1105 replies to this topic

[Blackfoot]

I've read every post on every page of this thread.

It seems the vast majority of people are unhappy. (too bad its not the vocal minority or whatever)

I've read a few posts saying things like:

"PGI" is a small company, cut em some slack and be patient, they know what they're doing."

"It's still a BETA!"

"Ermagawd somebody threatened PGI devs! bury them under the jail for that!"

But what's even worse is the vast majority of the responses say things like:

"I'm totally done, goodbye MW."

"I'll still play and see what happens, but no way am I buying a single Mechbay or recommending this game to anybody."

"Well, I usually never post negative things, but......"

And for the people that are responding in this manner, you can bet there are many more players that are thinking/doing the same thing but they aren't going to bother to write a post about it. They'll just fade away like old cowboys.

[Thuzel]

Lucifer Sunsoar, on 28 August 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

[...] Targeting kids with allowances and short attention spans doesn't seem to be a viable marketing strategy, you'll keep them til the next Cod or Battlefield comes out and their mother gives in from the nagging and gets it for their console. [...]

The really scary thing is how all of this comes together. There are two major direction changes coming from PGI right now:

1. 3pv and an increasing number of arcade elements indicate that PGI is actively targeting a younger and more casual audience. They've also expressed interest in console gaming, which further elucidates their "new target demographic". It is literally what you said, "kids with allowances". That's who they're starting to target.

2. A major increase in the grind. There have been at least 2 significant economy nerfs over the last few patches, so PGI is trying to increase content re-use by decreasing progression speed. The numbers speak for themselves, we've seen a 10 to 30% decrease in the rate at which people can acquire new content.

So what's utterly and absolutely horrifying about this is how schizophrenic these two things are. They make no sense at all when considered together. On one hand, PGI is trying to bring in customers with significantly shorter attention spans. On the other, they're decreasing the rate at which customers get new content.

To anyone with a bit of business sense this is insane. New player retention is bad enough as is.

[Ngamok]

Tragos, on 28 August 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Yeah...and have you every played World of Tanks or War thunder? You are BURIED in new stuff in the first few hours. What do you get here? 1 unfinished mech after 25 matches. According to their average time, that means 3.5hours - or 2 hours if you suicide farm.

Just tried a new account myself to see how it was working - and after those matches I was able to buy a dragon and upgrade it slightly. Far from the engine of cause. So...now I have 2 options: Trial Mechs or an unfinished Dragon. Most of the trial mechs suck.

You seriously expect players to stay on this grounds? In War Thunder I had a range of ~21! planes at that time. Granted, a few were similar, but the first "Iconic ones" were there.

Well, at least Star Citizen is beginning to shine and I don't have to waste more money on MWO.

I played 8 matches and have just over 4 million C-Bills. By the time my 25 match cadet bonus ends I'll have 12-13 I guess. Enough to buy a mech and keep playing.

[Deathlike]

Thuzel, on 28 August 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

To anyone with a bit of business sense this is insane. New player retention is bad enough as is.

The thing is about making money... the player has to stay long enough to spend money AND when they spend their money that they feel it was a worthwhile purchase. When people spending premium time are saying that the rewards aren't worth it since it is dependent on how you make out in a match.... well, don't expect a return customer for said service.

The sad thing is... we are living in the era of "instant gratification" and it's not limited to the customers that bought into the direction PGI was selling them.. it's PGI+IGP that wants that money now. That money train genuinely doesn't last forever if you put out a bad product.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 August 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[WildeKarde]

The update didn't really tell us what is coming and when we can expect it really.

UI2.0 needs to be in prior to going live, there's no way they should even consider a complete revamp a UI after launch.

I'm also a bit curious about the 3PV bringing players in. Somehow I can't see people sitting on the fence not playing until they can play in 3PV. My opinion really.

[Ngamok]

Ransack, on 28 August 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

First. You make it so that Asisists pay out more than kills
Then you give rewards up to the disconnect time in order to discourage suicide farming. Now you say


I don't understand the logic.



Do you not see the contradiction?

Did you see him say just go ahead and suicide? No, it happens that from time to time, you'll be the first to die. If you don't want to stick till the end, go ahead and leave and jump into another mech. I like how you doomsayers are calling this something it's not.

[Aym]

Ngamok, on 28 August 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

I played 8 matches and have just over 4 million C-Bills. By the time my 25 match cadet bonus ends I'll have 12-13 I guess. Enough to buy a mech and keep playing.

The cadet bonus isn't linear. It's larger at the beginning and smaller at the end. Ironically like PGI's vision for MWO...

[Roheryn]

Ngamok, on 28 August 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

I played 8 matches and have just over 4 million C-Bills. By the time my 25 match cadet bonus ends I'll have 12-13 I guess. Enough to buy a mech and keep playing.

I don't think you understand how that works...it is not a flat curve. Unless you are combining a hero/champion mech and premium time with your cadet bonus you will end up around 8-9 million.

Also as soon as that bonus is over, that is when the grind starts.

I am of the opinion the only reason the cadet bonus is in the game is to hide the actual length of the grind from new players.

Edited by Roheryn, 28 August 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[FactorlanP]

If they go live without a Tutorial in place and working...

Magic 8 Ball says, "Outlook not so good".

[WarHippy]

InnerSphereNews, on 27 August 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Economics

As for the economics, we’ve heard some talk about the reduction in C-Bill rewards. As previous replies to the community in the latest ATD have stated, we needed to rein in some of the rewards a bit as they had grown beyond our original thresholds by about 16%. This is normal and common as a game evolves and players become more efficient. The addition of 12v12 also required a tuning pass to lower the earning by around 13% to account for an additional 8 players on the battlefield. The future vision for CB and XP rewards includes a more granular, role based approach currently in design and development. These expanded earnings will reward players directly for performing specific roles, allowing them to distinguish themselves.

Some economic math from our telemetry data:

• Average match time is 8.4 minutes.
  
• Average CB/match is 79,069.
  
• Average CB/hour is 564,778 if you only have 1 BattleMech to use.
  
• New players can earn 7,981,686 in cadet bonuses during their first 3.5 hours in addition to between 1-3 million in regular game earnings.

[color=#CCCCCC]It’s important to note that new or inexperienced players will be below this average, while experienced or veteran players will be above this. Player’s with premium time and/or a Hero Mech can expect to better still. New players can earn enough money to buy several light or medium Mechs with just their cadet bonus, or can opt to buy 1 or 2 heavies, or 1 assault. In fact a new player can buy their very first Mech within just a handful of matches, begin upgrading and acquiring new permanent equipment for future Mechs.[/color]



If players so wish, they can even increase C-Bill earnings substantially by exiting matches if they are destroyed early, and jumping into a new one.

For example:

If your Mech is destroyed to a roaming band of Jenners early on, you can jump out of that match and into a new one right away – potentially doubling your C-Bills to 1.2 million per hour! This cuts down your time to purchase new Mechs and equipment.

Like game balance, we are constantly evaluating the economic environment and will continue to make small tweaks to keep the economics balanced.

I'm going to be generous and say matches are 8min, average per match income is 80k, and average hourly is 600k. Looking at these numbers vs the price of mechs/equipment in the game is painful to even think about, but have you thought about the Clans at all?
Base clan mechs are 3x the price of IS mechs. That roughly 48.916 Hours to earn enough for a base Dire Wolf compared to roughly 16 hours for a stock Atlas.

Dire Wolf - 100T - 29,350,000 C-Bills - 48.916 Hours
Mad Cat - 75T - 24,233,124 C-Bills - 40.388 Hours
Stormcrow - 55T - 14,771,112 C-Bills - 24.618 Hours
Shadow Cat - 45T - 11,785,510 C-Bills - 19.642 Hours
Dasher - 20T - 4,208,800 C-Bills - 7.014 Hours

Does that really seem reasonable at all?

[Deathlike]

Roheryn, on 28 August 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Also as soon as that bonus is over, that is when the grind starts.

It is sad but true. More likely that the real grind is effectively getting the same amount of c-bill as you did for the total cadet bonus (8 million) to optimize just the mech you bought.

Quote

I am of the opinion the only reason the cadet bonus is in the game is to hide the actual length of the grind from new players.

I don't think it's intentional, but the unintended side effect of that behavior is that the newbie keeps expecting that payout... as the game doesn't tell you how many more matches you have left to collect the rest of the bonus.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 August 2013 - 09:21 AM.

[Thuzel]

Deathlike, on 28 August 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

The thing is about making money... the player has to stay long enough to spend money AND when they spend their money that they feel it was a worthwhile purchase. When people spending premium time are saying that the rewards aren't worth it since it is dependent on how you make out in a match.... well, don't expect a return customer for said service.

That's exactly what I've seen. New players don't stick around long enough to invest in the game unless they have significant prior experience with BT/MW or are older and have much longer attention spans.

I've introduced a couple of people to MWO, and here's what happens. They pick a trial mech (they might try one or two) and then play that mech for 10 to 15 matches while they learn the game. They then go out and use their cadet bonus to buy the mech they piloted. After that, the cadet bonus is gone and they start to notice how slowly they earn c-bills. They may even go check out the price of some XL engines or assault mechs.

They put two and two together, and then they're gone. They don't generally log in again.

In one case, a guy bought some premium time but was pretty shocked when he saw how little that helped. He hasn't really played since then either.

[Mechteric]

Roheryn, on 28 August 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

I am of the opinion the only reason the cadet bonus is in the game is to hide the actual length of the grind from new players.

Its actually there to get around not being able to give new players some free mechs to start off. Instead making them use those awful trials. I really hope their UI2.0 scraps this mechanic and instead has some kind of rental program, that way people can get into their mech of choice and begin customizing well before earning the X millions of CBIlls for it. For instance the F2P game Blacklight does this and as long as you played a few matches a day you could keep renting that gun and scope and stock every day, and eventually save up enough to buy it outright. This is what MWO should go for.

[Riptor]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 28 August 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

Nope. Go lose in the realworld. you dont get paid at all.

lucky losses even pay imho.

Do you have any idea how much money football/soccer/basketball players make even if they loose?

You really have no idea about the real sports world it seems.

[C E Dwyer]

Like a few others believe, I think that developement is extremely slow, because this game is being changed so that console and PC player will be in the same community..

Its good to see PGI and IGP carrying on the tradition, that Fasa started when this was just a box set using others interlectual property, to kick start their wallet.

[Deathlike]

Thuzel, on 28 August 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

[/size]

That's exactly what I've seen. New players don't stick around long enough to invest in the game unless they have significant prior experience with BT/MW or are older and have much longer attention spans.

I've introduced a couple of people to MWO, and here's what happens. They pick a trial mech (they might try one or two) and then play that mech for 10 to 15 matches while they learn the game. They then go out and use their cadet bonus to buy the mech they piloted. After that, the cadet bonus is gone and they start to notice how slowly they earn c-bills. They may even go check out the price of some XL engines or assault mechs.

They put two and two together, and then they're gone. They don't generally log in again.

In one case, a guy bought some premium time but was pretty shocked when he saw how little that helped. He hasn't really played since then either.

The worst part about this.. all newbies in trial mechs (outside the fact that there is no tutorial to help them) are thrown with the wolves. If you understand how the MM works (most don't), they are usually thrown in with vets, with reasonably better built configs and are expected to "be taken along for the ride" while they grind out their first 25 matches. I'm not sure if this is the best "trial by fire" mechanic ever designed... even in MW3/MW4 you had ways to practice outside of the multiplayer enviornment... in this game, you have very limited options from that point of playing a trial mech.

Being in a trial mech is the closest thing to a newbie death sentence. Your contribution to the match at best is being cannon fodder, and if you are able to get through the 25-match pain... you may be pissed/disappointed that even after you get your first mech that it is another grind to make it less painful.

The learning curve in MWO is totally unforgiving. If you make it far enough to get your 3rd mech/variant... you are probably going to hang around... and the number of people that fit into that category is generally not the demographic PGI is looking for.

Too bad that grind is that much worse than it used to be.

[Franchi]

On the subject of trial mech new player experience lets not forget that such "awesome great players" as NGNG had to FAKE playing trial mechs by playing owned mechs to make them look viable.

That measn experienced paid shills in a four man can't even make trial mechs viable.

And that's hilarious

Edited by Franchi, 28 August 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Ransack]

Ngamok, on 28 August 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Did you see him say just go ahead and suicide? No, it happens that from time to time, you'll be the first to die. If you don't want to stick till the end, go ahead and leave and jump into another mech. I like how you doomsayers are calling this something it's not.

I've never heard of a gun dealer telling someone to go ahead and shoot someone. Yet it happens
I've doubt that car dealers tell people to street race. Yet it happens.


Bottom line is that people WILL abuse anything that they can. I'm not crying doom of any sort. I am saying that one statement contradicts the other one. If you don't feel as they do, that's fine with me. I wasn't trying to convince you of anything anyway.

Now please stop quoting me.

[aniviron]

CapperDeluxe, on 28 August 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Its actually there to get around not being able to give new players some free mechs to start off. Instead making them use those awful trials. I really hope their UI2.0 scraps this mechanic and instead has some kind of rental program, that way people can get into their mech of choice and begin customizing well before earning the X millions of CBIlls for it. For instance the F2P game Blacklight does this and as long as you played a few matches a day you could keep renting that gun and scope and stock every day, and eventually save up enough to buy it outright. This is what MWO should go for.

As mediocre and generic of a game as Blacklight was, I think you're right about the monetization system. This game has way way waaaaaaaaay too steep of a risk curve, especially if you're new. You play some low-Elo matches, and think, "Hey, this Awesome-8V is alright." But 20 matches later, you come to the realization that you're being gimped by a terrible mech, and you've sunk 10 million cbills into it, potentially as much as 20 if you've done much customization. What's a mechwarrior to do? Grind another 20 hours to get one of the three variants of another assault? Sell the bad mech for half of what they got it for, effectively wasting ten hours?

Any new player who doesn't check the forums is probably going to have a bad first few mechs. This is doubly true when you put customization into play; I can't tell you how many new players have posted, "Is this build okay?" and they have loaded up with ferro fibrous, single heatsinks, flamers, and an AMS with four tons of ammo. They're the lucky ones; they were told what to avoid before spending money, or at least got some good suggestions for how to remedy their disaster. But given that there aren't one million of these posts but there are one million registered players, the vast majority of people go buy a mech and make an abomination, and have no fun losing.

So yeah, I think a rental program works great. It would let people try things out, figure out what they want, and then spend money on it. And even better, I can tell you first-hand that the system works very well for player retention. When you rent some gear, even if it's relatively cheap, you want to play as much as you can while you have it, to get the most value out of your rental. And while you're renting, you find things you really like, which makes you want to save up to buy the things that really matter to you- even if they're a bad deal. It's the same reason people like owning homes when renting apartments makes more long-term financial sense; people love to own things, to know that the thing they have is their own. And they'll pay a lot for that privilege.

[Igorius]

Thuzel, on 28 August 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

[/size]

That's exactly what I've seen. New players don't stick around long enough to invest in the game unless they have significant prior experience with BT/MW or are older and have much longer attention spans.

I've introduced a couple of people to MWO, and here's what happens. They pick a trial mech (they might try one or two) and then play that mech for 10 to 15 matches while they learn the game. They then go out and use their cadet bonus to buy the mech they piloted. After that, the cadet bonus is gone and they start to notice how slowly they earn c-bills. They may even go check out the price of some XL engines or assault mechs.

They put two and two together, and then they're gone. They don't generally log in again.

In one case, a guy bought some premium time but was pretty shocked when he saw how little that helped. He hasn't really played since then either.

That's basically my story as well. It's been almost embarrassing watching MechWarrior fans who I've told about the game, then helped guide them through a few matches, turn around and fade away from it. These aren't the old grognard style MechWarrior fans either, they're gamers first and foremost. They loved the idea of playing MechWarrior together, and had a fun little "unit" set up that we all took part in.

That was months ago, and I can't get them to even consider coming back. Even the people I've met playing the game during closed beta have left, moving on to other games that, to quote one of them, "don't force you to suck the grind so hard."

Honestly, of all the things going on right now, this is the one issue in particular that makes me very nervous. I WANT this game to succeed, but I'm no white knight. I'm a realist first, and an optimist second. This repetitive and painful grind will be what drives away players in the end, rather than any perceived conflict within the community.