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Timidity Is A Great Tactic!


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#1 Alistair Winter

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 12:15 AM

This thread is just like the other one, except the OP is shorter and more accurate. And it's not really about the same thing, I just wanted a snappy title.

My point is this:

I dare say timidity is a great tactic, on the individual level. There may be cases where a team working together manages some daring tactic against an inferior team (e.g. fast flanking in a tight formation against a team that is spread out in a thin line, and then eating through the dots like Pacman), but as an individual, that is rarely the case. The individual is rarely rewarded for being brave.

Generally, I find that I do much better if I just let someone else step into the line of fire first. Preferably the other team, but if it's someone on my team, that's ok too. The first guys to expose themselves tend to absorb more damage than they dish out, unless they are jump jetting with ERPPC+Gauss.

So just hang back, wait for someone else to take a beating. When either team perceives an advantage, having scored a couple of kills, they will rush forward, and this is your opening. Now it's safe to attack, because at this point, the enemy team will probably have some targets that are either damaged or under fire, and it's relatively safe to engage.

If you're a pugger, don't be a hero. Don't go first. You'll end the match with more kills and having done more damage if you let others soak up damage for you. If you're in a pre-made group, I guess you have to make some sacrifices now and again.

TL;DR - A timid approach earns you more XP and more C-bills. Don't go first.

PS: I'm playing devil's advocate here, obviously. I don't often follow my own advice, because I don't have the patience for it. But it's still true a lot of the time.

#2 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 05:42 PM

Also, in general zerging is bad. If you rush out ahead you will be focus-fired by 12 people, and nothing can take that. Sometimes you can push successfully in pugs, but only if you let your team know that you're doing it and then only if you pick the opportune moment to do so and are lucky at the pug lottery.

#3 Xeno Phalcon

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 05:54 PM

Fortune favors the bold, fortune favors the bold that has cover more.

#4 Toong

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:54 PM

I agree that this can work sometimes, but letting a man go down in the hopes that you can get some free shots on the people rushing in afterwards is a super dangerous thing to do. Being down a pilot will always put you at a tactical disadvantage.

#5 Earl White

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:22 AM

Bit of a bad attitude to have to be honest, if everyone thought this way no one would move at all, you have to have some "brave" folk to take the front unless you want to camp base every game. By all means, use cover available to you and avoid moving in open ground, but not attacking and making your allies do all the dirty work (spotting/taking first salvos) is a bit rotten.

#6 Troggy

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:41 AM

Let's take this point by point.

View PostAlistair Winter, on 31 August 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:


I dare say timidity is a great tactic, on the individual level. There may be cases where a team working together manages some daring tactic against an inferior team (e.g. fast flanking in a tight formation against a team that is spread out in a thin line, and then eating through the dots like Pacman), but as an individual, that is rarely the case. The individual is rarely rewarded for being brave.


If your goal is to have the highest point total when your team loses, on your team only, or if you believe that you are an insufficiently good player to consistently help control the flow of the match, this is probably true. However, this will almost certainly result in a ho-hum W/L stat. It will also often result in sub-optimal matches in the games where your team rolls the other team.

View PostAlistair Winter, on 31 August 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Generally, I find that I do much better if I just let someone else step into the line of fire first. Preferably the other team, but if it's someone on my team, that's ok too. The first guys to expose themselves tend to absorb more damage than they dish out, unless they are jump jetting with ERPPC+Gauss.


This is probably true in virtually all cases, however, attacking in sync with other is mutually beneficial as fire spread over multiple targets is much less effective than focused fire. This alone would be sufficient to explain the effectiveness of even groups as small as 4 people. If there are co-ordinated players in your game (you will notice when there are), it is almost always better to "follow their lead" so to speak. This gives you the opportunity to influence the match, and be aggressive, while offering much of the security of being timid.

View PostAlistair Winter, on 31 August 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

So just hang back, wait for someone else to take a beating. When either team perceives an advantage, having scored a couple of kills, they will rush forward, and this is your opening. Now it's safe to attack, because at this point, the enemy team will probably have some targets that are either damaged or under fire, and it's relatively safe to engage.


My philosophy of playing is that in a properly run match (even PUG) it should not come down to someone taking a beating. Find a group (in game, just look around), follow them, try to isolate enemy mechs who do something foolish, gain an early mech advantage, then join the slaughter. Play with your team, not against them. And don't be timid. The goal is to deal big damage by increasing both your survival time (by grouping) and contact time (by actually shooting the enemy), rather than just your survival time by hiding.

View PostAlistair Winter, on 31 August 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

If you're a pugger, don't be a hero. Don't go first. You'll end the match with more kills and having done more damage if you let others soak up damage for you. If you're in a pre-made group, I guess you have to make some sacrifices now and again.

TL;DR - A timid approach earns you more XP and more C-bills. Don't go first.

PS: I'm playing devil's advocate here, obviously. I don't often follow my own advice, because I don't have the patience for it. But it's still true a lot of the time.


Here, the advice breaks down pretty heavy for a couple reasons. 1) Dying early, quitting and dropping another mech is the way to make boatloads of c-bills. If you've admitted that you are unlikely to greatly influence the match, take a mech with huge DPS and try to corner a couple fools early. Earn your money, die in a flame of glory and move on. Being last left alive in a match that takes 12.5 minutes and in which your team ate lead the whole time is the worst possible way to make money.

Either you want to win, in which case you need to focus on strengthening the team organization, i.e. making a difference. Or you are more interested in your paycheck, in which case you wanna wreck stuff ASAP, then get out. Frankly, timidity gets you neither.

TL;DR: Timidity increases your survival time, it is unlikely to increase c-bills per hour, and even less likely to increase W/L rate. Generally it's terrible advice.

P.S. This all implies that you are not a zerg-rushing moron.

P.P.S. I'm not playing devil's advocate, this is my honest assessment of the game and how I try to play it.

--
Troggy

Edited by Troggy, 01 September 2013 - 10:43 AM.


#7 C E Dwyer

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:51 AM

if your a poor shot brawl, look for the moment that one closes and go with them, get in the other teams face and go down fighting, hanging back and lobbing lrms sounds safest and easiest but isn't going to get you much of anything unless your pug has some good players in it..

I was an awfull shot for ages, my first kills were in a brawling atlas, right in the opponents face..

timid is a big way to fail..control agression is the way to win

#8 Eisenhorne

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:51 AM

Depends entirely on your mech build and team composition.

If your a sniper heavy group, then you need to be actively poking around corners, trying to find new firing angles, taking shots, and fading back. Thats the best strategy.

If your in a brawler heavy group, then you need to hug cover HARD, and avoid being shot until your within very short distance of the enemy.

What you call being timid is often just making smart use of cover. Your supposed to wait until the enemy advances into your sights to fire, not the other way around. You can force the enemy to move 1 of 2 ways. First, you can trick him into thinking your somewhere else, and lie in wait for him. Second, you can cap the enemy base and force him to return to the base, so you know where he's going, and you can be ready for him. Advancing into an enemy who is ready for you is stupid.

Honestly, think about how you die usually in this game. When I die, its because I'm either poking my head out and getting blown apart by snipers, or its because I'm charging across a field to save my base or support a teammate. When I win, its because the ENEMY was poking his head out, or was running across an open area to save his base or his teammate.

TL, DR; Timidity to a point is an excellent tool, though I would call it patience.

#9 Training Instructor

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:09 AM

Don't encourage people to be bigger cowards than they already are.

#10 Raso

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:14 AM

You sound like all of the little punks who never follow through with kills on enemies with an exposed CT because their armor is yellow. You sound like those scared, little runts who would rather die lumped together along a ridge rather than run along side a small detachment to try to smoke the enemy out.

In short, you sound like a terrible team mate.

Maybe if it were a free for all your tactics would have merit but this isn't so they really don't. If you don't expose yourself to enemy fire (smartly, and carefully mind you) than you can not return fire. If you spend half the game behind a ridge than you're mech and all of it's firepower are just wasted tonnage. If you pilot an assault or a heavy and you don't advance on an enemy position with your team AND you hang back and block the egress of retreating mediums or heavies you are not only a coward but a threat to your team.

Timidness is not a tactic nor is it synonymous with caution or acting defensively. If you refuse to let your mech get a few dinks in it's armor just so you can live to the end of the match you're doing it wrong and your entire team will suffer for it.

#11 Appogee

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:53 AM

In my current level of Elo hell, timidity leaves me one of the only guys on my team still alive, after all the noobs on my team have got themselves killed cheaply and quickly.

Unfortunately, I then have to face a half dozen or more enemies by myself, and usually die soon after that. So, for me, timidity is not a profitable tactic.

Generally speaking, in PUG matches, if your team can be bold together (and isn't half stacked with noobs, who the matchmaker thinks you can compensate for as it averages your Elo) then you will win.

#12 Archon Adam Steiner

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 12:19 PM

Timidity is not admirable, and ultimately amounts to the primary goal being self-preservation at the cost of the team, and often at the cost of victory. This is a team strategy game, with more in common with chess than the average FPS.

When both teams sit behind rocks and only occasionally peek out to shoot (as often happens), nobody controls the game, they end up dragging out and being dull, and a win or loss can almost be chalked up to an accident as opposed to something intentional.

Playing with the average (note: average) pick-up player is an exercise in frustration. Many don't want to (or simply won't) listen to somebody trying to give directions, and so the 'every man for himself' attitude continues to prevail - timidity, as you call it. I fully understand that nobody wants to die, but that's a selfish attitude to have in a team game. Nobody is suggesting being reckless, but being assertive is both more engaging and more profitable when done properly. Playing 'hide behind the rock' provides no control over anything, and certainly does not make for compelling game play.

#13 aniviron

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 12:46 PM

While I don't advocate for timidity, I wonder how many of the people here who are arguing against hanging back are the same people who say "Mediums don't suck, you just have to follow your atlas and let him take the damage." Because that's what OP is suggesting, essentially.

#14 ManDaisy

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 12:53 PM

Horrible Horrible advise. All to often I see a dog pile in the mid center lava map, with everyone huddling together like sheep afraid to enter... when no one is ******* there on the other side.

#15 Omega MK1

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 02:17 PM

Screw that, simply put "LEMME LOVE YOU" in the chat and charge, you will get all the enemy team scared the sh** outta their pants


(i'm kidding)

Edited by Omega MK1, 01 September 2013 - 02:21 PM.


#16 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostRaso, on 01 September 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

In short, you sound like a terrible team mate.


Personally my favorite sort of teammate is a Highlander or 3D who obliterates everything from range and doesn't zerg. My favorite sort of opponent is someone who decides it's a good idea to take a peek over Coward's Ridge.

#17 Tezcatli

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 02:44 PM

Caution and patience is the best strategy when working alone. Because time and again I've tried to be aggressive only to find myself without any allies nearby. Typically because they decide to bail. So it's best to be patient and observe. Get an idea for how your team is working and wait for targets of opportunity. That's not to say you should let your firepower go to waste. Should try to stay in range to get into it.

#18 Tesunie

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 03:09 PM

This should be read with "timidity is not a tactic". Each has very good points, and each should be taken under consideration.

There is a time when a bold rush can crush the enemy. There are times when holding back a little longer can wear an opponent down over time more than they wear you down.

Each is a viable tactic and have many viable and possible plans that can happen with either tactic.

Knowing when to charge, and when to run/hide/wait are very important skills. Taken only to one extreme or the other is a problem, and often a blend of the two provides the most and best benefits.

Edited by Tesunie, 01 September 2013 - 03:11 PM.


#19 Skunk Wolf

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 03:19 PM

I've seen too many assaults lose matches for everybody by following these rules.

BIG GUNS TO THE FRONT.

How hard is that?

#20 Tanar

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 04:59 PM

being a medium brawler pilot i agree with the OP. my worst matches and quickest deaths is when i try to 1) support the guys making the intial push, 2) go with the group trying to flank the other team, 3) RTB to stop a cap while everyone else is sniping,4) go find the enemy lrm boat or 5) go to help a teammate in a 1v1. inevitably that person leaves once i arrive (cause now i'm there to take the damage while he escapes) or dies just before i get in range so now the atlas i was going to shoot while he's worrying about my teammate now turns all their weapons on me before i can get away (or he has 3 friends hidden by ecm around the corner)

on the other hand when i can control my natural impatience and wait until the first kill or two on either side, i can find the damaged mech on the other side and focus fire on them where medium mech firepower may be enough to take off that ac20 toting arm, or soften up that orange torso to red so the next friendly ppc/gauss round can finish it off, or save the teammate currently fighting the enemy but losing whoever ends up actually getting the kill. plus beyond the first couple of minutes most PUG teams ignore the flanks (cause if a light hasn;t come in the first two minutes clearly no one will try it afterwards :) ) so that's when you can sweep around and do some damage even if it's just you.

mediums are the vultures/jackals of the battlefield, find the guy who's hurt and go over to finish it and whatever you do- don;t aim at that untouched heavier mech cause you're gonna lose that one 9 times out of 10.you don;t want him to notice you so shoot at something that;s already hurt instead, maybe by the time that one's dead the untouched enemy mech will have been touched.

now if i'm in a non lrm boat/sniper assault then yeah i should be the one to lead the push cause if the assaults aren't leading a push no one else is going to be too eager to go first either. that lets the other side wlatz up to you in their preferred manner and hit you the way they want to. when you're getting hit from two or three sides because your whole team is waiting for someone to adavance, you're generally going to come out on the losing side of things.





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