34 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Ask the Devs 27. Dec 04 2012

"Q: Can we please at least try DHS at 2.0? It doesn't seem like much of a boost to lights who usually benefit mostly from the engine heat sinks, but heavies and assaults that use big energy weapons need the boost. [Wolfways]
A: No. Prior to releasing the Dual Heatsink upgrade the forums were abuzz with whether or not they would be mandatory on all Mechs. With the numbers we've chosen, they aren't, so I'd say we answered those questions well. [Garth]"

So, anyone using single heatsinks?

[Rippthrough]

Nope. Dev math again - "This is what it says in my head so lets fiddle the numbers until they sort of agree"


Then "Ooops, sorry, didn't work, not sure why*, we'll get back to you"




*Usually shortly after 40 threads and 2000 posts going through the math and explaining why they f**ked up by the people actually playing the damned game. Some of which will have been before the feature was implemented.

Edited by Rippthrough, 24 August 2013 - 04:24 AM.

[rdelta78]

Nope. Single Heatsinks are terrible and I always upgrade to double. Let me give you an example: I tried 2 medium lasers and a single SSRM with 10 SHS and guess what. The heat from this small build is unbearable. That's why every standard light, medium and heavy with singles is having troubles with heat.

Another example, AC-5 with a single LPL and 10 heatsinks. Absolutely not enough! With Doubles... it's a different story.


They need to change the heat system in this game. You are forced to always spend 1,5 mill on Dheatsinks. Even if you have two weapons...

[Chemie]

10 DHS vs 20 SHS

saves 10 crit slots
saves 10 tons (biggest of all upgrades)
equal heat dissipation
costs 1.5MM CB

The ONLY ppl running SHS are ppl with not enough CB to buy them (or really dumb pugs). I have owned ~40 mechs and every one of them has been DHS. If Garth said this, it is truly a statement of stupidity.

Having said that, DHS at 2.0 is dumb too OP. Sorry, but DHS is at the root of most balance issues (energy weapons). Before DHS, things were much more balanced. It would be better to make the engine DHS 1.4 or change the capacity to 1 (from 2)

Edited by Chemie, 24 August 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[Wolfways]

Chemie, on 24 August 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

...change the capacity to 1 (from 2)

I completely agree with that.

[MechWarrior849305]

Chemie, on 24 August 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

10 DHS vs 20 SHS

saves 10 crit slots
saves 10 tons (biggest of all upgrades)
equal heat dissipation
costs 1.5MM CB

Wrong comparison. You have to compare 10 SHS vs 10 DHS
So, 10DHS vs 10SHS
-1.5kk CBills
+10 Heat Cap
+4 Heat diss
0 crit slot difference.
Guess the peoples' choice...

[Snowcrow]

DuoAngel, on 24 August 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Wrong comparison. You have to compare 10 SHS vs 10 DHS
So, 10DHS vs 10SHS
-1.5kk CBills
+10 Heat Cap
+4 Heat diss
0 crit slot difference.
Guess the peoples' choice...

Remember that double heatsinks that are inside the engine are true double heat sinks. So you should write +10 heat diss instead.

Edited by Snowcrow, 24 August 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[MechWarrior849305]

Snowcrow, on 24 August 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Remeber that double heatsinks that are inside the engine are true double heat sinks. So you should write +10 heat diss instead.

Oww, I forgot, ty. That's even worse

[Chemie]

DuoAngel, on 24 August 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Wrong comparison. You have to compare 10 SHS vs 10 DHS
So, 10DHS vs 10SHS
-1.5kk CBills
+10 Heat Cap
+4 Heat diss
0 crit slot difference.
Guess the peoples' choice...

Wrong. Mine is the right comparison because I am comparing equal heat systems (equal capacity and dissipation)

Edited by Chemie, 24 August 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[Khobai]

SHS should be outright worse than DHS because DHS cost 2 million to upgrade to. It would be really unfair to players who have already spent tens of millions upgrading all their mechs to DHS to suddenly have SHS be a viable alternative. Unless of course you want to refund all those cbills.

That said, I do think SHS could use a buff in order to help out trial mechs, but SHS should never be better than DHS.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 24 August 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

SHS should be outright worse than DHS because DHS cost 2 million to upgrade to. It would be really unfair to players who have already spent tens of millions upgrading all their mechs to DHS to suddenly have SHS be a viable alternative. Unless of course you want to refund all those cbills.

It's not all that different from things like Artemis, Endo, etc. Standard internals and standard guidance are both plenty viable (I even have to switch internal types on my K2 pretty quite often), but nobody claims that it's unfair for those who spent cash on Endo and Artemis.

...
TBH, I personally think it's kinda wonky that we have to rebuy upgrades every time we want to use them--yes, I realize that having technicians rip out my internal skeleton or whatever is costly in real life, but why don't I have to pay to replace my Machine Guns with AC/2s, or my PPCs with LL, or downsize my engine, etc.? It's an inconsistent and self-contradicting system.

Khobai, on 24 August 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

That said, I do think SHS could use a buff in order to help out trial mechs, but SHS should never be better than DHS.

They don't have to be "better" to be a worthwhile tactical option; they just have to be different. Basically, pros and cons. The most popular idea I've seen is to have DHS actually provide twice the cooling of SHS (even when outside of the engine), but at the downside of not increasing one's heat capacity (the dissipation for truedubs would probably also be faster than our current 0.2 per second). The downside of using SHS under such a system would be that you have to deal with terribad slow dissipation in exchange for that capacity increase.

That leaves DHS still very useful (especially on brawler type builds), if not slightly more useful still because of SHS being waaay slower at cooling than dubs.

Edited by FupDup, 24 August 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Alcatraz968]

Simple solution. Take the double heat sinks out of the engine (Make them singles), or make it so only single heat sinks fit in the engine.

[Alistair Winter]

PGI tried to pass this off as if the DHS upgrade wasn't simply a C-bill sink, forcing people to grind an extra 1,5 million for each and every one of their mechs. Naturally, everyone looked right through that, but there was not enough noise to make them do anything about it. Unless fans actually spam their twitter accounts and go crazy on the forum, they figure it's a "don't fix it if it's not broken" situation.

One of the many things in this game that would literally be fixed by a single keystroke, changing some values and letting the beta testers (lol) try it out.

On a positive note, the Locust will probably be the first mech in the history of the game that actually benefits from having SHS. because the tiny engine cap means that you need at least 4 external heat sinks. So yeah. Of 24 mechs in this game, 1 of them will benefit from SHS.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Alistair Winter, on 24 August 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

PGI tried to pass this off as if the DHS upgrade wasn't simply a C-bill sink, forcing people to grind an extra 1,5 million for each and every one of their mechs. Naturally, everyone looked right through that, but there was not enough noise to make them do anything about it. Unless fans actually spam their twitter accounts and go crazy on the forum, they figure it's a "don't fix it if it's not broken" situation.

One of the many things in this game that would literally be fixed by a single keystroke, changing some values and letting the beta testers (lol) try it out.

On a positive note, the Locust will probably be the first mech in the history of the game that actually benefits from having SHS. because the tiny engine cap means that you need at least 4 external heat sinks. So yeah. Of 24 mechs in this game, 1 of them will benefit from SHS.

And out of every mech in the game, this one will be too small to mount any significant firepower to use its heat sinks.

But, I guess the Flea would be in an equally bad position unless they swapped machine guns for Mgun Arrays.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 24 August 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

PGI tried to pass this off as if the DHS upgrade wasn't simply a C-bill sink, forcing people to grind an extra 1,5 million for each and every one of their mechs. Naturally, everyone looked right through that, but there was not enough noise to make them do anything about it. Unless fans actually spam their twitter accounts and go crazy on the forum, they figure it's a "don't fix it if it's not broken" situation.

One of the many things in this game that would literally be fixed by a single keystroke, changing some values and letting the beta testers (lol) try it out.

On a positive note, the Locust will probably be the first mech in the history of the game that actually benefits from having SHS. because the tiny engine cap means that you need at least 4 external heat sinks. So yeah. Of 24 mechs in this game, 1 of them will benefit from SHS.

What's so sad about the Locust is that its optimal loadout will almost certainly be 1 ERLL + 2 MGs; which allows just enough critical space for DHS.

[Tincan Nightmare]

FupDup, on 24 August 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

...
TBH, I personally think it's kinda wonky that we have to rebuy upgrades every time we want to use them--yes, I realize that having technicians rip out my internal skeleton or whatever is costly in real life, but why don't I have to pay to replace my Machine Guns with AC/2s, or my PPCs with LL, or downsize my engine, etc.? It's an inconsistent and self-contradicting system.

This right here has also stumped me. You've already paid for the upgrade, why not just have the means to toggle it on or off. The most expensive one is the DHS, and frankly once you've bought that its not going away, so why punish players for switching back and forth with Artemis, Ferro, and Endo? Especially after a reduction in earnings per match. As you point out, you can swap weapons at no charge all day long (as long as you own the weapon), why punish for the upgrades? Now not only has the time to buy a mech (especially assaults) gone up thanks to lower earnings, but once you buy one it will take you longer to upgrade it. Not to mention the cost of modules. Sounds more like a premium time sink than a Cbill one.

[Pezzer]

Khobai, on 24 August 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

SHS should be outright worse than DHS because DHS cost 2 million to upgrade to. It would be really unfair to players who have already spent tens of millions upgrading all their mechs to DHS to suddenly have SHS be a viable alternative. Unless of course you want to refund all those cbills.

That said, I do think SHS could use a buff in order to help out trial mechs, but SHS should never be better than DHS.

Refund the Cbills and do things right the firs-err, second time. It's that simple. What everyone above me has been saying.

Edited by Pezzer, 24 August 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[Khobai]

DHS being a c-bill sink is fine. Whats not fine is making SHS a free viable alternative to DHS when people have already paid to upgrade to DHS.

Quote

Refund the Cbills

Yep and id be fine with that. But I've spent close to 60 million upgrading all my mechs to DHS. Its no small amount of money lol. Its easy for some noob to come on here and say "make SHS viable" when all they have is a couple mechs. But they dont think about the consequences for anyone else.

Edited by Khobai, 24 August 2013 - 07:42 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I'd gladly spend CBills converting to singles if it means they become viable.

Khobai, on 24 August 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

DHS being a c-bill sink is fine. Whats not fine is making SHS a free viable alternative to DHS when people have already paid to upgrade to DHS.



Yep and id be fine with that. But I've spent close to 60 million upgrading all my mechs to DHS. Its no small amount of money lol. Its easy for some noob to come on here and say "make SHS viable" when all they have is a couple mechs. But they dont think about the consequences for anyone else.

Sounds awfully selfish, don't you think? You'd allow new players to continue to languish with their useless SHS builds because you've already paid for doubles?

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 24 August 2013 - 08:02 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 24 August 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

DHS being a c-bill sink is fine. Whats not fine is making SHS a free viable alternative to DHS when people have already paid to upgrade to DHS.

SHS aren't "free." I'm pretty sure that they're factored into the purchase cost of the chassis, and the game makes you pay spacebucks every time you swap sink types.

By the way, I don't see you making any similar claims for any other tech upgrade such as standard guidance compared to Artemis when both items are viable. Or how about mechs with Endo Steel, when standard structure is totally viable on DHS-packed heavies + assaults? You're looking at heat sinks it in a vacuum while forgetting that all of the other tech upgrades are actually sidegrades in many cases.

Khobai, on 24 August 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Yep and id be fine with that. But I've spent close to 60 million upgrading all my mechs to DHS. Its no small amount of money lol. Its easy for some noob to come on here and say "make SHS viable" when all they have is a couple mechs. But they dont think about the consequences for anyone else.

Not to be too ad-hominem, but you're being pretty selfish here. You spent a lot of spacebucks to min-max your mansion full of robots, and because of that you want one of the items in the game to remain an useless waste of mechlab pixels?

(Note: improving SHS without making them into actual sidegrades still keeps them effectively useless because there is 100% superior equipment available. For equipment in competitive PvP games to be deemed "useful," they cannot be eclipsed in every single possible way by a different piece of equipment).


The spacebucks you spent don't suddenly disappear down the toilet. You don't have to re-buy SHS on any of your mechs, because DHS would have a legimate role(s) to fill and still remain useful + competitive. That's what tactical sidegrades are all about. You don't have to use them to compete. You can live just fine without using them. Your whole garage of DHS robots would continue to perform well in battle if SHS served a purpose beyond being a noob trap.

Edited by FupDup, 24 August 2013 - 08:11 PM.