50 replies to this topic

[ricardox]

Was going to use this as a reply to one of the threads about it but here is my thoughts on why you need more ammunition for ballistic/missile weapons when increasing number of combatants. I'll try to be brief as possible.

If you had the same ammo load out that optimized of 8v8 match, you'd need more for 12v12 match. This is because 1) different missiles and ballistic weapons have different ammo and more importantly, 2) Ammunition does not transfer to surviving mechs when one is eliminated (since everyone uses Gauss R anyway, lol) . This is not to say that 50% more mechs require 50% more ammo. There is a diminishing percentage increase that is necessary as number of combatants increase.

Let's look at simple case of 1v1. Let's say one side just uses energy weapons and the other ammunition based (missile or ballistic) For the sake of simplicity, let's say 1 ton of ammo is what's necessary for matches of 1v1. Neither side has an advantage and equal probability of win.

Now let's give make it 2v2. It's kind of easy to see in most scenarios, energy has the advantage here over ballistic/missile mechs optimized for 1v1. For example if 1 energy mech dies and 1 ballistic mech dies (leaving the other 2 unharmed) , remaining energy mech is unaffected in the 1v1, while the ballistic mech now is short of the optimized 1ton that's needed.

And on and on (with scenarios getting much more complex) till 12v12.

The issue is balance between energy (heat limited) and ballistic/missile (ammunition limited). Going to 12v12 does not impact heat limited case quite as much as the ammunition limited. Those builds using optimum ballistic for 8v8 will find that they run short of optimum for 12v12.

Now, what should be the increase? The situation is rather complex so I'd fall back to the old "heuristics".. ie. trial and error. I'd say give 20% a try, it can always be tweaked later (probably to the hue and cry of the masses).

[Joseph Mallan]

I have run out of ammo 2-5 times in 12 on 12. Add some energy weapons or remove a couple for more ammo.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 26 August 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Randalf Yorgen]

The moral of the story.... Always have a back up laser. Also there are dozens of threads about this already. Just get a commander to call targets and your scouts to call if the fire is effective to save ammo if you are just hitting a cliff. It's not rocket science, it's teamwork.

[ricardox]

Randalf Yorgen, on 26 August 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

The moral of the story.... Always have a back up laser. Also there are dozens of threads about this already. Just get a commander to call targets and your scouts to call if the fire is effective to save ammo if you are just hitting a cliff. It's not rocket science, it's teamwork.

By saying that you're actually proving the point. That ammunition based weapons are slightly less valuable vs energy weapons when going to more players.

Why should what was "equal builds" (one based on Energy other on Ballistic/Missile) in 8vs8 change for 12vs12?

I agree that you can adapt by simply carrying a backup ENERGY weapon but that would just be conceding the point, actually.

[Roughneck45]

No, you don't need more ammo.

The other 4 mechs you bring are that "ammo".

The only time you need more ammo is if you miss too many shots, or you have to carry your team way harder than ELO should allow.

[Rippthrough]

Roughneck45, on 26 August 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

The only time you need more ammo is if you miss too many shots, or you have to carry your team way harder than ELO should allow.

Every game then?

[Jaynestown]

The weapons are actually fairly well balanced already in terms of possible damage per ton. Take the Smurfy-net numbers and throw them in excel, and take a look after factoring in effective heat sinks (in tons). If you keep buffing ammo based weapons such that no one ever runs out of ammo... then what is the point of having ammo based weapons? They would be effectively unlimited.

[Roughneck45]

Rippthrough, on 26 August 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Every game then?

Feels that way sometimes lol. I just go into every match expecting to lose the pug lottery so I can only be pleasantly surprised.

Edited by Roughneck45, 26 August 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[ricardox]

Jaynestown, on 26 August 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

The weapons are actually fairly well balanced already in terms of possible damage per ton. Take the Smurfy-net numbers and throw them in excel, and take a look after factoring in effective heat sinks (in tons). If you keep buffing ammo based weapons such that no one ever runs out of ammo... then what is the point of having ammo based weapons? They would be effectively unlimited.

Actually, this is a very good point.

Another way to "balance" the two is to increase the damage per ton for ballistic/missile weapons.. but that brings more problems than just increasing ammo count per ton.

[ricardox]

Roughneck45, on 26 August 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

The only time you need more ammo is if you miss too many shots, or you have to carry your team way harder than ELO should allow.

And this never happens....

EDIT: and no.. that's not the only time. Most people I find, tend to carry more ammo than what is used usually just to ensure they dont run out. Going to 12v12 made bit of that margin go away for those people. Point actually still stands.

Edited by ricardox, 26 August 2013 - 12:39 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

ricardox, on 26 August 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

By saying that you're actually proving the point. That ammunition based weapons are slightly less valuable vs energy weapons when going to more players.

Why should what was "equal builds" (one based on Energy other on Ballistic/Missile) in 8vs8 change for 12vs12?

I agree that you can adapt by simply carrying a backup ENERGY weapon but that would just be conceding the point, actually.

No he is regurgitating the Canon for why Lasers weapons are used. Cause most Mechs are designed with less than 2 minutes worth of ammo for sustain fire. So if you want more ammo give up something to bring it.

[Modo44]

There should be no increase. Take more ammo by dropping the engine/heatsinks/whatever, and/or add some backup energy weapons to your silly build.

[LauLiao]

Only ever run out of ammo when my teammates aren't doing their job.

[Monky]

The difficulty with loading more ammo on = fewer heatsinks to keep your energy backup weapons cool. More heatsinks = fewer shots from your heavy ammo consuming weapons before they become dead weight.

The issue really isn't with this though, it's with 'how many tons does it take to make X weapon setup viable, and how many mechs can run that setup'

It is increasingly difficult to mount multi-cannon builds as the number of chassis that have A: enough hardpoints and B: enough tonnage for all the extra ammo are getting rare. Already I can't really fit more than one ballistic and still have a solid compliment of SRM's or LRM's, Streaks are about the best I can manage.

[BlueVisionWarrior Online]

I used to think we didn't need ammo because the 4 extra people would bring it for me, but I've since changed my mind (mostly because I'm actually playing with 12v12 now not just theory crafting). a 20% increase seems way to big, I'm thinking 5-10%, just a little more ammo would be nice. That or bump heat on laser weapons, because as it stands, there's no reason to take an ac10 over a ppc.

[Joseph Mallan]

Monky, on 26 August 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

It is increasingly difficult to mount multi-cannon builds as the number of chassis that have A: enough hardpoints and B: enough tonnage for all the extra ammo are getting rare. Already I can't really fit more than one ballistic and still have a solid compliment of SRM's or LRM's, Streaks are about the best I can manage.

It is this way for a reason Monky. Its called balance. The down side to ballistics and Missiles is they need fed! If we keep upping ammo then there will be no down side to having a Ballistic or Missile weapon. I ran out of 4 tons of Gauss ammo and 4 tons of SRM Ammo for the first time in Months. I was pinned down with some other PUGs and we kept the enemy force tied up long enough for our team to join us. Thank goodness I have an ER PPC!

[Dawnstealer]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 August 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I have run out of ammo 2-5 times in 12 on 12. Add some energy weapons or remove a couple for more ammo.

This: always have laser backups.

[Roughneck45]

ricardox, on 26 August 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

EDIT: and no.. that's not the only time. Most people I find, tend to carry more ammo than what is used usually just to ensure they dont run out. Going to 12v12 made bit of that margin go away for those people. Point actually still stands.

The 4 other mechs are the "ammo". You do not need more ammo than what they give you already.

People bring whatever amount of ammo they are comfortable with, if you think you need more then fit it in. I've been running 3 tons of gauss ammo since closed beta and there has never been a reason to bring more, other than what I said earlier.

The damage per ton you can bring is pretty spot on for balance

[Angel of Annihilation]

I run the same ammo now as before and run out at about the same pace. You don't need more ammo simple because not only do you have 12 targets but you also have 12 teammates going after those targets. It is really pretty linear all the way around.

[Roughneck45]

LauLiao, on 26 August 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Only ever run out of ammo when my teammates aren't doing their job.

This is the #1 culprit for thinking you need more ammo.

Viktor Drake, on 26 August 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

I run the same ammo now as before and run out at about the same pace. You don't need more ammo simple because not only do you have 12 targets but you also have 12 teammates going after those targets. It is really pretty linear all the way around.

Exactly

Edited by Roughneck45, 26 August 2013 - 12:59 PM.