290 replies to this topic

[grimzod]

Just FYI an actuator IS a bundle of myomer = hip, hand , foot, shoulder

And

When a mech is in a + or - gravity environment the mechs systems are adjustable so that the pilot doesn't stress it to destruction.

Edited by grimzod, 17 June 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Full Metal Monte]

Artifice, on 17 June 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

p.s. Don't get me started on the max range for a freaking millenium-th generation Gauss Rifle or rail gun. Currently 3.5 tonnes gets you 6ft/8m accuracy. Six Feet over Eight Miles!

Just to be argumentative...that's a fixed (and freaking way calibrated) shooter and a fixed target. Not a moving shooter platform vs. a moving target. I can look at Jupiter on my home telescope. But not at an airplane from he back of my moving truck.

Edit: the anti-argument is that current tanks have pretty damn good barrel stabilization systems to shoot while moving.

Edited by Full Metal Monte, 17 June 2012 - 11:01 PM.

[Ishtar]

proof that atlas can walk!

[under cover]

Ton or Tonne?

[cinco]

see, what happened was, the details of battletech, such as mech dimension, weight, etc were thought up by people in the 70s and 80s who literally didn't understand anything.

[Ishtar]

you do understand this is scifi/fantasy?

[Tearalum]

GrilledSlug, on 17 June 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Ton or Tonne?

Ton, or Tonne, is the same (= 1000 kilograms) but "Ton" is the abbrevation or scandinavian term, while "Tonne" is used in english speaking countries.

Ton = Kiloton
Tonne = Ton

Edited by Tearalum, 17 June 2012 - 11:36 PM.

[UnLimiTeD]

There was a similar discussion, though from a different origin, here.

Ultimately, the whole concept of a Mech is way more proposterous than late WW2 german tanks.
Its a huge target, massively cost-inefficient, requires a relevant part of it's internal systems just to not topple over, and magically weighting less than it should is the least of it's realism problems.
It is often taxing for me, but it's all about keeping up the suspension of disbelief. It won't work that way, but shoo.
I like the gameplay.

If you want, you can abstract it in your mind and assume the mech's made from plastic (certainly wouldn't make a difference against energy weapons^^) and actually 2.5 times heavier.
It would be consistent in the end....

[zudukai]

lol inb4lock

diamonds are pretty cool, and from what i know, not very heavy, dust is pretty light isn't it? current steel compared to spider silk is laughable, well what if we advance metallurgy a thousand and more years? think they would learn a thing or two along the way?

they describe armor being millimeters thin, i actually see this being possible, however we are no where near close to anything even remotely similar today,


an atlas weighs 100 tonnes because it does, i am glad it's not lighter!

[Deathz Jester]

[Steffenximus]

If the Mechs would be made from steel, they would shatter at the first heat based fire they took. No, they are made from a special alloy that obviously is much lighter and stronger, not so hard to picture it should be, in the year 3000+.

[Risky]

Skylarr, on 13 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus was a German World War II super-heavy tank completed in late 1944. It is the heaviest fully enclosed armoured fighting vehicle ever built. Only two hulls and one turret were completed before the testing grounds were captured by the advancing Soviet forces.

Two whole tanks were made. However, one of them was scuttled and the turret destroyed, the other saw actual combat but its turret was blow off, however it did survive. The Russians combined the body of the scuttled one with the turret of the destroyed one and it currently sits in a Museum in Russia.

[Charles Martel]

Kartr, on 13 June 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Actually he's not right, there is no possible way for a "BattleTech Ton" to be a metric ton. If this were the case then the Atlas would be less dense than water and be unable to submerge, possibly not even go more than waist deep in the water. Its a convenient scale to design and classify 'Mechs around not an actual measure of mass or weight.

Actually, it's been mentioned in TT that normally mechs are not totally sealed, only their cockpits are. So an Atlas full of water minus the cockpit would certainly submerge.

[ZeroKel]

Great discussion. This is SciFi, speculation is part of the fun.

1. Why is the assault mechs limited to 100t? Could they weigh so little?
I agree that Mech are more along the lines of airplanes than tanks. I believe that is made obvious base on the how interchangeable their components are in the Battletech universe. The reasoning behind their weight limit is obvious. LOGISTICS. All mech are designed to be transportable between planets, I don't care how advanced the tech is in 3049... Moving many tons of anything into space is hard, the aerospace transport would have limits on mass it can safely carry and maneuver with. Ever heard of the Sheridan Light Tank? Design to be air mobile, like mechs.

2. Will it sink in water?
Of course, if it leaks, which I suspect they all do, even purpose built underwater designs. I agree with the earlier statement only the cockpit needs to be sealed. The novels describe mechs wading into water to flush out heat. By the way modern tanks can float. Many tanks such as the Sherman in WWII were seal and propellers added to allow them to be fully amphibious under the right conditions. Ships are far heavier than these theoretical mechs and they float, all about water displacement.

3. Heatsink on the exterior of mechs?
Highly unlikely. You have to punch through armor to get to it. Likely behind some sort of armored baffling like modern tank radiators. Don't forget the mech's life blood, coolant ties together internally all the heatsinks and heat generating equipment together, even the pilot.

4. Materials?
I read about amazing alloys and material available today in labs, that would make about 65% of this possible. From materials built at the atomic level to ultra light material that can protect against a blowtorch with only millimeters of coverage.

Virtually anything you can imagine is only a mater of time before someone, somewhere will figures out to make it better.

Edited by ZeroKel, 18 June 2012 - 01:32 AM.

[Moodysea]

At OP. Mechs aren't real. They are pretend and made up.

[RedDragon]

ZeroKel, on 18 June 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Great discussion. This is SciFi, speculation is part of the fun.

1. Why is the assault mechs limited to 100t? Could they weigh so little?
I agree that Mech are more along the lines of airplanes than tanks. I believe that is made obvious base on the how interchangeable their components are in the Battletech universe. The reasoning behind their weight limit is obvious. LOGISTICS. All mech are designed to be transportable between planets, I don't care how advanced the tech is in 3049... Moving many tons of anything into space is hard, the aerospace transport would have limits on mass it can safely carry and maneuver with. Ever heard of the Sheridan Light Tank? Design to be air mobile, like mechs.

2. Will it sink in water?
Of course, if it leaks, which I suspect they all do, even purpose built underwater designs. I agree with the earlier statement only the cockpit needs to be sealed. The novels describe mechs wading into water to flush out heat. By the way modern tanks can float. Many tanks such as the Sherman in WWII were seal and propellers added to allow them to be fully amphibious under the right conditions. Ships are far heavier than these theoretical mechs and they float, all about water displacement.

3. Heatsink on the exterior of mechs?
Highly unlikely. You have to punch through armor to get to it. Likely behind some sort of armored baffling like modern tank radiators. Don't forget the mech's life blood, coolant ties together internally all the heatsinks and heat generating equipment together, even the pilot.

4. Materials?
I read about amazing alloys and material available today in labs, that would make about 65% of this possible. From materials built at the atomic level to ultra light material that can protect against a blowtorch with only millimeters of coverage.

Virtually anything you can imagine is only a mater of time before someone, somewhere will figures out to make it better.

Could we please (pretty please!) stop finding ways around a problem that isn't even there in the first place?
Mechs don't float! That is an assumption based on bad math, as we showed on the last pages. So a mech doesn't need to "leak" just to get under water. A mech needs to be sealed to function properly, not only underwater, but also in vacuum. That's why there are actual rules for hull breaches under water and in space.

Total Warfare p. 121 said:

Whenever an underwater unit takes a
hit that infl icts damage, the controlling player rolls 2D6. On a
result of 10 or greater, the unit’s hull has been breached. The
unit has lost integrity in that location, and it fi lls with water.
Only make this roll for fl ooding at the moment an underwater
unit takes damage, not for a damaged unit that later enters
the water. If all of a location’s armor is destroyed (whether this
occurred before the unit entered the water hex or while it is
submerged), that location is automatically breached.

[neodym]

Boymonkey, on 13 June 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Now I can't find any info on how tall an Atlas is but looking at the videos etc I reckon they are pretty big so it got me thinking that an atlas should weigh more than 100 tons, I mean if you look at tanks for example a Tiger that weighs 56 tons and would look small next to a Atlas so surely they should weigh much much more.
Sorry for the boring topic it's just grating on my mind Oh and typing this passes a few min's to get me closer to playing

dude,seriously,any real world racional logic + mechwarrior..... just no man,ofcourse it would weight more but mechwarrior is about as
realistic like orcs and elfs... now theres these hardcore battletech fans that would write ten pages reasoning why it weights just 100 ton
but fact is,none of these things exist,its all crazy unrealistic sci fi flavored fantasy story for adults

[Xyph3r]

i think you´re doing the math a little wrong. it seems you all assume the whole volume of the Mechs to be SOLID Material, which is not the case. most of the components (which, by the way, consist of multiple materials) have a foam structure. considering most of them are made in Zero-g conditions, they dont even need to contain air (or at least not with a whole atmosphere pressure) if the walls of the honeycomb/foam structures are only milli- or nanometers thick, that would take up far less weight than solid material of the same volume.
This, of course, wouldn´t solve the density problem, but i think the weight could be (at least close to) possible. if a Mech is 14m high, thats only a little more than an M1A1 is long.

but still, although it´s an interesting topic to discuss:
as long as it´s fun, to hell with physics, because it´s BIG STOMPY ROBOTS!

[Havyek]

Ishtar, on 17 June 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

proof that atlas can walk!

They can also climb buildings!


We should have that too!!!

[LackofCertainty]

In order to explain this, I have a simple solution:

Step 1:
Take an M1 Abram's tank.
~60 tonnes
-room for 4
dimensions are 9.77m x 3.66m x 2.44m

Step 2, stand it up vertically, and increase it's height and weight by 50% (actually closer to 40% height, but we're being generous)
~90 tonnes
-Room for 4
~15m tall x 3.66m x 2.44m

Step 3: bulk it up a bit (+20% twice for width/depth we'll say)
~130 tonnes(90+18+22)
-Room for 4
~15m tall x ~4m wide x ~3m deep

Step 4: Remove extra crew capacity (we'll say that pulling out 3 people = pulling out a dual cockpit)
~126 tonnes
-Room for 1 (significant displacement reduction/density increase assuming only sealed bits are reactor/cockpit)
~15m tall x ~4mwide x ~3m deep

Step 4: Remove some weight, because a mech is humanoid, not a box (accounts for space between legs/above shoulders etc and cause atlas ~14m not ~15m we'll say 15%)
~107 tonnes (126-19)
-Room for 1 (significant displacement reduction/density increase assuming only sealed bits are reactor/cockpit)
~15m tall x ~4mwide X ~3m deep (still a bit boxy, but now at least slightly humanoid)

Step 5: 1000 years of tech results in less massive frame [myomer+foam aluminum instead of steel(we'll say 20% reduction, conservatively]
~86 tonnes (107-21)
-Room for 1 (significant displacement reduction/density increase assuming only sealed bits are reactor/cockpit)
~15m tall x ~4mwide X ~3m deep (still a bit boxy, but now at least slightly humanoid)

Step 6: Pft, you're being way too generous. That's a scrawny atlas. (Fine!)
~100 tonnes (86+14 for the hell of it)
-Room for 1 (significant displacement reduction/density increase assuming only sealed bits are reactor/cockpit)
~15m tall x ~4mwide X ~3m deep (still a bit boxy, but now at least slightly humanoid)

Ta dah. I have solved the mystery of the 100 tonne atlas and the atlas that floats like a cork in one fell swoop.

Edit: replaced every "displacement/density reduction" with "displacement reduction/density increase" grumble mutter.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 18 June 2012 - 05:17 AM.