fight. I can't even count the amount of times my centurion or cataphract has been down to two ML's just blazing away like there's no tomorrow, only to just barely survive and have huge kill/damage to boot. These are usually situations where an XL would have killed me and cut my uptime down to half or even a third of what it ended up being with damage and kills far below what they ended up being. The best part is I can look at that honestly and say that "Ok I had like 2 kills and had only shot about 10 rounds of ac20 ammo before they took out my side torso, but I ended the round at 690 damage and 5 kills, so obviously a large chunk of that came from the MLs."

Not trying to be combative, just trying to make a long winded point.

phract + xl = dead in most cases
phract + std = pretty epic brawler.

Except the 4x. Screw that mech.

[DarkDevilDancer]

The 4x wrecks faces i can take a variety of ballistic loadouts and win, its slow sure but its easily capable of stripping an atlas down in seconds when piloted right.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gevurah, on 23 August 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

XL engines in a phract a two-fold death sentence:

1) Wide torsos
2) Huge amounts of ballistic weaponry GENERALLY mean that there's probably a gauss rifle or ammo which might get popped, depending on your build.

However I have always run an XL in my Cataphract 3D and very rarely do I ever die to a side torso shot. I would bet I it is less than 1 in 10 actually. It is also one of my favorite, top performing mechs in the game.

DegeneratePervert, on 23 August 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

It is pointless to run a Jager without an XL, because if you lose both side torsos, all you can do is bite at the enemy's ankles. Also, the AC/10 sucks, so there really isn't a "light" ballistic worthy of a Jager right now. Besides, the extra speed afforded by the XL more than makes up for the vulnerability in a Jager.

A Cataphract is a slightly different beast, but most if not all variants can benefit from an XL. The exception being the 1X, which becomes a wrecking machine when given 5x ML and an AC/20.

So, like others have said, sometimes it is not a question of survivability; sometimes, it is a question of being worthless or not.

Honestly I found it pointless to RUN an XL on a JagerMech. When I run a XL on a Jager, at least 70% of my deaths are due to the Side Torso. Also I can't count on both hands how many kills I have gotten after I got one side of my Jaggy taken out. Just a few match ago, I got my left torso taken out early and still went on to get 3 kills with only the Right LB-10X, 2MGs and 1 ML. Managed to output over 400 damage with that one arm as well. Lastly, both the AC/10 and the LB-10X rock on the Jaggy when paired up so your evaluation on the ballastics available to a Jaggy is strictly opinion.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 24 August 2013 - 10:49 PM.

[Escef]

I was running a 255 XL on my 4X, along with 2 MLs and quad AC5. High risk, high reward. If you go unnoticed, you will virtually melt other mechs away. Unfortunately, quad AC5 tend to grab attention HARD. I eventually pulled the XL and the quad 5s for a 255 STD, a Gauss, and an AC10. Works surprisingly well.

I pack the stock 280XL in my 3D. It's risky, and barely fast enough with speed tweak (it's amazing how much difference that 10% boost can make, it's almost like I'm running a 310). Combine with the mobility of jets and the firepower of twin LPLs and a Gauss? Generally worth it. I do well with it, and I don't consider myself significantly better than mediocre (I think I've bounced in and out of ELO Hell a couple times). In the hands of a truly good player, that thing would probably eat people alive. Hell, I once cored an Atlas with it in surprisingly short order.

[LordBraxton]

My Phract3D runs an XL 330-340 depending on loadout

I use the 82-86kph speed to keep at range and use the JJs and twist speed to keep the damage on my arms

I think of XLs as granting more SPEED not more FIREPOWER

[Goose]

ACs tend to require XLs …

[Jiffy]

The only Cataphract I'd run with an XL is the 3D (and I do). The jumpjets add a bit of extra maneuverability that the other variants don't have access to, so you can get away with running an XL engine just fine.

[Sephlock]

Quote

My Do So Many Cataphracts Run Xls?

Because of 15 minute sessions of "Find the Raven" on Alpine, Tourmaline, or Mordor.

Also, so that you have a better chance of actually encountering enemies before the 5 minute mark on those maps.

[Urdnot Mau]

Mostly i see 3Ds running XL, wich is very funny cause i ran mine with a STD going at 70 kph and 1 Gauss + 2 PPCs, wich is not bad for the heaviest of the heavies. If you see a CTF with 2 ERPPCs, you can be almost 100% sure he has an XL, cause it's just too damm hot. A CTF with 2 Gauss without an XL is very rare... You can shoot the right arm, wich will blow the Gauss at the right torso, wich will blow the engine. With other CTF i don't really bother going for the sides, cause most of them just run STD ( i RARELLY see the 1X) with a decent loadout, But if i ever see a CTF with an open side torso, that's where i aim

[Stryder67]

Urdnot Mau, on 25 August 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Mostly i see 3Ds running XL, wich is very funny cause i ran mine with a STD going at 70 kph and 1 Gauss + 2 PPCs, wich is not bad for the heaviest of the heavies. If you see a CTF with 2 ERPPCs, you can be almost 100% sure he has an XL, cause it's just too damm hot. A CTF with 2 Gauss without an XL is very rare... You can shoot the right arm, wich will blow the Gauss at the right torso, wich will blow the engine. With other CTF i don't really bother going for the sides, cause most of them just run STD ( i RARELLY see the 1X) with a decent loadout, But if i ever see a CTF with an open side torso, that's where i aim

I run 2 ERPPC's and a STD engine on my 1X and it's very, very surviveable. I got enough DHS that I can alpha 3-4 times before having to switch to chain fire then I never over-heat.

[Spinning Burr]

Cataphract is far and away my favorite chassis and I have 30 mech bays by now. The only one that I would run with standard engine is the 1X with AC20 and 5 ML's. I rarely play it. My Muromets, 3D, and 4X all have XL's all the time. I find them much more durable than my Jagermechs (also usually with XL's) with ballistic loadouts. Both have comparable speed, Jagers have better (high) arm mounts, but less armor and less survivability. I used to really hate on the phract 4X and saw it as worthless compared to either Muromets or the Jagers. I've since changed my mind after I discovered the key to 4X success is a loadout that forces an engine size of 250-255XL on another mech regardless of max engine rating. For example, running a 4X with quad AC2's or quad AC5's will be inferior to a Jager with same weapons or even a Muromets with triple UAC5's because these mechs are much faster and therefore more survivable with similar or identical ballistic firepower. However, once you factor an AC10 or LBX10 into your mix the balance changes. The heavier weapon brings the other mechs down in engine size into the 4X's speed zone. I load my 4X with 255XL an AC2, two AC5's, and an AC10 and it is a beast! No other mech on the field can hold that kind of loadout with better armor or more speed. This is my "honeybadger" mech and it has become my best killer (better than 1X AC20 standard engine brawler). It is comparable to the dual AC20 boomcats and boomjagers in firepower ferocity. I call it honeybadger because it usually wins a 1-on-1 slugfest against an Atlas or a Stalker (where both mechs are fresh) where the assault usually thinks I'm easy prey and then proceeds to get pounded into oblivion. This build has been called a "super heavy" on the field by other players.

[Zordicron]

One Medic Army, on 22 August 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

My solution is simple, don't XL cataphracts, GIGANTIC XL cataphracts.
325XL engine gets a Cataphract going fast enough, and maneuvering well enough, that you can actually guard your sides via twisting, and moving to cover quickly.

280std vs 325XL I haven't felt much survivability difference, the 280 can soak damage, but the 325XL can spread and avoid damage.

This. Using an XL to get more guns is folly on a phract, unless you are in some premade and your pals know you are the pokey gun tote fire support.

GIANT XL for speed if you want XL, not puny XL for more guns. I stuck a 325( I think what, like 84kph?) on my 2X with 2 PPC a LPL and I think some SRM or something(I forget, i changed it back to a STD later) and did amazingly well because of the turn rate increase.(changed it back when the movement stuff went live, to many stupid little rocks) Sort of like a 9M awesome, once you get big enough XL, it becomes an advantage because you can actually spread dmg easier and get better position on your foe.

I have to edit this for the 4X. That is one odd bird, and every loadout ever for it departs pretty heavy from what you can do on the other phracts from the max engine thing.

Actually now that i look the post above me sort of covers the 4X pretty well. It is an odd bird for sure.

Edited by Eldagore, 25 August 2013 - 09:03 PM.