184 replies to this topic

[Alexios]

Hi

In all the years playing mw4 especially against very strong ai opponents, the compination of the ppcs, long range rockets and the gauss rifle from the Atlas can damage the fafnir so badly that when he reaches to 600 meters he wont have many shots with his heavy gauss rifles
on wide range maps the Atlas has the upper hand as long as the fafnir is limited to his range

[CCC Dober]

@Moriarty
It is equally laughable that the IS could sink that low and seemingly wasn't incapable of recovering, until a member from Comstar stepped forwards to undo the active suppression of technology and knowledge. That was the biggest cockblock IMO. Also, losing means to reproduce technology over centuries of warfare makes sense, somehow. What doesn't make sense is the active, unnoticed and unopposed suppression/destruction of knowledge and technology throughout the Inner Sphere by a single institution, namely Comstar. Plus, they got away with it and the splinter faction (Word of Blake) was allowed to bomb the whole Sphere back to stone age later on. This wannabe dictator called Stefan Amaris totally pales in comparison to that, even though he is given credit for the destruction of the Star League as a whole. The Clans are not even in the same league and I think it's time to come clear with some obvious BS.

Edited by CCC Dober, 14 June 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[Evinthal]

gamesguy, on 13 June 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Gameplay should NEVER be sacrificed for the sake of backstory.



This is nonsense. Production facilities are not hubs of scientific knowledge, blowing up a bunch of assembly line workers is not going to cause scientific progress to reverse itself. And unless Comstar is the Judeo Christian God there is no way it can somehow "steal all the data storage" when there are thousands of worlds with trillions of people.

The IS was in no way bombed back into the stone age. Did 90% of the population die? Not even close. In fact I'd wager less people die as a percentage of the population than the casaulties suffered by the European nations during WW1.

I don't really have a problem with Btech handwaving all this away(especially since giant robot armies are about unrealistic as you can get), but don't try to pretend it's realistic and should have an impact on gameplay. The number one priority for any videogame is that it should be fun. It's not fun when one guy has guns that do twice the damage of yours and has a longer range.

See this is where not knowing how things went from the TT is bad.

It wasn't just that production infrastructure was obliterated. The first and second succession wars saw 'unlimited warfare' i.e. the wanton use of WMDs, compound this with the FACT that ComStar had a strangle hold on the only way to transmit data quickly on an interstellar scale and the fact that they were are a bunch of dicks and conducted major operations such as Operation Holy Shroud where they assassinated scientists on the verge of recovering some form of lostech or even trying to silence mercenary commands that found lostech memory cores.

As far as video games are concerned, Clan Tech being over powered is again laughable. MW4 had clan weapons with way more heat than they should have been. MW3 was probably the best balanced. And in MW2 & MW2:GBL the only tech you had was clan tech. I never had the chance to play MW2: Mercenaries so I can't say how that is.

Also, the weapons didn't do 'twice as much damage' so using blanket statements like that is erroneous.

A clan ER Large Laser only does 2 points more than an Inner Sphere Large Laser. The range profile is similar up until long range, which is where the true advantage is.

A Clan gauss rifle does as much damage as an Inner Sphere gauss rifle does.

A Clan autocannon does as much damage as an inner sphere autocannon.

Ect.

but again, you are using a video game, which is a bad example as MS flubbed on MW4, and since that is the most recent game it is fresh on peoples mind.

gamesguy, on 14 June 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

Except no player actually followed those rules, making them insanely overpowered.

Then that is a power gaming munchkin players fault. Luckily where I play we are gentlemen and actually try and adhere to the spirit of the game and follow the rules, even going as far as to use specific rules for specific clans.

I'm not going to touch any more on this matter as I would rather not see this thread closed, or derailed any more.

On that note: I am a fan of both the Fafnir, and the Atlas. Depends entirely on what I feel like piloting at the time. Though the Atlas with the Heavy Gauss and GECM is beautiful, but so is the Fafnir with two regular gauss rifles.

Edited by Evinthal, 14 June 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Kenaris]

Bourbon, on 13 June 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

I do love me some Lyran mechs

Atlas is a classic so I am going to have to go with it

The Fafnir is a Lyran mech...

[DBDrake]

Dang. I've only played them against eachother in MW4, so this might be higly inacurate, but I would take an Atlas in an open feild or mild hills, and a faffy in an urban area over litteraly anny other mech. You have enough alpha in the faf to one-two hit core most light-medium mechs, a **** tonn of armor, and in an urban area your slow cycling high alpha wepons are pretty much boss.

[Schwarzer Adler]

@gamesguy: I take that bet any time and would win easily.

@Broken Mirarty: The Clans can clone themselves as much warriors as they want to have. And the worst warrios can be demoted to the lower casts of Clan culture. Therefore I wouldn't worry to much about their population growth.

They do have the better military, but that military is indeed pretty small compaired to the forces of the Inner Sphere. That simply means, they are good fighters and conquerers, but have problems at holding the planets they take. This may be one reason for Clan Ghostbear to relocate their entire society into the IS.

[Stormwolf]

Schwarzer Adler, on 14 June 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

@Broken Mirarty: The Clans can clone themselves as much warriors as they want to have. And the worst warrios can be demoted to the lower casts of Clan culture. Therefore I wouldn't worry to much about their population growth.

Clans don't create clones, every trueborn clansman/woman has a unique genetic build.

[Schwarzer Adler]

Right, sorry! They put several DNA samples in vitros, mix them and make about 20 children out of the liquid.

[CCC Dober]

Apart from the Aerospace pilots and Elementals, I don't really think that the Clans produce anything 'superior' just because it is genetically altered. Even so, both castes were soundly beaten by forces of the Inner Sphere that did not hold any genetical advantages and were in fact at a disadvantage. The socalled 'superiority of the Clans' is in fact just a technological advantage that Comstar could reduce to zero/overcome in no time.

[ragnarawk]

as far as the origanal post goes i still got to stick with the atlas for one reason. its got 2 arms with hand actuators. pick up a tree and club the fafnier to death. corse if the fafnier does hit with both heavy gauss rifles in the same spot that might be problematic but i think the atlas can take it. heck knock it on its face and it cant shoot much of anything. looks like it couldant stand up very well if it got knocked over.
my 2 cents

[gamesguy]

Evinthal, on 14 June 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

See this is where not knowing how things went from the TT is bad.

It wasn't just that production infrastructure was obliterated. The first and second succession wars saw 'unlimited warfare' i.e. the wanton use of WMDs, compound this with the FACT that ComStar had a strangle hold on the only way to transmit data quickly on an interstellar scale and the fact that they were are a bunch of dicks and conducted major operations such as Operation Holy Shroud where they assassinated scientists on the verge of recovering some form of lostech or even trying to silence mercenary commands that found lostech memory cores.

The WMDs did not destroy a significant portion of the IS's total population/infrastructure, and it's absolutely laughable that you think killing a couple hundred scientists could somehow reverse scientific progress.

Quote

As far as video games are concerned, Clan Tech being over powered is again laughable. MW4 had clan weapons with way more heat than they should have been. MW3 was probably the best balanced. And in MW2 & MW2:GBL the only tech you had was clan tech. I never had the chance to play MW2: Mercenaries so I can't say how that is.

I see you never played MW4 multiplayer, where every match involved a bunch of jumping clan mechs with long range sniping weapons. The nova cat with 6 CERLLs was very popular as I recall.

Quote

Also, the weapons didn't do 'twice as much damage' so using blanket statements like that is erroneous.

A clan ER Large Laser only does 2 points more than an Inner Sphere Large Laser. The range profile is similar up until long range, which is where the true advantage is.

Absolute nonsense, your bias is showing. Clan tech was absurdly superior in the following categories.

1. LRM with no minimum range and launchers that weigh half as much. I can't even begin to state how absurdly superior CLRMs are compared to regular ones.
2. CERML, which weighs 1 ton, does 7 damage for 5 heat. Compare with IS large laser which weighs 5 tons, generated 8 heat, and does only 8 damage.
3. CLPL which has twice the range of regular LPL and 1 more damage. Its absurd superiority is reflected in the BVs, where the clan version is worth more than twice as many BV as the IS version.
4. Double heat sinks. This combined with the absurd superiority of clan heat intensive weapons made some ridiculously overpowered mechs.
5. Endosteel/XL engines/FF armor. Yet more weight savings for clan mechs. The only one with a real downside are XL engines and this wasn't reflected in the previous MW games.

When you add up all those ridiculous advantages you came up with **** like the Firemoth-D, a 20 ton light mech that has a higher battle value than a stock Atlas.

Quote

A Clan gauss rifle does as much damage as an Inner Sphere gauss rifle does.

A Clan autocannon does as much damage as an inner sphere autocannon.

Ect.

The IS gauss rifle was rediscovered SLDF tech, that's why it wasn't so far behind clan tech.

A clan autocannon does literally twice the damage of an IS autocannon, it's hilarious you would use this example when it fits my argument to a t. A clan ultra AC/20 does twice the damage of a normal AC/20 and weighs 2 tons less.

Quote

Then that is a power gaming munchkin players fault. Luckily where I play we are gentlemen and actually try and adhere to the spirit of the game and follow the rules, even going as far as to use specific rules for specific clans.

Oh bullshit, if the system actually worked we wouldn't have needed the BV system. And you certainly can't balance a video game on some sort of e-honor "gentlemen's agreement".

Schwarzer Adler said:

@gamesguy: I take that bet any time and would win easily.

You're delusional.

Edited by gamesguy, 14 June 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[Schwarzer Adler]

I am delusional? Right.

Well, you're the guy who tries to tell us, the warp engine of the Enterprise doesn't work.

[gamesguy]

Schwarzer Adler, on 14 June 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

I am delusional? Right.

Well, you're the guy who tries to tell us, the warp engine of the Enterprise doesn't work.

You...understand that Star Trek and Battletech are both works of fiction right?

Jesus Christ what is wrong with you people.

[Schwarzer Adler]

And there I was believing you wheren't serious enough in this discussion.

[gamesguy]

Schwarzer Adler, on 14 June 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

And there I was believing you wheren't serious enough in this discussion.

You need to take some more English lessons because your posts aren't even coherent anymore.

[CCC Dober]

gamesguy, on 14 June 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

...
I see you never played MW4 multiplayer, where every match involved a bunch of jumping clan mechs with long range sniping weapons. The nova cat with 6 CERLLs was very popular as I recall.
...

You are referring to the hacked Nova Cat vairant here, sporting Jump Jets and ERLLs, when in fact it could not legally mount JJs ever and was capable of mounting 7, not just 6 ERLLs. So you've just admitted 2 things in one sentence ... Dear sir, I am thoroughly surprised and shocked. /sarcasm

[Schwarzer Adler]

gamesguy, on 14 June 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

You need to take some more English lessons because your posts aren't even coherent anymore.

hehe, sadly true

I was trying to be ironic.

Is "Here I thought, you didn't take this discussion serious enough." any better?

Edited by Schwarzer Adler, 14 June 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[Alexander Caine]

Whats with all the people saying the Fafnir is better at range than the Atlas? That's blatantly untrue...normal gauss outranges Heavy, and Atlas adds ERLLs and LRMs to that.

Fafnir is actually a rubbish design. Even slower than Atlas, poor arcs, main guns that blow it to pieces, **** poor backup weapons.
I'll say that again...SLOWER THAN AN ATLAS, and guns with a shorter range.

Pure crap.

[gamesguy]

CCC Dober, on 14 June 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

You are referring to the hacked Nova Cat vairant here, sporting Jump Jets and ERLLs, when in fact it could not legally mount JJs ever and was capable of mounting 7, not just 6 ERLLs. So you've just admitted 2 things in one sentence ... Dear sir, I am thoroughly surprised and shocked. /sarcasm

Why would knowledge of the hacked variant's existence automatically make me a hacker? You know about it as well, OMG YOU'RE A HACKER!!!!!!11111111

[Evinthal]

gamesguy, on 14 June 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

The WMDs did not destroy a significant portion of the IS's total population/infrastructure, and it's absolutely laughable that you think killing a couple hundred scientists could somehow reverse scientific progress.



I see you never played MW4 multiplayer, where every match involved a bunch of jumping clan mechs with long range sniping weapons. The nova cat with 6 CERLLs was very popular as I recall.



Absolute nonsense, your bias is showing. Clan tech was absurdly superior in the following categories.

1. LRM with no minimum range and launchers that weigh half as much. I can't even begin to state how absurdly superior CLRMs are compared to regular ones.
2. CERML, which weighs 1 ton, does 7 damage for 5 heat. Compare with IS large laser which weighs 5 tons, generated 8 heat, and does only 8 damage.
3. CLPL which has twice the range of regular LPL and 1 more damage. Its absurd superiority is reflected in the BVs, where the clan version is worth more than twice as many BV as the IS version.
4. Double heat sinks. This combined with the absurd superiority of clan heat intensive weapons made some ridiculously overpowered mechs.
5. Endosteel/XL engines/FF armor. Yet more weight savings for clan mechs. The only one with a real downside are XL engines and this wasn't reflected in the previous MW games.

When you add up all those ridiculous advantages you came up with **** like the Firemoth-D, a 20 ton light mech that has a higher battle value than a stock Atlas.



The IS gauss rifle was rediscovered SLDF tech, that's why it wasn't so far behind clan tech.

A clan autocannon does literally twice the damage of an IS autocannon, it's hilarious you would use this example when it fits my argument to a t. A clan ultra AC/20 does twice the damage of a normal AC/20 and weighs 2 tons less.



Oh bullshit, if the system actually worked we wouldn't have needed the BV system. And you certainly can't balance a video game on some sort of e-honor "gentlemen's agreement".



You're delusional.

First you are using THE WORST MW game to draw your conclusions from.

Second you are trying to equate an ultra auto cannon to a standard auto cannon. Fail in a hand basket right there.

An Inner Sphere UAC does as much damage as a clan one. I know that 'omg but teh clans dont haz standard autocannons' and I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you would be logical enough to see that I was comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

EDIT: Inner Sphere can also hot load their LRMs. Problem?

I can see I was wrong now. I apologize most sincerely.

Hate to break this to you buddy, but the system includes the BV system. They are integral to each other. I'd just say that you are sore because you got beat by the clans a couple of times and are now crying foul because you refuse to change tactics and learn how to deal with the Clans. This would be akin to the American Revolutionary forces continuing to stand line to line with the British troops in the revolutionary war, instead of adapting to succeed.

gamesguy, on 14 June 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

You need to take some more English lessons because your posts aren't even coherent anymore.

Attacking someone's spelling or grammar is a bad way to go about trying to win people over to your cause.
Beat that straw man some more. Please. I find it hilarious.

gamesguy, on 14 June 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

You...understand that Star Trek and Battletech are both works of fiction right?

Jesus Christ what is wrong with you people.

You are the one getting bent out of shape over a discussion on the internet. I suggest you look in the mirror and ask yourself that very same question.

I said I am done with this. I would appreciate it if you grew up a slight bit and dropped it too.

I bid you good day sir.

Edited by Evinthal, 14 June 2012 - 12:26 PM.