107 replies to this topic

[Tastian]

Zarakynel, on 27 August 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

I still find it hilarious that 3pv gets dragged into EVERY thread on this forum. Grow up and stop all your stupid entitlement issues. You don't like playing with big stompy robots anymore? Just play the game or don't, no one is holding a gun to any of your heads forcing you to play. It is now a part of the game whether you like it or not, throwing temper tantrums because something has changed doesn't solve {Scrap}. Real warfare is an ever-mutating being, someone gets body armour, the enemy gets armour-piercing bullets. Find your own way to deal with it like everyone else.

I personally don't use 3PV, and never will, and I love when my opponents do so I can see them when they are over the ridge and I don't have a seismic equipped.

This is the crux of the matter; this is the line for some people. I had this exact same attitude when it came to ECM, pay for modules, 6xPPC stalkers, ghost heat, LRMpocalypse, broken HSR, jump snipers, lagshield, lack of CW. Every issue there were whiners and the issues typically resolved themselves. Some of the issues we accepted and moved forward. Some of the issues PGI balanced out a bit. Is 3PV a game breaker? Nope. But it does alter the landscape once again. Some people are able to move on while others get hung up.

So, here is my question for YOU. What will be the deal breaker for YOU. At what point will YOU say 'thats enough'. Other people will then probably tell you to 'stop crying' and 'put your big boy pants on' and 'if you don't like it, don't play'. What does PGI have to do to make YOU lose faith. Lie? Break a deadline? Unbalance the game for good? Turn the game into mech reskinned CoD?

They have left bread crumbs of disappointments for others. But what is next? Their direction and their communicated (and our accepted) vision seem to be two different things.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Rhaythe, on 27 August 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

At least you two are putting up rational arguments about this, and in that light, I appreciate it. Not that I agree, and nor will I stop rolling my eyes at the whining. But at the very least, you made your points in a rational manner.

I know the release is 3 weeks out. But it's still Beta. They're still actively tweaking. Disbanding your clan and having players threaten to quit at this point is just silly. I'm sorry and a little saddened that this simple little feature (which they worked nicely into the universe, I must say) ruined the whole game for you. I still have a freaking blast with it.

Most people complaining about 3PV don't think that particular feature ruined the game. Rather, they are using it as a metonymic example of the larger ongoing problems with PGI's development process and community interaction. They do this because it presents in one compact package all the complaints people have had all along:
1. It goes against long-standing, repeated statements on the intended direction of the game
2. The stated reasons for the change don't line up with what's actually in game (how does it make the game more accessible to new players when it hides the minimap, puts a literal flashing sign over your head, and with some mechs doesn't even let you see your legs?)
3. It's a bandaid over a different problem (the lack of a tutorial)
4. PGI has given no indication that they are still tweaking things. They could have pushed out a tiny patch that moves the camera back so you can see your damn legs when you're in one of the bigger mechs, but they haven't, just like they haven't tested any incremental weapon balance tweaks, or really anything that isn't some sort of giant reworking of behavior a la streaks targetting body parts, LRM pathing overhaul, ghost heat, etc. I'm not even saying all those changes were bad, it's just that PGI has done none of the iteration that's usually the entire point of a beta.

Also, I notice that you acknowledged that rational points were being made then didn't address any of them, in favor of calling people whiners. I like to assume good faith, but that makes you look a tad bit disingenuous.

Edited by Blue Footed Booby, 27 August 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[BarHaid]

Since this thread is so far afield already, let me ask this: Who here has seen their W/L or K/D ratio climb because of 3PV? Who has been suffering because of it? In my own lowly PUG hell, I have seen ZERO effect. What's your anecdote? All I hear is "not gonna use it!", but who here has used it?

Edited by BarHaid, 27 August 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[MischiefSC]

So... that's it? A week after the whole 3PV thing and 3 or 4 months after promises of big things and.... this is it? A week after the response from Russ Bullock? About 3 weeks to launch, the only news in the press about MWO is negative, a segment of the playerbase is upset over the handling of 3PV and many of those who are left have other significant balance concerns and this is the patch?

I've seen sales on frozen veggies at my local supermarket with more build up than this. I hate to come across as insulting but... really? Just this? Really?

I... well, okay. There are times when no response is a complete and well considered response all of its own.

Well said PGI.

[Zarakynel]

Basically, they say it is a beta because they are making drastic changes to the game. People shouldn't sign up for betas and get angry when the company changes something because it didn't mesh with what they were looking for. Personally, I think it shouldn't be officially released until their vision is mostly done, which is what they are saying it is, and if that's the case, a few weapons balances after launch shouldn't be a big issue. We get the major stuff out in beta, then the minor stuff after release, it is how game development works.

[Rhaythe]

Blue Footed Booby, on 27 August 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Also, I notice that you acknowledged that rational points were being made then didn't address any of them, in favor of calling people whiners. I like to assume good faith, but that makes you look a tad bit disingenuous.

I said I disagreed. As I was called out earlier, I am not a clan gamer. So what's the point of me addressing those points?

In my opinion, PGI is catering to the larger audience of gamers interested in a free-to-play game, not the hardcore tournament players that represent a very minor percentage of its population. So speaking as someone who plays a few hours a day after his toddler goes to bed, I see nothing that has unbalanced the game whatsoever.

If you want me to continue to make spitballed comments about clan play that makes you roll your eyes, I can do so.

[Slopey]

@Zarakynel - They don't usually take money for it though.

Or pre-sell something and then radically change the game before they deliver it.

Edited by Slopey, 27 August 2013 - 11:14 AM.

[Zolaz]

Zarakynel, on 27 August 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

I still find it hilarious that 3pv gets dragged into EVERY thread on this forum. Grow up and stop all your stupid entitlement issues. You don't like playing with big stompy robots anymore? Just play the game or don't, no one is holding a gun to any of your heads forcing you to play. It is now a part of the game whether you like it or not, throwing temper tantrums because something has changed doesn't solve {Scrap}. Real warfare is an ever-mutating being, someone gets body armour, the enemy gets armour-piercing bullets. Find your own way to deal with it like everyone else.

I personally don't use 3PV, and never will, and I love when my opponents do so I can see them when they are over the ridge and I don't have a seismic equipped.

White Knight to the Rescue!!!

[Kattspya]

Viper69, on 27 August 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

Then why post? Even as critical as I am about the game I still play once or twice a week. Seriously if your not playing anymore why bother letting your finely tapered opinion plop down on the forum?

Because he can extract more fun from the forums than the game? Who are you to judge?

[Kattspya]

Madd Dawg, on 27 August 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Stop QQ they are still working on the game. You are not part of the company and have no input on how it's run. If you don't like the game move on.

How do you know that, do you have access to test builds? They might have gone on vacation again or maybe some miscommunication means they were all doing yoga instead of coding. You don't know.

[MischiefSC]

BarHaid, on 27 August 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Since this thread is so far afield already, let me ask this: Who here has seen their W/L or K/D ratio climb because of 3PV? Who has been suffering because of it? I my own lowly PUG hell, I have seen ZERO effect. What's your anecdote?

I've been practicing with it quite a bit actually. Can't really have an educated opinion on something if you're not willing to invest effort into educating yourself on it.

Value for assaults is minimal compared to seismic, save for snipers. On my Victor brawlers I use it to get a little more situational awareness when I'm approaching the enemy position for the jump-and-hump.

LRM boats are a whole other matter, being able to stay completely out of LOF and still identify my targets is VERY helpful. For example on Forest Colony you can sit in sniper-proof safety and watch for someone to go water or into a clearing, THEN pop out, target and tag then rain fire. Even more valuable is the loss of disorientation when getting in LRM duels. You know when you're trading LRM fire with another mech? In 3PV you don't suffer from the same blindness that getting LRMed gives you. You can still fully see the orientation of your mech and position of your target. On Frozen City for example my Highlander was trading LRMs with a Stalker. I was in the buildings (south side) he was coming through the middle of the broken dropship. We lit each other up, probably both packing 60 tubes and staggering to avoid ghost heat. He started to back up but was clearly blinded/disoriented by getting hit. He was off target and wasn't actually moving back into cover but since he couldn't see he couldn't tell. I also moved out of his 'tag'. Conversely I could see him clearly and kept my tag on him. I also drifted half-behind cover and took far less damage. I cored him while only taking low to moderate damage.

Sniping assaults/slow heavies it's terribly valuable. Ridge-humping you can see the type and position of your target before you rise as well as who's pointing at you. Corner-leaning there's a trick to it - you move towards the edge then look BACK to shift your 3PV further around the corner. For example if I'm coming up on a corner on my right I look back to my left, swinging my 3PV back to see further around the corner. Trading shots around the rocks on Tourmaline this has proved significant. Takes practice to use though.

Mediums and fast heavies though, that's where the money is. I've taken my 4G hunchie up to almost 2.5 KDR and almost a 2.0 win/loss, up from barely half that on both. The ability to see where the assaults are, the brawlers and snipers, before you get shot is a make or break for a medium. A well designed striker medium is faster and carries almost the same firepower as a heavy but he price is 1/2 the armor. The better situational awareness lets you avoid those sudden, unexpected sniper hits, LRMs and 'walk around a corner into 4 mech' moments that may not kill you right then but leave you so damaged that you're too chewed up to last the fight.

Lights... depends on the goal. Mostly I find it good for scouting. The ability to be completely safe from enemy fire while typing out the composition of the enemy team is invaluable for that - I can spend a full minute or two just counting and identifying enemy mechs and positions and typing it out for my team, absolutely immune to enemy fire. Doesn't matter if they see me - it's good if they do. Drawing 2 or 3 or 4 enemy mechs off to chase my Jenner around while my team takes advantage of the numerical superiority their absence brings is perfect.

Sometimes the 3PV drone draws fire. Not always bad though; on maps with poor visibility (trees on Forest for example) I'm finding people are shooting high or behind when I'm moving thinking that the light is literally directly over my head, which it isn't. Worst case scenario you switch back to 1PV, wait 15 or 20 seconds for their attention to waiver and move on.

I don't fight in 3PV. I pop in and out of it dozens of times in a match. The compass at the top also gives you leg/torso facing information for orientation as well as shows blips for friendly and enemy mechs making up most of what's lost with the minimap being gone. You can also pop back and forth, keeping the 3PVs situational awareness and routinely checking the map.

Most people don't use it because they want to pretend it's not there. They don't want to think of it as useful and since so few people are using it against them they aren't seeing otherwise. As more people take the time to get good at it and people start to see the advantage more and more (when it's used against them) it'll get used more and more. PPC/Gauss snipers were the same way.

[Hexenhammer]

Kattspya, on 27 August 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

How do you know that, do you have access to test builds? They might have gone on vacation again or maybe some miscommunication means they were all doing yoga instead of coding. You don't know.

Last time they went on vacation we got 3PV.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Rhaythe, on 27 August 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

I said I disagreed. As I was called out earlier, I am not a clan gamer. So what's the point of me addressing those points?

In my opinion, PGI is catering to the larger audience of gamers interested in a free-to-play game, not the hardcore tournament players that represent a very minor percentage of its population. So speaking as someone who plays a few hours a day after his toddler goes to bed, I see nothing that has unbalanced the game whatsoever.

If you want me to continue to make spitballed comments about clan play that makes you roll your eyes, I can do so.

You implied people thought 3PV ruined the game. I tried to explain that this wasn't the case, and to make clearer the real reason 3PV gets so much negative attention. You said people were making rational points, but didn't address any of them. Then you replied to me with "I disagree" and said "what's the point of me addressing those points?" Well if you aren't interested in having some kind of discussion why are you bothering to disagree? The stuff about casual and hardcore gamers seems like such a non sequitur that I feel like I have to be missing something.

Edited by Blue Footed Booby, 27 August 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Viper69]

Kattspya, on 27 August 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Because he can extract more fun from the forums than the game? Who are you to judge?

I am me, myself and I, that is who. Whenever you type anything on a forum you are letting yourself be judged its part of the game.

[Sparkymarkyp]

HighlandCoo, on 27 August 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

No you won't because I'm not playing this hunk of junk anymore.

"But I am going to take the time to read the forums and still post........."

ok then....

[Kattspya]

Rhaythe, on 27 August 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

I said I disagreed. As I was called out earlier, I am not a clan gamer. So what's the point of me addressing those points?

In my opinion, PGI is catering to the larger audience of gamers interested in a free-to-play game, not the hardcore tournament players that represent a very minor percentage of its population. So speaking as someone who plays a few hours a day after his toddler goes to bed, I see nothing that has unbalanced the game whatsoever.

If you want me to continue to make spitballed comments about clan play that makes you roll your eyes, I can do so.

By adding ghost heat, not adding a tutorial, not doing anything about trial mechs, nerfing CB so that the grind is horrendous even with a stable full of mechs even if you have premium even if you run hero mechs and have been playing for a year.

Which of those changes are catering to a larger audience of gamers? Maybe we should talk about the horrendous frame rates that put this game in the upper echelons of hardware?

Please tell me what they are actually doing to _attract_ players.

[Malleus011]

Not that it will change anyone's minds in any way, but I see plenty of fast scouts with Blinky active, as well as heavier mechs popping Blinky to peek over the top of the hill in front of them.

I'm also somewhat surprised at the lack of patch today.

Edited by Malleus011, 27 August 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[ImperialParadox]

Zarakynel, on 27 August 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Real warfare is an ever-mutating being, someone gets body armour, the enemy gets armour-piercing bullets. Find your own way to deal with it like everyone else.

Psst...hey dude...get this...MWO is a game. It's well within the ability of the game-makers to ensure that our play experience is fair, and we get to sit at our computers while playing stompy robots and not worry about getting shot by "armour-piercing bullets" and having to learn to "deal with it."

So by your logic, I guess if next patch introduced an "I win" button, which allows whoever to hit it first to instantly win the game, you'd be fine with it? Because, you know, MWO is like real war and it's evolving and stuff and bullets and deal with it.

I'd assume not, or at least I'd hope not, because the dramatic easily illustrates the flaw in the logic of your position. But who knows?

I think it's funny that 3PV is supposed to help the new player, but I, along with pretty much everyone else who talks about it, notes that the first thing new players ask is how to turn it off, and the only people really using it are the competitive players who don't like the feature, but use it anyways because they feel that they have to to counter players on the opposing team using 3PV for information gathering effect. The way 3PV is actually used is contrary to the intended effect, and despite what people think more work went into it other then "lol flip da 3PV switch."

LIke I've said before, I don't mind the way 3PV currently functions, but since it isn't helpful to the new player - which is the supposed goal of the system - I'm imagining a day when they decide to allow radar and all the other turned off functions to work while in 3PV. When that happens, I will mind, because the game will suddenly be very different.

[Kattspya]

Viper69, on 27 August 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

I am me, myself and I, that is who. Whenever you type anything on a forum you are letting yourself be judged its part of the game.

Viper69, on 27 August 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

I am me, myself and I, that is who. Whenever you type anything on a forum you are letting yourself be judged its part of the game.

I might consult you in the future on any endeavors I might consider fun and see if they please you. I'd probably ignore your opinion but it is good to know there are people out there willing to have one.

[Zarakynel]

ImperialParadox, on 27 August 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

So by your logic, I guess if next patch introduced an "I win" button, which allows whoever to hit it first to instantly win the game, you'd be fine with it? Because, you know, MWO is like real war and it's evolving and stuff and bullets and deal with it.

I'd assume not, or at least I'd hope not, because the dramatic easily illustrates the flaw in the logic of your position. But who knows?

Touchè sir.