184 replies to this topic

[SuperDude431]

MW4 Fafnir Yes. But TT AS7-S Atlas has it beat. The Fafnir's Heavy Gauss Rifles suck at range. And Fafnir's have problems fireing them and staying upright. AS7-S can just keep it at long range and hammer it. I perfer TT over MW4 so I say no to Fafnir. TT Fafnir sucks.

[SuperDude431]

Tyra, on 14 June 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

1. Agreed. With the caveat there are ways to preserve both if you try hard enough. That's preferable.

2. Not when you consider they left with advanced technology and a lot of production capability. They then developed a society where scientists were highly prized and production and development were protected.

3. We, as a species, forgot how to make concrete for over a thousand years. Now multiply that with 300+ years of constant warfare on global and galactic scales. Post WW2 there were countries that got bombed back 50 years. There are countries today so ravaged by constant warfare they're still technologically in the 20s, with the occasional advanced bit of salvaged tech. (not unlike the inner sphere)

Now keep doing that. Over. And Over. And Over.

Add into that the fact there was a faction deliberately sabotaging development.

Clans Had better tech because the did every thing they could to limit waste. They improved what they had. the IS suffered from technological regression. Something that has happend to us in real history multiple times.

[CCC Dober]

Although it is offtopic, the fact that a whole part of the IS (and some of the brighter heads as well) was extracted out of the Inner Sphere helped Kerensky to rebuild civilisation. Not exactly the high standards as the Star League had, but pretty close. Source claims that resources were rather low in Homeworlds, but you could attribute that also to the available means of exploitation. You may bring material, men and women across the whole galaxy, but the heavy duty mining stuff, refineries and production lines probably won't fit into the average Overlord dropship. So it doesn't really surprise me that they and their descendants (Clans) were great at recycling, they were forced to.

Things like technological advances didn't come easy to the Clans at all. Otherwise they would have left Star League era technology behind in the dust after a while, which they really didn't. They still 'venerate' that era like it was the golden times and it is rather telling that they developed 'Omni' technology that primarily allowed Mechs to easily exchange parts with other Mechs, rather than pushing the whole concept to the limit or expand on it. Otherwise you'd see them forego all bidding and roll around in Omni Mechs with advanced weapons, rather than force their garrisons into second rate scrap heaps and have their best warriors 'undercut' each other like cheap merchants on a bazaar. Yep, even the Clans got scrap tech rolling, but it has been preserved better than the average IS rubble pile

P.S. I am aware that I am speaking heresy here, but the Clans are not as dignified as they always portray themselves.

Edited by CCC Dober, 14 June 2012 - 02:31 AM.

[CW Grayson]

Fafnir of course. I like the Atlas, too, but comparing these two is like comparing an Leopard II against an Abrahams (or any other Tank today).
Around 20 decades of evolution puts the Fafnir way beyond, just see the hardpoints; i.e. possible loadouts. Ballistic-wise the Fafnir can load ahellova weapons and has a nasty space for energy-weps, too.
Even if it's stock-loadout: the Hgauss might be "only"mid-range, but when the map is not flat-square you're doomed. Not that the lrm20 from the Atlas can do that much to the Fafnir till it's in range.

Edited by CW Grayson, 14 June 2012 - 02:26 AM.

[Hawks]

Tyra, on 14 June 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

3. We, as a species, forgot how to make concrete for over a thousand years. Now multiply that with 300+ years of constant warfare on global and galactic scales. Post WW2 there were countries that got bombed back 50 years. There are countries today so ravaged by constant warfare they're still technologically in the 20s, with the occasional advanced bit of salvaged tech. (not unlike the inner sphere)

Now keep doing that. Over. And Over. And Over.

Add into that the fact there was a faction deliberately sabotaging development.

Double-glazed glass was invented by the Ancient Romans...and was then forgotten about, becoming 'lostech' until the 1930s (!).

Other examples of real-life 'lostech':

http://www.toptenz.n...echnologies.php

[Steffenximus]

Atlas isn't faster than Fafnir. And if it's gonna be anything like any MW game before, even the heaviest mech will be immune to flanking, again THIS ISN'T WOT !

[Thorn Hallis]

I'm a bit amused seeing the Fafnir being labeled as "sniper".

[LordDeathStrike]

Ian Marcus Kain, on 14 June 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

Clans Had better tech because the did every thing they could to limit waste. They improved what they had. the IS suffered from technological regression. Something that has happend to us in real history multiple times.

if not for the black plague and such we would now be flying around in space in pyramids using stargates to travel the galaxy in seconds! maybe. rule of 42 is fickle like that.

[CCC Dober]

@Thorn
4 LG + 2 ERPPC would suggest that or 8 Mini Gauss. Looks like you gotta catch up on that particular Mech and its potential.

Edited by CCC Dober, 14 June 2012 - 03:32 AM.

[Ilfi]

The Fafnir looks like an abomination. It's a walking target. You have to really mess up to miss that hulking center mass.

The Atlas has its weaknesses (namely the easy-to-hit cockpit), but it's sadly still more well-rounded than a Faffy.

[Stormeris]

Xanthos D:

[Brother Justin Isadore Seville]

I think the Atlas is much more flexible than the Fafnir. Just the Altlas frame is manueverable enough to make use of a variety of weapons that the fafnir could never hope to make good use. That flexibility makes the classic Atlas better in my opinion.

Edited by Brother Justin Isadore Seville, 14 June 2012 - 03:54 AM.

[Nash]

Alright if there is only the choice between a Fafnir and an Atlas i would first ask at which terrain the fight would be.

As soon as i have the answer I would decide.

Sure the Fafnir is good at range but the Atlas is a solid assault mech. So any good pilot could fight with each mech and give you a really bad headache. btw...does anyone want to confront an assault mech, be it a Fafnir or an Atlas on open terrain where it might "snipe" at you?

[Schwarzer Adler]

gamesguy, on 13 June 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Gameplay should NEVER be sacrificed for the sake of backstory. This is nonsense. Production facilities are not hubs of scientific knowledge, blowing up a bunch of assembly line workers is not going to cause scientific progress to reverse itself.

Y'know, they used weapons of mass destructions like atomic bombs to destroy space stations, cities or even entire planetary populations. And not just a few assembly lines.

You think that's crap? Well maybe. But we are talking about the actions of politicians here.

And for the Clans, there was no gameplay sacrificed. They have better equipment, but the have a lot of harsh rules of engagement to follow. Including a damn strict code of conduct.

[Victor Morson]

This isn't even a contest if you're talking TT variants. The Fafnir just obliterates the lackluster Atlas in every way.

[Aegic]

I like the Fafnir, although I like other assaults much much more.

[gamesguy]

Tyra, on 14 June 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

2. Not when you consider they left with advanced technology and a lot of production capability. They then developed a society where scientists were highly prized and production and development were protected.

You can't "leave" with production capability, those tend to be fixed infrastructure.

And the clans in no way highly prize science. Not to mention they nearly annihilated themselves before they got the ritualized combat rules down.

Quote

3. We, as a species, forgot how to make concrete for over a thousand years. Now multiply that with 300+ years of constant warfare on global and galactic scales. Post WW2 there were countries that got bombed back 50 years. There are countries today so ravaged by constant warfare they're still technologically in the 20s, with the occasional advanced bit of salvaged tech. (not unlike the inner sphere)

Now keep doing that. Over. And Over. And Over.

Nonsense, we never forgot how to make concrete.

There were no countries that "got bombed back 50 years" in WWII, none, zero. Germany's industrial output peaked in late 1944 at the height of the strategic bombing campaign. The USSR had to pack up and move all their industry east of the urals but that didn't stop them from producing a truly ridiculous number of tanks.

There are no countries today that have regressed to 20s tech and rely on salvage. This is sheer nonsense.

Quote

Add into that the fact there was a faction deliberately sabotaging development.

Countries were also doing that to each other during WWII, still didn't stop technological progress.

Edited by gamesguy, 14 June 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[Leanansidhe]

There isent enough armor in the galaxy to properly armor the Fafnirs gigantic torso. Anybody even shoots in your general direction its hitting your torso

[gamesguy]

Tincan Nightmare, on 14 June 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Well how the clans fight wars are different then how the IS fights wars, basically its all about duels, wether between two warriors or two clusters, with the victor getting the predetermined prize. If Clan Wolf wants a factory from Clan Snow Raven, they send a force over to issue a challenge, the place and time are set, and both sides declare what troops and equipment they are bringing. Yah when the SLDF got to the clan worlds fighting did breakout amongst some of the troops, but it was on a much smaller scale and only lasted for a comparatively short time (at least compared to the succession wars.) In the IS, nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons were being used widely during the first succession war, as well as orbital bombardment by warships. Each nation targeted important worlds that possessed the industrial infrastructure to produce warships and mechs, usually nuking the plants out of existence. As far as the scientific community, Comstar used the wars as cover for an assassination plot specifically targeting engineers and scientists. Now I'm not saying that could realistically happen, since were talking about hundreds of worlds, but for suspension of disbelief its a least a 'decent' excuse .

Though honestly I just want to blow things up with my giant mech, I could care less about the 'why' of everything .

Wrong, Kerensky's SLDF almost completely destroyed themselves before they invented the ritualized combat system. In fact the SLDF suffered far greater destruction in their initial civil war than the IS did during all four succession wars.

Schwarzer Adler, on 14 June 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

Y'know, they used weapons of mass destructions like atomic bombs to destroy space stations, cities or even entire planetary populations. And not just a few assembly lines.

You think that's crap? Well maybe. But we are talking about the actions of politicians here.

As a percentage of the population not that many people died during the first two succession wars. I bet Germany and Russia proportionally lost more people during WWII than the successor states did.

Btech isn't Fallout, they didn't kill 99% of the human population.

Quote

And for the Clans, there was no gameplay sacrificed. They have better equipment, but the have a lot of harsh rules of engagement to follow. Including a damn strict code of conduct.

Except no player actually followed those rules, making them insanely overpowered.

Edited by gamesguy, 14 June 2012 - 06:50 AM.

[Broken Moriarty]

Going from memory so bear with me, the Clans were given their uber-tech by the original TT game developers despite the original plan of having the Clans using the SLDF-level tech. However, in play-testing they kept getting simply swamped by IS units using sheer numbers to make up the tech gap. For some reason, FASA decided to double-down on the tech gap (rumors included wanting a faster paced game overall) giving the Clans a massive tech advantage to counter the IS's hugely superior number of mechs/troops.

Now, the idea that the Clans should have developed such uber-tech is simply silly. They started with a mere 2 million soldiers and 4 million civilians before they decided to have their own little succession war in the middle of nowhere on their resource starved planets. Considering that today Los Angeles is considered a "megacity" with a population of 18 million and even Paris is considered one of around 10 million souls, the idea that Clan society would develop a tech-base that utterly curbstomps the rest of humanity and enough of an industrial base and population to fight the entire rest of the human race spread across 1200+ star systems is laughable. The writing and ideas that created the Clans was laughably bad from almost the very beginning, with their numbers and tech being some of the worst offenders, but they do make some pretty mechs at least.