12 replies to this topic

[Renthrak]

I was going to write another wall-of-text, detailing the reasons for the high-Alpha meta and possible ways to address the many contributing factors, after reading the latest Ask The Devs. However, an idea was presented to me that changed my mind almost entirely.

The idea is to use the basic function of the 'Ghost Heat' system, which is a cumulative penalty for firing multiples of some weapons within a given period of time. Instead of increased heat, the cooldown of the weapons would increase. The effect would be vaguely similar, forcing the player to either fire fewer weapons together or to wait longer between shots, but it has several advantages over 'Ghost Heat'.

'Ghost Heat' relies on the shutdown threshold to act as a deterrent to using massive Alpha Strikes. However, this means that any Alpha Strike which does not reach 100% heat is essentially unaffected. The result in this case is delaying the next Alpha Strike, not reducing its power, which is the exact reason given by the devs for using 'Ghost Heat' instead of higher threshold and faster heat dissipation. This also means that the maximum amount of time that the second shot is delayed is equal to the time required for the 'Mech to dissipate 100% heat, which can be reduced by a number of methods including cooling consumables. 'Ghost Heat' also has no impact on the use of Gauss Rifles, leading to the upcoming 'charge to fire' system, which I do not expect to have a positive effect on the game.

In the case of a 'cooldown penalty', many of these issues are avoided. Because it is not reliant on heat, PPCs and Gauss Rifles can be grouped as weapons with the highest energy use, allowing 2 PPCs + Gauss to be affected by the penalty as easily as 3+ PPCs would be. Autocannons are much less reliant on heat as a limiting factor anyway, so there is little need for a penalty there (for now). This maintains the balance mechanic of arbitrarily assigning penalties for the excessive use of certain weapons, without the need to produce magic extra heat out of nowhere.

Just to have a place to start from, here is a potential breakdown of the system:

Group #1: PPC, ERPPC, Gauss Rifle
Limit: 2 within 0.5 seconds
Maximum Penalty: +200% cooldown (recycle time x3)
Penalty: +100% cooldown per PPC above limit, +200% cooldown per Gauss Rifle above limit

Group #2: Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser, ER Large Laser
Limit: 4 within 0.5 seconds
Maximum Penalty: +100% cooldown (double recycle time)
Penalty: +50% per laser above 4

Group #3: Medium Laser, Medium Pulse Laser
Limit: 6 within 0.5 seconds
Maximum Penalty: +150% cooldown (recycle time x2.5)
Penalty: +50% per laser above 6

Group #4: Small Laser, Small Pulse Laser
Limit: 8 within 0.5 seconds
Maximum Penalty: +100% cooldown (double recycle)
Penalty: +50% per laser above 8

Group #5: SRMs, SSRMs
Limit: 12 total missiles in 0.5 seconds
Maximum Penalty: +150% cooldown (recycle time x2.5)
Penalty: +50% per 2 total missiles above 12

Group #6: LRMs
Limit: 45 total missiles within 0.5 seconds
Maximum Penalty: +100% cooldown (double recycle)
Penalty: +25% per 5 missiles above 45


The cooldown penalty would be applied to all weapons fired of the same type. The effect of this unavoidable penalty is that chain fire or small weapon groups allow for an improved Time-to-Kill compared to Alpha Strikes. Even taking the effect of pinpoint accuracy into account, a 6x PPC Stalker firing in groups of 2 should almost always win against a 6x PPC Stalker firing in larger groups, or using Alpha Strikes. A stock Awesome alternating between its 2 torso PPCs and its 1 arm PPC would be able to maintain a more effective barrage than by firing all 3 together. A dual-Gauss 'Mech would have no problems beyond the limitations of such heavy weapons, but 2x PPC + Gauss would take much longer to destroy a target without using chain fire.

In a contest between chain fire and Alpha Strikes, it would generally be possible for the chain firing 'Mech to fire all of its weapons, then torso twist / maneuver / take cover before the Alpha Striking 'Mech makes its second shot. This completely reverses the existing scenario, where the chain firing 'Mech must constantly face the target to compete with Alpha Strikes in DPS, which puts the chain firing 'Mech at a huge disadvantage.

This system would still allow Alpha Strikes to be an effective last resort, as they are in TT, but far less practical for general combat. As a bonus, it can use most of the code already written for the 'Ghost Heat' system (weapons fired together triggering a penalty) and UAC/5 jamming (adding a fixed delay to weapon recycle).

For a fluff basis, it's not difficult to come up with something reasonable. Lasers, PPCs and Gauss Rifles use tons of energy, so recharging them all at once exceeds the ability of the engine to supply power, causing recharge to take longer. Firing too many missiles at once requires a longer wait to reload, to avoid the risk of missiles detonating from residual heat in the launch tubes, and/or exceeds the capacity of the ammo feeds to deliver so many rounds at the same time.

Thoughts?

[Dudeman3k]

much easier fix would be to stop dancing around numbers and just fix the damn convergence issue already. The numbers were NEVER flawed, the way they all made/make contact to needle tip was/is.

Edited by Dudeman3k, 27 August 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[Khobai]

Yep just fix convergence.

Having convoluted, overcomplicated fixes like ghost heat completely contradicts PGI's reasoning for adding 3PV, which was to attempt to make the game more friendly for new players.

[Kitane]

Nerf arm lock

Change it into constraints for arm movement that allow some wiggle room in the center around the hull reticle. Large enough to disrupt convergence but small enough to prevent newbies "losing" the arm reticle and shooting unintentionally to the side.

[Orzorn]

If the point is to make people wait, reducing the heat cap to some lower, fixed number would have done that much better and affected all weapon systems in a much more fair manner. It would encourage a mix of high and low heat weapons as opposed to only high heat weapons.

PGI has responded to this very idea and disapproved, yet the evidence and reasoning always seems flawed.

[Doomstryke]

convergence is not the issue. The issue is that almost everything fire's at the same speed. Make each pin point non laser a different speed and convergence is fixed forever. This works in combination of the ghost heat stuff perfectly.

[Joseph Mallan]

Doomstryke, on 27 August 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

convergence is not the issue. The issue is that almost everything fire's at the same speed. Make each pin point non laser a different speed and convergence is fixed forever. This works in combination of the ghost heat stuff perfectly.

Convergence is indeed the issue. Both my Atlas throw more damage than 2 PPC and a Gauss. But since it doesn't converge on a single pixel, it doesn't elicit rivers of tears.

[Kitane]

Doomstryke, on 27 August 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

convergence is not the issue. The issue is that almost everything fire's at the same speed. Make each pin point non laser a different speed and convergence is fixed forever. This works in combination of the ghost heat stuff perfectly.

Gauss Rifle - 1200 m/s
PPC - 2000 m/s

And these two are the worst offenders.

[Doomstryke]

Kitane, on 27 August 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Gauss Rifle - 1200 m/s
PPC - 2000 m/s

And these two are the worst offenders.

And if you pay attention you see that those speeds are more or less identical when it comes to firing them. If a mech walks sideways and you lead them the projectiles should not both hit. Only the one you actually lead IE ppc's should hit and gauss should miss. If they don't the speeds aren't far enough apart

[MightyMeatShield]

I think OP has an interesting idea.

[Renthrak]

I, too, once lived in the fantasy world where PGI would use convergence to solve MWO's problems. The reality is that they have put convergence so far onto a back burner that it has congealed into a sticky mess that will forever remain stuck to the pan.

Convergence is the way it is now because there are issues synchronizing the convergence state between client and server. The most optimistic response from the devs about convergence suggested that they will begin to try and make it work some undetermined time after launch. As for myself, I would like to see the game work before the FedCom civil war rolls around, so finding an alternative seems prudent.

The point of a cooldown penalty is to directly reduce the DPS of problem builds so that chain fire is a viable alternative to massive Alpha Strikes. Eventually fixing convergence would make the job vastly easier, but I don't think the game can wait that long. For now, this seems like the simplest way to address the problem without having to rework half the game mechanics. As a plus, hopefully it is more palatable to the devs, meaning they might actually consider it.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

OP has a neat idea that has some logic behind it, unlike the dev's ghost heat concept. Mix this with weapons spread (no automatic convergence) and the game would be much better.

[AC]

Dudeman3k, on 27 August 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

much easier fix would be to stop dancing around numbers and just fix the damn convergence issue already. The numbers were NEVER flawed, the way they all made/make contact to needle tip was/is.

That takes the skill out of the game. If I can't hit where I am shooting, we might as well just all roll dice. I still think that fixing the slot system so that people can't make these high alpha builds in the first place would be a better fix. I am not saying take away the ability to mount a Gauss or a PPC or an AC20, but there shouldn't be mechs that can mount 6PPC, Twin A20's, or Gauss 2 ERPPC. If the high damage alphas were brought in line via slot limitations, then we wouldn't have all these issues. I do agree with you that the convoluted fixed like Ghost Heat, and Gauss Delay (in development) are silly and take away from the game. They also make it more difficult for new users.